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Test yourself for Free Will.
- Thread starter Greatest I am
- Start date
Kungfuzed
Student Nurse
Like a computer I'm subject to my anatomy (determined by my genes rather than a computer manufacturer) and input through my senses. A computer has a mouse, keyboard, disk drive, USB, and ethernet. I have eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and touch receptors. Of course, I'm much more autonomous than your average desktop computer. I also have more means for output. My body is the machine and the world is the user. When I reply it's really the whole universe replying. We're all interconnected. That's what the free will argument boils down to. Are our thoughts, feelings, and choices all determined by nature or is our mind separate from the universe and able to act on it's own?
Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, no it's not. People "giving up their free will" may have been predestined to do so. You have no way of determining whether they were or not. In fact, you have no way of determining whether or not you freely chose to post this thread.
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Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
I've always wondered about whether or not we have Free Will. I've thought that even if we have a portion of Free Will, we can only use it minimally.
The way I see it, is that Nature, existence and reality are the true erm..... "writers" of Will or decisions if you get what I mean. So that reality dictates to us what to think/do.
When was the last time you looked at the Sun and stared at it with wide-open eyes for as long as your heart wished? It hurts, and because it hurts, we no longer wish to it, so if one did originally want to look at the Sun, he can no longer, because of the limitations/circumstances of our design (like pain etc).
From my own experience, the element of pain dictates quite severely what we "enjoy" doing, or what we "want" to do. Which in my opinion is oppressive, but at the same time, without pain to limit and suppress us, I'm sure we'd loose the very essence of existence and we'd practically no longer be living in reality.
I don't think I've worded that properly, and I tend to drag on a bit LOL, but that's my 0.02.
The way I see it, is that Nature, existence and reality are the true erm..... "writers" of Will or decisions if you get what I mean. So that reality dictates to us what to think/do.
When was the last time you looked at the Sun and stared at it with wide-open eyes for as long as your heart wished? It hurts, and because it hurts, we no longer wish to it, so if one did originally want to look at the Sun, he can no longer, because of the limitations/circumstances of our design (like pain etc).
From my own experience, the element of pain dictates quite severely what we "enjoy" doing, or what we "want" to do. Which in my opinion is oppressive, but at the same time, without pain to limit and suppress us, I'm sure we'd loose the very essence of existence and we'd practically no longer be living in reality.
I don't think I've worded that properly, and I tend to drag on a bit LOL, but that's my 0.02.
EverChanging
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't even be responding to this post had I not happened to see your thread, so my decision was not completely free.
I simply cannot believe in free will. Our behavior is the result of genetic and environmental interactions, the product of a brain which is in turn the product of millions of years of evolution and subject to the laws of physics, biochemistry, and electricity. The brain is the machine. As far as I can tell, behavior is determined. The Illusion of Conscious Will by Daniel Wegner is a very good book on the subject.
I simply cannot believe in free will. Our behavior is the result of genetic and environmental interactions, the product of a brain which is in turn the product of millions of years of evolution and subject to the laws of physics, biochemistry, and electricity. The brain is the machine. As far as I can tell, behavior is determined. The Illusion of Conscious Will by Daniel Wegner is a very good book on the subject.
footprints
Well-Known Member
Free Will has two definitions, free will of the mind (some say spiritually), and free will of the body.
Free will of the body is confined by laws, personal ability, who has a power of hold over you that may force you against your free will of the mind.
Free will of the mind belongs to everybody, even if this free will tells you to give in, try a different path or sit back and rethink the whole situation. Free will can also tell a person not to give in, keep pressing the same path and don't stop and rethink because the answer is already clear.
Even a slave held in bondage, has free will of the mind. No master can own this, nor can any master force thier will over it, unlike the freewill of the body, where intelligence will tell a person when to go against their will, or to apply it.
footprints
Well-Known Member
So you are saying somebody else made the decision for you to post?
We are a product of our environment, it is the environment which generates our free will and the direction it travels in. It was your free will which made you post, a choice you made all by yourself in all probability. It was the environment which said you had to, for it wouldn't let you override your own free will of knowing you had a choice of posting or not. You must have felt it important to have your say or thought you had something to offer, and by your own free will, you did.
I am not a big fan of Wegner, attacking a symptom and not a root cause is something I do not consider very intelligent, in other words it is perception based, all from the premise of Wegners perception.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
While in theory, a plausible idea of testing free will, to willingly submit to another, but in reality, not a very good one.
EverChanging
Well-Known Member
No, I did not say someone else made me post. But had I not happened to glance at the thread, I wouldn't have posted. Had I not been inclined for various reasons to respond, I wouldn't have responded. As I said, behavior is the result of environmental and genetic interactions. It comes from a brain that is itself determined by the laws of physics, biochemistry, and electricity. No behavior occurs in a vacuum. Behavioral scientists can turn behavior on and off in a controlled environment.
Correct.
If the environment generates and determines the direction of free will, what's free about it?
If my free will made me post, again, I must ask, what's free about it?
On what basis do you claim that I posted of my own free will? Again, no behavior occurs in a vacuum. There is nothing supernatural about my behavior. Indeed, if free will existed, if I could make a choice free from my genes and environment, free from the laws of physics or my brain, there would possibly be no relation of my behavior to my environment, behavior would be unpredictable, behavioral psychology would therefore not exist, and behavior could not be modified as it is today by behavioral analysts. That would be a very dreary way to live, so I don't see why free will is preferable to determinism.
Actually, it is perception, subjective perception, that leads most people to believe that they have free will or the ability to choose, which is the subject of the book. If I were to reply purely on my subjective experiences, I would probably believe in free will, or at least some degree of free will. But my studies in psychology as well as what I've learned on my own about the brain, etc. tell me a totally different story: behavior is a natural phenomena in the universe, as natural and determined as a rock rolling down a hill.
The book I mentioned -- have you read it? -- cites many experiments that show that our perception of having the power to choose or having free will can be and often is flawed. This is not surprising -- our perceptions, even our vision, are often incomplete or biased. We can be fooled into thinking we willed an action we did not, or that we did not will an action that we did indeed perform.
If behavior is the result of environmental and genetic interactions and the result of a brain subject to the laws of physics, electricity, and biochemistry, where is the free will? If you, yourself, can make a choice (and it may be possible that the self is merely another subjective construct, that is, that it has no objective reality -- this is something I am still pondering) then who chose to make that choice? If you make a choice, you must have chosen to make that choice, and chosen to chosen to make that choice -- there is an infinite regress here.
Claiming that you performed an action because you chose to explains nothing at all. One thing I learned in behavior psychology is that when explaining behavior, it doesn't help to say, "She runs every day because she is self-disciplined." That explains nothing. It is circular logic. Why does she run every day? Because she is self-disciplined. And is she self-disciplined? Because she runs every day. That is what I mean by circular logic.
Likewise, saying that you did an action because you chose to explains nothing. Why does he play video games all day? Because he chose to. But why does he choose to? If there is free will, there is no reason other than that he made a choice, and the why and how remains a mystery, something supernatural. If there is no free will, even if we cannot know all of the factors determining the "choice," there is some logical explanation for the behavior -- ultimately more complex but no less determined than a rock rolling down a hill -- and this is a notion that psychology is based on.
So far, no one has provided any good definition of free will, nor do they explain how it works, or how a choice could be unrestrained by the forces that make us what we are.
Once again, I will list some of the problems I have found with free will:
If behavior is the result of genetic and environmental interactions, where is the room for choice?
If behavior is the product of the activity of a brain which is in turn subject to the laws of physics, etc., where is the room for choice?
No self, no Cartesian Theatre, has been found in the brain, so where is this "self" to make a decision?
If our perceptions are right, that we have free will, why has it been demonstrated in so many experiments that our perceptions are often flawed (not suprising since they are subjective)?
If behavior is the result of choice, why is it that behaviors can be turned on and off in a controlled environment?
And why do you assume that the activity of your brain and your behavior is not subject to the same laws of determinism (that is, events are caused by other events) that apply to the rest of the universe (as far as we know) on the macroscopic level?
EverChanging
Well-Known Member
Yes, exactly, and when our sense of self can change depending on our brain chemistry or even seem to disappear for a while (have you ever driven on a familiar route and don't remember part of the drive?), when we realize that there is no Cartesian Theatre in the brain, no "self" neurons, no part of the brain where consciousness "occurs," that all kinds of different activities are going on in the brain in different areas at the same time, who is to say that there IS a self to choose? Where is this self? What is this self?
I am beginning to suspect that "I" am everyone and everything, the entire universe -- my life is the unfolding of Shiva -- and yet "I" am no one and nothing.
EverChanging
Well-Known Member
This is an article that gives a little information about split brains and the possible implications for why we feel like we have free will: Split Brain Studies: One Mind per Hemisphere
You can learn about many such interesting experiences in much more depth in the book I previously mentioned, The Illusion of Conscious Will, by Daniel Wegner, and An Introduction to Consciousness by Susan Blackmore. Conversations on Consciousness is a much more brief introduction by Blackmore as well. There is also The Volitional Brain: Towards a Neuroscience of Free Will, which goes into depth about how the brain works and the effects of brain damage.
You can learn about many such interesting experiences in much more depth in the book I previously mentioned, The Illusion of Conscious Will, by Daniel Wegner, and An Introduction to Consciousness by Susan Blackmore. Conversations on Consciousness is a much more brief introduction by Blackmore as well. There is also The Volitional Brain: Towards a Neuroscience of Free Will, which goes into depth about how the brain works and the effects of brain damage.
The Enlightened One
Contrarian
N
By putting a Y, I would be bending to your will, so to speak, even if I chose to put a Y out of my own will. So to show you that I recognize my own free will, I started my reply out with an N because I chose to
By putting a Y, I would be bending to your will, so to speak, even if I chose to put a Y out of my own will. So to show you that I recognize my own free will, I started my reply out with an N because I chose to
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
It is not separate from reality and does choose on it's own.
Does nature voice moral tenets?
No. It has no morals.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
That is basically why I am not discussing definitions here and left the term free will open. That discussion is never ending.
As to you responding, sure, cause and effect were at play and I gave an opportunity to reply but the decission to was yours alone. No gain or lose either way from here.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
I agree that a mind cannot be controlled by an outside force.
Brainwashing aside that is.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
Are we confused?
Am I addressing everything or nothing?
If nothing then please do not respond. I do not want to also become confused.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
A frontal lobe operation seems to kill all desires.
No thanks.
it is desire that leads free will.
Regards
DL