How Important is Sexual Morality to a Nation?

Irenicas · Jul 28, 2008

I don't think "sexual morality", as you call it, should be singled out. It is, as far as I am concerned, part of the basic freedoms and liberties of a civilisation.
How people treat sex and sexual experience varies greatly within society, and that is what makes a society healthy (if not in the way that most people use that word. Healthy - more likely to survive). If I believe one thing, and you believe another, and we can both "get on" enough to live in the same society... that society is flourishing.
Forcing another to do anything is repulsive. Sex is just one of them, but I agree a particularly distasteful one. Rape is an appalling act of repression (repressing the individual being raped, often for the rest of their lives) and pedophilia is always rape because a child cannot make an informed decision about sex, something they don't understand (agian, paedophillia is not what most people think it is - paedophillia pertains specifically to pre-pubescent individuals).

Do what thou wilt, ere it harm none. Harm's a tricky one to define as well...

As always, it's the definition that comes as a stumbling block.

MysticSang'ha · Jul 28, 2008

Charity said:
If the immorality is rape, incest, child porn, prostitution, youth sold into sex slavery to the highest bidder then I believe you can expect a nation to fall. If you were speaking liberty for all of the people, where would liberty be for the victims of rape, incest, and child porn if these crimes were allowed to go unpunished? Natural resources are always very important to any country or nation.....But the moral decay of a nation has usually resulted in it's downfall..............:sad:

I disagree that everything you mentioned is not a part of sexual immorality, but exploitation by another party. I think we're talking about fornication, homosexuality, sex outside of marriage, etc.

Sunstone · Jul 28, 2008

Dunemeister said:
It was actually the loss of discipline that was the problem, which far outweighed the problem of soil fertility. One of the symptoms of the loss of discipline was the degeneration of sexual ethics. Other symptoms included the corruption of the legal system, the proliferation of mystery cults, and the erosion of military effectiveness.

The corruption of the legal system began as far back as the Republic though.

Charity · Jul 28, 2008

MysticSang'ha said:
I disagree that everything you mentioned is not a part of sexual immorality, but exploitation by another party. I think we're talking about fornication, homosexuality, sex outside of marriage, etc.

I was going on the assumption that it would be sexual immorality on the part of society if we let any thing go unpunished that violates another by a sexual act. It would be like we condoned the act, that would make us immoral. Would rape or incest be any less immoral than fornication? Not trying to argue, just asking your opinion.....

Sunstone · Jul 28, 2008

Dunemeister said:
I was only saying that discipline is more important than freedom. The USA has a lot of freedom, but it's not America's freedom that makes it successful. It's America's discipline.

I think the notion that discipline is more important than freedom is both a false dichotomy and to, whatever extent it might be taken seriously, is historically inaccurate. For instance: The Spartans were known for their remarkable discipline, but it is their rival, the freer Athenians, who had the much greater impact on Western civilization.

Again, in the 1930s and 40s, the Germans were a far more disciplined society than the Americans, but the Americans and their allies won the Second World War.

But those examples almost assume discipline is incompatible with freedom -- whereas it is not.

Jeremy Mason · Jul 28, 2008

I think the question should be, "How does sexual responcibilty effect a nation?' STD's can have a major impact on a nation.

angellous_evangellous · Jul 28, 2008

Sunstone said:
I think the notion that discipline is more important than freedom is both a false dichotomy and to, whatever extent it might be taken seriously, is historically inaccurate. For instance: The Spartans were known for their remarkable discipline, but it is their rival, the freer Athenians, who had the much greater impact on Western civilization.

Again, in the 1930s and 40s, the Germans were a far more disciplined society than the Americans, but the Americans and their allies won the Second World War.

But those examples almost assume discipline is incompatible with freedom -- whereas it is not.

These sentiments are just too generalized, Phil.

The Athenians valued Spartan discipline, they just didn't apply it as bloody strict. And a great reason why they had so much impact on the West is the discipline of Alexander's army and then the idealization of Athens by the Romans.

Also, WWII era USA is the most disciplined time of our heritage. We were rationing everything at home, almost everyone worked toward the war effort in some way, and freedoms were greatly reduced if not completely denied for major groups of American citizens.

Sunstone · Jul 28, 2008

Dunemeister said:
It was actually the loss of discipline that was the problem, which far outweighed the problem of soil fertility.

We'll need to agree to disagree on this one.

angellous_evangellous · Jul 28, 2008

Dunemeister said:
It was actually the loss of discipline that was the problem, which far outweighed the problem of soil fertility. One of the symptoms of the loss of discipline was the degeneration of sexual ethics. Other symptoms included the corruption of the legal system, the proliferation of mystery cults, and the erosion of military effectiveness.

Can you prove that Romans ever had sexual ethics?:thud:

Sunstone · Jul 28, 2008

angellous_evangellous said:
These sentiments are just too generalized, Phil.

The Athenians valued Spartan discipline, they just didn't apply it as bloody strict. And a great reason why they had so much impact on the West is the discipline of Alexander's army and then the idealization of Athens by the Romans.

Also, WWII era USA is the most disciplined time of our heritage. We were rationing everything at home, almost everyone worked toward the war effort in some way, and freedoms were greatly reduced if not completely denied for major groups of American citizens.

The point is the Spartans were more disciplined than the Athenians as a society. Or that the Germans were more disciplined than the Americans.

Nessa · Jul 28, 2008

Sunstone said:
The point is the Spartans were more disciplined than the Athenians as a society. Or that the Germans were more disciplined than the Americans.

I think it's hard to determine which society was more disciplined in WW II. And England and Russia certainly deserve their due recognition. But I think you have made a compelling argument :

Sunstone said:
I think the notion that discipline is more important than freedom is both a false dichotomy

angellous_evangellous · Jul 28, 2008

Sunstone said:
The point is the Spartans were more disciplined than the Athenians as a society. Or that the Germans were more disciplined than the Americans.

Yes, I don't think that you can quantify that point in any meaningful way. Had the Athenians been significantly less disciplined than the Spartans, the Romans would not have idealized them, and had the Americans been meaningfully less disciplined than the Germans (and other enemies in WWII), they would have lost the war. Soundly.

angellous_evangellous · Jul 28, 2008

Nessa said:
I think it's hard to determine which society was more disciplined in WW II. And England and Russia certainly deserve their due recognition. But I think you have made a compelling argument :

Well, because he cannot qualify the first statement, the second one loses much of its force.

America - along with Britain and other free societies - had to significantly decrease freedoms in order to maintain and cultivate discipline.

Panda · Jul 28, 2008

Sunstone said:
Do you know of any societies which rose or fell in any significant way because of whatever sexual morality was prevalent in the society?

For instance, was the sexual morality prevalent in ancient Babylon in any significant way responsible for either the rise or fall of that society? Again, was the sexual morality prevalent in ancient Athens in any significant way responsible for either the rise or fall of that society? Or again, was the sexual morality prevalent in ancient Rome in any significant way responsible for the rise or fall of that society?

Ahh I see what you mean now. I don't think sex had much to do with the collapse of these empires.
My feelings are that if all party's involved are giving their informed consent there is nothing wrong with it.

Mike182 · Jul 28, 2008

maro said:
sexual morality is how one can differentiate between a civilized human society and the jungle.....

according to you i am sexually immoral, so in what ways do i act as if i were socialised in a jungle than in a human society?

MysticSang'ha · Jul 28, 2008

Mike182 said:
according to you i am sexually immoral, so in what ways do i act as if i were socialised in a jungle than in a human society?

That's OK, Mike :hug:. I can be considered immoral, too, because I'm an uppity woman who really really really really really really REALLY likes sex......

......a lot......

.......bunches and bunches.

And in some circles, it's thought that women shouldn't enjoy sex that much because such a woman isn't marriageable.

blackout · Jul 28, 2008

What?! No tomatoes?

Nessa · Jul 28, 2008

MysticSang'ha said:
That's OK, Mike :hug:. I can be considered immoral, too, because I'm an uppity woman who really really really really really really REALLY likes sex......

......a lot......

.......bunches and bunches.

And in some circles, it's thought that women shouldn't enjoy sex that much because such a woman isn't marriageable.

But do you love sex ?

McBell · Jul 28, 2008

UltraViolet said:
What?! No tomatoes?

MysticSang'ha · Jul 28, 2008

Nessa said:
But do you love sex ?

Oh, just a little bit.

How Important is Sexual Morality to a Nation?

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