Do animals have free will?

[kadzbiz]

What about instinctual pack nature? Does the instinct to do whatever the pack leader says counter the notion of free will in animals?

If one does something from instinct, does one have to be told what to do by a leader?

But then did Adam and Eve not have free will when they ate of the forbidden fruit? Why would God have let them choose if they didn't actually have the ability to choose? If they didn't have free will He may as well have cut to the chase and just spoon fed it to them.

I agree. That's why that whole scenario is a sting. Check out this thread. (I just checked and couldn't believe you hadn't posted in it Aqualung)

 

[Aqualung]

If one does something from instinct, does one have to be told what to do by a leader?

You do if the instinct IS doing what a leader tells.

I agree. That's why that whole scenario is a sting. Check out this thread
(I just checked and couldn't believe you hadn't posted in it Aqualung)

You created it at a time when I wasn't able to come on often enough to enter a big debate like that.

 

[kadzbiz]

You do if the instinct IS doing what a leader tells.

How do you mean? If you're following someone's lead, it's because there are possibly negative consequences if you don't, so you are making a choice to follow the leader or suffer those consequences.

 

[painted wolf]

What about instinctual pack nature? Does the instinct to do whatever the pack leader says counter the notion of free will in animals?

You havent seen enough pack behavior. Animals in the pack misbehave all the time.
It takes a strong leader to keep a pack together. Animals squabble over position, breeding rights and even chores.

If free will is the choise between good and bad, then pack animals have free will for sometimes one of them will deliberately choose to break the packs laws. Trying to steal food out of turn, breeding outside of ones position, killing the children of a rival in the pack or even taking them from the mother and making them thiers.... and so on.
Those that break the rules often are punnished for thier crimes.... law and order in the wild.

wa:do

 

[may]

[/color]

Of course they can't when they don't even have a consciousness of God

that is very true

 

[lilithu]

Of course they can't when they don't even have a consciousness of God.

How do you know they don't?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

You do if the instinct IS doing what a leader tells.

An animal learns to follow a pack leader the same way we do ... they are punished as cubs when they don't ... as adults they are punished and cast out.
This is not instinct it is learned response.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Free will means you can think and do what you like unchallenged, so in that case no-one or nothing has free will, we are all bound by law and mother nature... Otherwise we would go roung killing and looting and doing whatever...Unless your a nice guy that is...

 

[kmkemp]

Animals do not have free will. For those that think they do, do you believe that humans also have free will? What is the dividing line for free will? What evidence do you have?

Can we please stop saying that we would be walking around like zombies if we didn't have free will. That is absolutely ridiculous. Our lack of a will does not mean that we will behave in a certain way unless we know the way in which our controller wishes us to act. Clearly, we don't.

 

[Popeyesays]

An animal learns to follow a pack leader the same way we do ... they are punished as cubs when they don't ... as adults they are punished and cast out.
This is not instinct it is learned response.

Not all animals are pack animals or herd animals.

Grizzly bears are solitary, except for raising cubs.

Tigers are solitary.
Spiders are solitary.

Preying manitises are solitary.

Snakes are solitary, unless they are estivating.

Sharks, though found in numbers when feeding are solitary within those groups. They are attracted merely by the scent or action of prey.

Killer whales on the other hand, and dolphins and whales in general operate cooperatively, as do wolves, wildebeeste, matriarchal groups of elephants, troops of monkeys, etc., etc..

Regards,
Scott

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Not all animals are pack animals or herd animals.

Grizzly bears are solitary, except for raising cubs.

Tigers are solitary.
Spiders are solitary.

Preying manitises are solitary.

Snakes are solitary, unless they are estivating.

Sharks, though found in numbers when feeding are solitary within those groups. They are attracted merely by the scent or action of prey.

Killer whales on the other hand, and dolphins and whales in general operate cooperatively, as do wolves, wildebeeste, matriarchal groups of elephants, troops of monkeys, etc., etc..

Regards,
Scott

I am well aware of that...I was responding to a statement about pack animals.
How ever all creatures except perhaps the simplest make choices.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Free will means you can think and do what you like unchallenged, so in that case no-one or nothing has free will, we are all bound by law and mother nature... Otherwise we would go roung killing and looting and doing whatever...Unless your a nice guy that is...

We indeed have laws and moral constraints... but they do not override free will .
There would be no need for the police and punishment if they did.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Animals do not have free will. For those that think they do, do you believe that humans also have free will? What is the dividing line for free will? What evidence do you have?

Can we please stop saying that we would be walking around like zombies if we didn't have free will. That is absolutely ridiculous. Our lack of a will does not mean that we will behave in a certain way unless we know the way in which our controller wishes us to act. Clearly, we don't.

All life capable of exercising it, has free will. There is no imposed dividing line.
For those who don't or can't understand that, there is no evidence that can convince them.

 

[Popeyesays]

I am well aware of that...I was responding to a statement about pack animals.
How ever all creatures except perhaps the simplest make choices.

They make survival choices, and those choices are largely driven by instinct not reason.

Animals do not make moral judgments, it's not within their capacities,

Regards,
Scott

 

[kmkemp]

All life capable of exercising it, has free will. There is no imposed dividing line.
For those who don't or can't understand that, there is no evidence that can convince them.

You haven't really established anything with that statement. You just changed the question to where is the dividing line between those beings capable of exercising free will and those that are not capable.

 

[lilithu]

You haven't really established anything with that statement. You just changed the question to where is the dividing line between those beings capable of exercising free will and those that are not capable.

No, the original question was is there a dividing line between humans and other animals. Terry is saying that there is no dividing line. He didn't change the question to "where" is the line. There is no line.

 

[kadzbiz]

Originally Posted by kadzbiz
Of course they can't when they don't even have a consciousness of God.
How do you know they don't?

So how would they? There were people, remember history if you will, that had to get taught about the bible and God, so who has taught the animals about it? Next you'll be saying a rock or a plant has a consciousness of God too.

Animals do not have free will. For those that think they do, do you believe that humans also have free will? What is the dividing line for free will? What evidence do you have?....

Well what's your definition of free will? I believe that it is this one:
free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

So I think that people obviously and animals surely have free will. It comes down to cognative and physical ability I would say. Brainless creatures, or those in a state where the brain isn't functioning correctly would have a hard time thinking and thus making choices, exercising free will.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Until humans have a free will, animals wont.

 

[lilithu]

So how would they? There were people, remember history if you will, that had to get taught about the bible and God, so who has taught the animals about it?

Why do you think that free will is necessarily linked to knowledge of the bible?

Next you'll be saying a rock or a plant has a consciousness of God too.

I wouldn't say they don't.

 

[Im42nut2]

Other animals are not different than us. Their mental makeup only seems hindered due to the fact that their evolutionary path is millions/billions of years behind ours.