EverChanging
Well-Known Member
I did not claim that free will is the same as unlimited possibilities, for the record.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Test yourself for Free Will.
- Thread starter Greatest I am
- Start date
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
You can only exercise what you admit to yourself as having.
If you think you cannot make a choice then you will not even try.
I don't think humans have free will, but I do know that it feels like free will. Without my thoughts about free will I could have given you the Y as well. (In fact, I did by using the word "You")
Either way, you exercised your free will.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
Was it a free choice that you made to believe that free will is an illusion that only seems to be an illusion or was that idea imposed by some other illusion that is not what it seems?
Regards
DL
Name one illusion.
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
Sweet. How about the refraction of light under water that makes objects appear to bend?
Light refraction exists.
Regards
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
You have shown a principle of science of a real effect.
You have yet to show an illusion.
Regards
DL
It is an illusion, and it is a real effect.
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
This is exactly my position too. But notice how we both sneak that "virtually" in there. Is that just hopeful thinking? Is there a part of us that really hopes that we can flip the universe the bird all by ourselves? And what are we saying when we say "virtually"? --that we believe there are some actions that could possibly be uncaused. Can you think of any action that could be uncaused? It really is a bit unfathomable. Personally, I think the "virtually" is put in there, not because there really is a possibility of some action being "free", but because we want to believe that there is.
footprints
Well-Known Member
I completely agree with what you are saying and understand what you are saying.
Now I hope you can understand what I am saying. We do not have the knowledge nor the technology to do a brain replacement. Nor do we have the knowledge or the technology in order to transfer my knowledge gained from life experience into the brain of another person. These are still both works in progress. Depending on the nature of the impairment, some people do not have free will and will not have until such time as we gain in knowledge and technology ourselves.
Have you ever dealt with a trauma victim? Rape, physical or mental abuse? Have you ever had to counsel a mother who has just witnessed her child being run over and bounced like a ball beneath the vehicle of a drunken driver?
If you have, then you would also know, the first thing you must do is overcome your own emotions. You cannot let your own emotional feelings or opinions get in the way, you cannot show them or express them in any way shape or form. Not even in an off the cuff statement. To do so would immediately defeat the purpose of the conselling session. Even a show of empathy or sympathy, can justify to the victim why their feelings are right, why they should keep them, and why they are normal. A person tied up in their own emotional issues cannot possibly help another person overcome theirs.
I will tell you up front, the first thought that enters my head each time I deal with such a victim (which also aligns with the majority of my peers) is I would love to see the perpretrator(s) strung up and given the most slow and painful death possible. That is my strongest desire. Commonsense and reason must now come into play, I have to overcome these emotions in order to help another person overcome theirs. I overcome these emotions by a greater knowledge, in the back of my mind, I also know the perpetrator(s) also have a very serious mental issue.
Rational reasoning, is one thing which can overcome desires. Stopping the brain, normally I suggest counting to ten very slowly or taking a short walk, before answering and reacting to anything. This gives the brain a chance to think rationally and evaluate choices. How we react and the speed we react with, to anything, is just a habit, all it means is replacing one habit with another habit.
Simply because we are free to change it, anytime we have a will to do so. We are not stuck in a quagmire of our own personal life experience, unless we choose not to change it, or don't know that it can be changed.
Helping a traumatised rape victim, doesn't take away the past history of the rape. What it does is helps a person overcome this life experience which they have gained and the trauma it caused their emotions. This is so they can move on with their life and put the bad experience behind them and not having it affect nearly every aspect of their life. If done correctly, the victim isn't looking for revenge or carrying a hatred, they will only have pity and remorse for the perpetrator. We are not stuck in the quagmire that life dishes out to us, unless we ourselves decide to keep it.
In order to release a traumatised person from the comfort zone they build around them, you need to extend the comfort zone in which they feel comfortable, eventually taking this to the full spectrum of the society around them. The same though applies to everyone, not just trauma victims.
It is impossible (down lines of decency and respect) for a person to change a person against a persons will, irrespective of how much education and training the person may have. If a person doesn't want to be changed, if they don't believe they need to change, there is very little anybody can do for them. In most cases a person has to reach rock bottom, before they see the need to change, and only then can we begin to help, that is if suicide or some other option doesn't seem the better option to them.
The manipulation techniques used by psychologist and behavioural scientists have been known by the general public at large for a long period of time. Most patients will pick these techniques immediately and put up barriers to protect themselves, I have even had patients who have tried to use these same techniques on me. If you have ever watched the movie Good Will Hunting, a classical example. Business, particularly sales, marketing and advertising use these manipulation techniques, political movements use them, trade unions use them, parents use them on children and even children use them on other children, and why a lot of the value has been removed from them, people are all to aware. As a matter of fact where psychology is concerned, most people expect them and are looking for them. LOL some people even find them when they are not there, I for one refuse to use manipulation techniques, my belief and opinon, they are only for fools and idiots.
In psychology and behavioural science we have more losses than wins. The good news is, we have more partial successes than we have losses. The prime reason for this is the environment will defeat us nearly everytime. You can place a person on the right track believe they are doing fine, then they go straight back to the place which created the problem for them in the first place, and if it isn't the same place it is one that very similar if not identical. The problem isn't really in people, it is in the society which generates the problem in people.
footprints
Well-Known Member
That is one way of looking at it. Another way is the person had a choice of who to listen to and take advice from.
A persons peers only play a large part in shaping a persons behaviour, if the said person allows the peers to play a large part in it.
It all pertains to way a person relates and associates. We pretty much need to go back to Freud here. Although Freud ended up being on the wrong track, he was on the right track in the fact that words were related to and associated to, in different ways by different people. This in turn paved way for greater insight and further investigation into human perception, how it is born and how it is formed as it pertains to the environment. There is a very good reason why most countries have made it a law that any advertisement on television must be able to be differentiated from the television show they are watching, or why an advertisement in print media must not appear as a news item.
What evidence?
Any psychologist or behavioural scientist who deals with real people. In order to help people with emotional problems and issues, you must first overcome your own emotional issues as they pertain to the patients problems.
Judges, solicitors (lawyers) are other people who do this. A solictor who defends a child molestor, isn't defending the person because they believe it is okay to molest a child. They push these feelings and issues to the side and do the job required of them. Judges face such issues everyday in their courtrooms, they must above all remain impartial and not let their own emotions carry them off into extremism. The general public do this enough, without our reasoned people doing it as well.
What you are is a product of your environment. You have free will to change the effects of your environment any time you yourself choose to. We do have the knowledge and the technology to enable you to do this. Up to you whether you exercise this right or not.
One of the big problems with modern society is the speed at which knowledge is processed. Modern education and society are the reasons for this, we have come to a period in time where faster now means more intelligent. Which is pretty dumb really, considering we know that speed has nothing to do with intelligence, and is related to habit, but that is human intelligence for you.
Human intelligence is the very essence of our survival instinct. It is the one thing which makes us top of the food chain. Without intelligence we would be fodder for many animals.
In order to see that we make conscious decisions all the time, the brain must be slowed down. Stop it from working so fast. For many people with issues, I will often ask them to get into the habit of counting to ten very slowly, or even going for a walk. Slow the brain down, think about all the consequences of the reaction, then make a rational decision.
We do not do anything without consciously thinking about it first, the speed this happens at though may be so fast, that it will appear to people like it was a spontaneous or automatic reaction which we had no control over. The simple fact is we do have control over it, we just first have to see it, to recognise it.
Last edited:
EverChanging
Well-Known Member
The idea has taken hold with me as a result of my studying and thinking about the issue, and my inclination to study philosophical issues is not an inclination I chose to have. Try as I might, I have never had the ability to shut off my thinking, even when it ripped apart my most cherished beliefs, even when I wished to repress the thoughts. So do forces beyond myself lead me to various ideas, some true, and some false? Of course. This is not a reason to completely reject a human's capacity to reason, however -- technological progress and science prove that.
It isn't a far stretch to think that even my own thoughts are beyond my control -- random thoughts occur to me spontaneously all of the time. I didn't choose to have the thoughts -- they just pop into my head.
EverChanging
Well-Known Member
I do not counsel, but that is what I am studying to do. I completely understand why you feel angry at the perpetrators of such cruelty -- it is a natural human reaction. And I understand that your strong emotions are overridden by reason, counting, or however you deal with it. But even then, you have training, knowledge in your background to help you deal with these emotions, and you calm yourself. Your strongest desire -- to deal with these powerful emotions in a more positive manner (it wouldn't be wise to go out and kill the perpetrators) is the one that wins out. You are able to do this because of your background. Perhaps someone else with a different background wouldn't be able to. But this action of calming your mind, this is brought on by your current situation and thinking about the best way to deal with it -- that is, calming yourself is an action that is preceded by an event that calls for you to take that action -- namely, your desire to counsel and help another human being. Your strongest desire wins out and conquers even your most brutal instincts because you wish to help someone. Once again, this action is preceded by a situation that calls for it, and you have the background and experience to do it, so I would not think this is an example of free will.
Key phrase: anytime we have a will to do so. We can do what we will, but we can't will what we will. Even if we will to conquer some strong emotion, did you choose to have that desire? Or choose to choose that desire? As I have pointed out many times in my posts, this leads to an infinite regress.
Okay, I can see that. Certainly we don't have the knowledge or means, even if we did have all of the knowledge, to control every aspect of a person's behavior. That doesn't mean other forces are not at work. As you said, "the environment will defeat us nearly every time."
EverChanging
Well-Known Member
Again, where does this choice come from? How can an action be uncaused? How can one choose to choose? Choose to choose to choose? How can an action be uncaused?
Your point about advertisements and their influence on us merely emphasizes my point that everything about our behavior and our thoughts is caused. My choices come down to who I am. Who I am is genetic and environmental interactions, and my actions come from a brain that is shaped by evolution and whose activity is determined by the laws of physics, biochemistry, and electricity. I simply cannot see where there can be any free will, or how, or even why we should want it, really. Uncaused actions would be random, spontaneous, and we wouldn't fare well in our environment if such were the case. Every action is brought on by a previous event. I think where our fundamental disagreement lies is whether humans and human behavior are separate from nature or not. I do not think they are.
Yes, but judges, lawyers, psychologists, and behavioral psychologists have another, stronger motivation for overcoming powerful emotions: they have a job to do. Their desire to do their job or help another person, combined with their training, in the end rules the day. Again, their actions of setting aside their emotions follow from previous events: their desire to do their job, help others, etc. Their behavior of setting aside their emotions did not occur in a vacuum. It wasn't some free and uncaused behavior. It is directly related to what they wish to do. We can do what we will, but not will what we will. For emphasis, I repeat: can we choose our will? And if we can choose our will, how do we choose to choose our will? How do we choose to choose? Or choose to choose to choose? Infinite regress. I know I'm getting repetitive here, but I'm trying to make a point. It's a very simple point, but it can be hard to comprehend because it defies most people's subjective experiences, but anyone with even passing understanding of psychology knows that our own perceptions can be very flawed.
And why would I want to change my environment unless something about my environment compelled me to want to change it? If my environment were perfect, I would have no motivation to do so. It is adverse conditions in my environment that would compel me to change it. If I then proceed to change my environment, my action is directly related to previous events. It is not a free or uncaused action.
Actually, it is well known, and I have experienced it, that when a person burns their hand on the stove, (s)he withdraws it before (s)he even feels the heat. We also blink many times a day, without thinking about it at all. We breathe without having to think about it. As I'm typing right now, I am not consciously willing every individual stroke of my fingers: it occurs automatically. There are many examples of automatic behavior.
Last edited:
EverChanging
Well-Known Member
I can't understand why the concept of free will is such a complicated issue....
To the Christian the concept is as simple as , God gave us free will to accept Him or reject Him. It's just a matter of choice.
Not everyone is Christian, and not everyone believes in supernatural gods, or any god concepts at all.
Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
Well... if it's true that the "virtually" is just wishfull thinking on our half (which may very-well be the case), then what enviromental/Hormonal/Instinctive facet of our Psychology is making both of us atleast have this wishfull thinking, and making us both say "virtually"?
The only thing I could think of would be if there is some fundamental aspect of our Psychology that.... perhaps instinctively forces us to maintain a positive mental outlook/state, via such things as ignorance. How often do we close off all the negative aspects of the species and the planet, and just focus on our own little families and lives?
When they say "ignorance is bliss", maybe our instincts or subconscious knows this to be true also, and deliberately makes us isolate our perspectives to enable us to "shut off" all the negative in the World and focus more on our own "little World" - if you get what I mean?
Purely for the sake of survival, perhaps by maintainence of a healthy, happy Psychology?
Last edited: