Did Jesus say he was God???

[rocketman]

If you actually take the Bible, read it, and put everything in it's proper context, you will clearly see that Jesus is neither God, nor did he ever claim to be.

UnityNow, what is your interpretation of John 1:1,14 ?

v1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

v14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. "

I'm not asking you to agree with the conclusions of the 'one' argument, but can you at least see why some people think this way?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The fact remains...Jesus never claimed to be God and prayed to something GREATER than him. We can either choose to ignore this or openly embrace it. How can Jesus expect everyone to worship him as God when he never said or implied such a thing? If you believe him to be God Almighty, then fine. But to imply that people are somehow missing something by not believing him to be is putting too much faith in man's words..People have told you that Jesus is God. It did not come from reading the Bible or out of Jesus' own mouth. That is the only thing that bothers me about this whole argument. If you actually take the Bible, read it, and put everything in it's proper context, you will clearly see that Jesus is neither God, nor did he ever claim to be. It is man that has propped him up to such a level.

And I totally agree......

 

[Luke_17:2]

Jesus did claim to be God.

Jesus did pray to Someone greater then Him -the Father.

Why? Because Jesus put Himself, willingly, in subordination to the Father. Jesus was God in the flesh. But as He was in the flesh, the Father was greater then Him.

 

[UnityNow101]

I can see why some would believe it to be that way. That is why everything has to put in proper context...The Word was made flesh in Jesus Christ. Nobody is denying that. Jesus had the Word of God, or a God-given message, to bring to humanity.

With John 1, I do understand how people could take this differently then I have. But you have to remember the context of what is being said...It is written by John and never comes from the lips of Jesus Christ. This is very important. The Word of God is the message. Sure, it may seem that you can equate Jesus with the Almighty in that passage, but there are many others that are a lot harder for you to wiggle out of that have been brought forth in this thread, including, but no limited to...
Numbers 23:19... 19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
John 20:17... 17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Jesus did claim to be God.

Great... Now you must show the scripture where he made such a claim.

Jesus did pray to Someone greater then Him -the Father.

So Yeshua prayed to the "Father".....So who is the "Father"?

Tell us why God would pray to hmself.

Why? Because Jesus put Himself, willingly, in subordination to the Father.

Then this seems to void your theory that Yeshua was God...not to mention he gave a clear proof numerous times he wasn't. If Yeshua was subordinate then he was separate. Also remember in heaven he had his own will and he said he was sent, not by his will but the will of the father (God). So now you may have to show us chapter and verse where Yeshua said (It was his will to become subordinate to himself)....

Jesus was God in the flesh

Actually, he was God's word in the flesh...I mean that is what the writer of John says. It's all in my previous post incase you missed it.

But as He was in the flesh, the Father was greater then Him.

You first may need to demostrate him being God in the flesh. Can you tell us why Yeshua says he has a god? Are you in a position to inform us why God would pray to himself. Can you tell us why this supposed God did not know everything?

You're bible thumping with no scripture.........I thought you'd come back with something new for us to ponder over but I guess not.........

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I can see why some would believe it to be that way. That is why everything has to put in proper context...The Word was made flesh in Jesus Christ. Nobody is denying that. Jesus had the Word of God, or a God-given message, to bring to humanity.

With John 1, I do understand how people could take this differently then I have. But you have to remember the context of what is being said...It is written by John and never comes from the lips of Jesus Christ. This is very important. The Word of God is the message. Sure, it may seem that you can equate Jesus with the Almighty in that passage, but there are many others that are a lot harder for you to wiggle out of that have been brought forth in this thread, including, but no limited to...
Numbers 23:19... 19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
John 20:17... 17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Again, I agree. I thought he would atleast come back with something that was new to us....It is quite clear to me what the "word" was and that is why I listed those quotes from John. I think sometimes people zero in on one thing but may not read back or beyond what they're on. In the case of John 1:1 and 14 there's really no place to go but forwward. The writer gave his commentary and that, to me, is put in to perspective when Yeshua confirms that he brings a word from God.....

John 7:16
Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His
who sent Me.

Joh 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

Joh 14:24
"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word
which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

John 17:14
I have given them your word;and the world has hated them (God's word) because they (God's word - not Yeshua or Yeshua's word) are not of the world, even as I (Yeshua) am not of the world.


It's like saying the representative in congress is the voice of the people. Does he speak with thousands of voices and languages? No......But he is one in purpose with the people and speaks on their behalf. Yeshua is NO different........

 

[Super Universe]

UnityNow, what is your interpretation of John 1:1,14 ?

v1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

v14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. "

I'm not asking you to agree with the conclusions of the 'one' argument, but can you at least see why some people think this way?

The Word is math.

 

[Super Universe]

Jesus did claim to be God.

Kind sir, could you please explain more why you believe this?

 

[rocketman]

I can see why some would believe it to be that way. That is why everything has to put in proper context...The Word was made flesh in Jesus Christ. Nobody is denying that. Jesus had the Word of God, or a God-given message, to bring to humanity.

I am very glad that you can at least understand why some people hold a different view to yourself. I have a lot of respect for your view as it was my view for a very long time. My take on John 1:1 is with an emphasis on 'was God' rather than an emphasis on 'word'. I choose to do that because of the teaching of the Jewish Shema. (Deut 6:4)

Sure, it may seem that you can equate Jesus with the Almighty in that passage, but there are many others that are a lot harder for you to wiggle out of that have been brought forth in this thread, including, but no limited to...

Actually there hasn't been a single scripture quoted so far that has troubled me.

Numbers 23:19... 19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

In Gen 3:8 the YHWH walked in the garden of Eden. Therefore, Num23:19 to me is merely stating that God is not a sinful man in the way that we are.

John 20:17... 17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Technically this is exactly what I would expect Jesus to say. I mean no disrespect, but I struggle to see how it is that people who bring up these scriptures (with well meaning) in turn actually understand the God is One argument. Perhaps I only have myself to blame for that.

 

[Luke_17:2]

Great... Now you must show the scripture where he made such a claim.

John 8:58:

"Before Abraham was I Am" -The Jews were ready to stone Him for that one. Why would they? Because that's blasphemy -unless the person saying it was God, or God in the flesh as the case may be.

Then of course there's the part where He allowed Thomas to worship Him...

I tell you, if He wasn't God in the flesh, He was nuts.

So Yeshua prayed to the "Father".....So who is the "Father"?

Are you kidding?

You know very well who the Father is. At least who I mean.

Tell us why God would pray to hmself.

Are you trying to apply human reasoning to God?

Are you a scientist or a Christian?

Don't answer "both" because science doesn't answer into Theology or Christology. The Bible says (God speaking), "My ways are not your ways..." -Human reasoning doesn't enter into the equation.

But the simple (and Boblical) answer is that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh (God as the spirit was still in heaven) -Jesus was bound by physical laws because of the flesh. He said Himself that His power is of the Father. So, he Had to pray.

Then this seems to void your theory that Yeshua was God...

What in God's name do you mean by theory?

This isn't science class.

And it's not mine anyway; it's what the Bible says:

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. -Hebrews 1:8

Oh, gee; the Father addressed the Son as God.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. -I Timothy 3:16[/QUOTE]

Oh, gee: the Bible says Jesus was God was manifest in the flesh!

not to mention he gave a clear proof numerous times he wasn't. If Yeshua was subordinate then he was separate.

Of course He was! He's the second person of the Trinity (do you believe in that?)! God manifest in the flesh!

He was God manifest in the flesh; not God.

Also remember in heaven he had his own will and he said he was sent, not by his will but the will of the father (God). So now you may have to show us chapter and verse where Yeshua said (It was his will to become subordinate to himself)....

Yes, He was sent by the Father. I'm not denying that.

Actually, he was God's word in the flesh...I mean that is what the writer of John says. It's all in my previous post incase you missed it.

He was the Son of God, he carried God's Word in the flesh.

Can you tell us why this supposed God did not know everything?

"Only the Father knows the day and the hour..."

Nope. He's God: I'm one of His creation; how can I know everything about Him?

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

You're bible thumping with no scripture.........I thought you'd come back with something new for us to ponder over but I guess not.........

My previous post was a bump -I, as a Christian, have things that rank above trying to convince you of the deity of Christ (soul-winnin for one)! I was planning to post a full reply later. I just did.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Are you trying to apply human reasoning to God?

Are you a scientist or a Christian?

Don't answer "both" because science doesn't answer into Theology or Christology. The Bible says (God speaking), "My ways are not your ways..." -Human reasoning doesn't enter into the equation.

:biglaugh:

I'm trying to decide whether this is special pleading used in desparation to defend an undefendable position, or whether you actually believe that any sort of attempt at rational comprehension of theology is futile. If the latter, I'm having trouble trying to figure out why you're posting here, apparently trying to convince people of your position.

At the very least, I commend you on having the courage to publicly declare that your beliefs are irrational.

But the simple (and Boblical) answer is that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh (God as the spirit was still in heaven) -Jesus was bound by physical laws because of the flesh. He said Himself that His power is of the Father. So, he Had to pray.

If it's Boblical, you're reading the book of another religion.

 

[Luke_17:2]

:biglaugh:

I'm trying to decide whether this is special pleading used in desparation to defend an undefendable position, or whether you actually believe that any sort of attempt at rational comprehension of theology is futile. If the latter, I'm having trouble trying to figure out why you're posting here, apparently trying to convince people of your position.

First of all, this was an exchange between two Christians -not a Christian and an Atheist. We were discussing doctrine.

Secondly, no matter who were part of the conversation, you inserted yourself into it. That's quite rude.

Thirdly, what I said was not directed against his question -it was against the way he fielded it. I gave an answer to his question

You can get lost, now. -Woops, I forgot: you already are!

At the very least, I commend you on having the courage to publicly declare that your beliefs are irrational.

Irrational? From an Atheist?

No comment.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

First of all, this was an exchange between two Christians -not a Christian and an Atheist. We were discussing doctrine.

So logic doesn't apply?

Secondly, no matter who were part of the conversation, you inserted yourself into it. That's quite rude.

You're posting in an open forum. There's a 1-on-1 debates section and private messaging for conversations between two people.

Thirdly, what I said was not directed against his question -it was against the way he fielded it. I gave an answer to his question

You answered it in a way that's an affront to religious scientists from Newton to present day. If you're going to claim something like "science doesn't answer into Theology or Christology", you have to back it up with something. There's an inscription on the ceiling of the rotunda of the Royal Ontario Museum that sums up the philosophy behind generations of science: "That all may know His work". If you believe that God is the intelligent creator of the Universe and everything in it, then the study of all God's Creation (which can also be called "science") is a way to learn a bit of the mind of God... in some cases, it can actually border on worship. Many intelligent people through history believed that science and theology were inexorably linked; what reason do you have to take the opposing viewpoint?

 

[Muffled]

Is Jesus God in the flesh?

Sure... why not!
and so are you...
if God abides within you!

Even Dre believes that God is within the prophets to the extent of providing them their words. In this sense all the messengers are the same because they all speak the word of God whether directly or indirectly.

The difference is in actions. The Christian has God in control keeping Him from sin but even the best of us have trouble keeping God in control because we prefer to control things ourselves. Jesus does not have a human spirit vying for control and therefore is without sin.

Salvation is not the issue. It is a question of whether God loves us enough to die for us on the cross. I was impressed to know that someone died on the cross for me when I was young and didn't know him but it had no impact on my life. Knowing that God loves me has a much greater impact on my life because I know I can trust Him.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Part 1

John 8:58:

"Before Abraham was I Am" -The Jews were ready to stone Him for that one. Why would they? Because that's blasphemy -unless the person saying it was God, or God in the flesh as the case may be.

I knew it......I knew you, like most christians would try to use that verse. I will say it again. 8:58 in WHOLE has nothing......NOTHING to do with Yeshua claiming to be God. That whole chapter he sets himself separate from God. As I've previously explained, he admits he existed before the world was. This is mentioned in his LONG WINDED PRAYER to God in chapeter 17 of the SAME BOOK (John).....Now it wasn't until AFTER he told them he existed before their beloved Abraham they wanted to kill him. What, do you feel God broke off a piece of himself, taught it what to say, commanded it what to say and sent it to earth....? Here's a breakdown for you in chapter 8.

for I am not alone, but I and the Father (GOD) that sent me.

and the Father (GOD) that sent me beareth witness of me.

I do nothing of myself; but as my Father (GOD) hath taught me, I speak these things.

And he (GOD) that sent me is with me (In spirit and in purpose): the Father (GOD) hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him (GOD).

This one is nice... He has not left me. If Yeshua was God how could God leave him? Who was Yeshua pleasing if he is God?

I speak that which I have seen (with) my Father (GOD)

Sounds sparate to me here.

I have heard of God

we have one Father, even God.
"WE (he include himself)" have one common source.....God...for I proceeded forth and came (from God); neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

In heaven with his own will....Remember now the physical body didn't exist in heaven.

but I honour my Father

His father who is also our father..And the father is God. If you're going to look at these basic statements to try and make them appear esoteric then it will do you no good. These are made clear and straight to the point. Up to this point the people there are still listening to him and have not yet tried to kill him so he continues.....

And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth

it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his (GOD's) saying.

This is just in chapter 8 alone. Not once do we find a statement where he says he is God or that he and God are equal.

Then of course there's the part where He allowed Thomas to worship Him...

Thomas not believing Yeshua was alive saw him and esclaimed "my god!"

If you notice most scholars and linguist render that verse in english with an esclamation at the end. So this does not set the tone for Thomas to call Yeshua God. The word worhip or worshipped are used in broad terms in the 4 books.

Strong's Greek Lexicon
4352. proskuneo pros-koo-neh'-o from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):--worship.

Almost like when one goes to a funeral ceremony to pay homage or their repects. Should we assume they are there to worship a dead body? This same word can be applied to catholics when they kneel before the Pope and kiss his ring. Are you suggesting they worship they Pope? When you ask catholics a question like that they will surely tell you it's a sign of respect.


The latin vulgate use the same word (adore). Other bibles are in accordance with Strong's lexicographical rendering of the word. "Maybe" in the greek language that is the only word that was available to be used but depending on the situation the word can be applied broadly.



But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. -Hebrews 1:8

And it's not mine anyway; it's what the Bible says:
Oh, gee; the Father addressed the Son as God.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. -I Timothy 3:16

Oh, gee: the Bible says Jesus was God was manifest in the flesh![/quote]

I was waiting for the "And Yeshua said" but I'm reminded that this is from the commentary of men who assumed him to be God.

Of course He was! He's the second person of the Trinity (do you believe in that?)! God manifest in the flesh!

You are assuming I'm a christian and I'm not. The trinity is a man made concept. Yeshua was God's word manifest (brought forth) in the flesh.

He was the Son of God, he carried God's Word in the flesh.

Carrying God's word doesn't automatically mean one has to be God. Was Moses God when he brought the word of God to his people, was Abraham God when he brought the word of God to the people, Were any of the sons of God (those classified as angels) God when they brought the word of God? No where does Yeshua say he is God or that he is God manifest in the flesh. He does reavel that he brings Gods' word..and this is what makes the word manifest in flesh and walk amongst the people.

"Only the Father knows the day and the hour..."

But he didn't nor did anyone else...

Nope. He's God: I'm one of His creation; how can I know everything about Him?

Exactly, so now you're starting to get it. So where do we find any statement from Yeshua saying he is all knowing...We don't. We don't find a verse that even comes close to that. So it is assumed that he is God even when he clearly expresses he isn't.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

So you reference Isaiah 55:8 and this in itself is talking about God and not Yeshua. There's a big difference. But in reality you read that statement and it could fit God, Yeshua and even the angels.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Part 2

Are you kidding?

You know very well who the Father is. At least who I mean.

From my understanding and the understanding Yeshua had the "Father" was God so he couldn't have been praying to himself.

Are you trying to apply human reasoning to God?

What other reasoning must I use? Have you been endowed with super human reasoning that we lack? I can reason that Yeshua is not God when he said "MY GOD and YOUR GOD......."MY GOD, MY GOD, Why have YOU left me"

So what is your reason he is.........

Are you a scientist or a Christian?

I'm neither of these things.

But the simple (and Boblical) answer is that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh (God as the spirit was still in heaven)

Are you sure about that?

Matthew 3:16,17
And Yeshua , when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
You might have to rethink that statement you made because the book you thump says otherwise. Just want to make another point here...If he was God then there would be no need for him to receive his own spirit. Here's the trippy part....Yeshua being God received the spirit of God then he talked to himself from heaven and said that he was pleased with himself......WOW...!!!!

Jesus was bound by physical laws because of the flesh. He said Himself that His power is of the Father. So, he Had to pray.

This is another christian myth. I have proof he was not bound by physical laws. Was he not able to calm the waters and the storm, was he not able to walk on water, was he not able to change mere H20 in to wine or feed the multitude with little bit of bread and fish, was he not able to heel the blind or cause the lame to walk....and was he not able to raise the dead???????????

No person on this earth bound by physical laws can do these things. If so then Yeshua wasn't that special. But you said it for me...The power he had came from God. All that he had was given.

 

[Luke_17:2]

I'm not arguing with a non-Christian. It's unprofitable. I assumed you were a Christian because this is a doctrinal matter between Christians. Now I get why you're not understanding it.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. -I Corinthians 2:14

 

[Popeyesays]

Luke,

This is an area for anyone to post on equal footing. It is NOT an area for Christians only.

I am not a Christian either, aftewr all, I am a Baha`i. I accept Jesus as He presents Himself, as a Manifestation of God, but not as God incarnate.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Luke_17:2]

I know it's not Christians only -which is why I left, and did not ask him to leave.

Boy, do I know this isn't Christians only.

One of the most hostile enviorments I've ever experienced. Brings back memories of the jungle...

EDIT: I owe him a response, as he wrote a two-post reply. But it will be my last to him on the subject because of the verse I quoted.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I'm not arguing with a non-Christian. It's unprofitable. I assumed you were a Christian because this is a doctrinal matter between Christians.

I respect your position but as you can tell this "debate" has been going on for a while here. In all honesty this debate has been going on for hundreds of years. This forum is for all faiths and ideas. We come here the sahe our perspective. Not only will you find religious commentary here you will also find people here who at some point found themselves in religious debates coming together to discuss games, music and a whole host of other topics. This, by far, is one of the best boards I have been a member of.

Your christian bretheren who initiated this dialogue has asserted Yeshua to be God. There are some holes in that theory, yes I said theory, because none of what Yeshua said, did or even the words and actions of his followers suggest he is God. I believe that we must examine the scripture in context. To pull out an "I am" statement made by Yeshua in no way is the be all to end all if you understand the whole conversation he had. "Before Abraham was I am"........Means I existed before Abraham. The jews of that day had a lot of respect for Abraham. He was a (father) figure to them and that is evident in the speech they had with Yeshua but Yeshua says "WE" have one father which is God. These statements set the people off and they could think of nothing else but to kill Yeshua.

Now I get why you're not understanding it.

Did you mean to say you get why I don't agree with you?

I understand quite well. As I've said before, Just because I don't agree does not mean I don't understand.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. -I Corinthians 2:14

I see, more commentary from men. Please look throughout the scripture and you will see that natural man does in fact receive "things" from God....whether it is spiritual or material. The scriptures show that God chooses to bestow whatever he (wants) (for lack of a better word) on whom ever he wants.....whether it is blessings, glory, life.....etc.....