What "if" you are wrong

[InvestigateTruth]

To all that believe a god does exist and those that believe(or lack belief) a god does not exist.....
What if you are wrong? Will it matter?

It does not matter if one believes there is a god, or does not believe there is a god, regardless if a god exists or not.

But what matters alot, is what god one believes in. Again, regardless if a god exists or not, it makes a huge difference which god one believes in.
Consider, there are people who believe in a god, that literally and physically burn unbelievers in a Hell. What kind of people are these? These are cruel people themselves, because "god" is their ideal. So, if their god is so cruel and illogical that burns disbelievers in hell, these people are in fact like this god. It does not matter if this god exists or not.
Now, if a people believe in a god, who is kind, forgiving, wise and loving, this god is their ideal. They want to be like this god. So, whether or not this god exists or not, it strongly matters

 

[Valjean]

Trailblazer said:
How do you know that the truth doesn't come from religion?

I've never seen an evidenced or logically consistent case for religion being authoritative, or its claims logical or reliable. It doesn't have a real modality for investigation of truth.
Ergo: I'm skeptical.

I would be interested in any examples or modalities anyone could point me to, though.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm extremely good with my choices. I found peace when I let go of "organized" religion. No more fear of judgement by man or God. My God knows my heart at all times and guides me through my worldly travails.

I have chosen to be a member of an "organized" religion, the Baha'i Faith, because I believe in Baha'u'llah, but I don't like organized religion and I don't participate in it. Except to attend Feast every 19 days, I am completely out of touch with the Baha'i community. I have always done my own thing, and organized groups are not my thing.

I don't consider myself religious just because I belong to a religion, I consider myself spiritual.

I do not fear of judgement by man or God. God knows my heart at all times and guides me through my worldly travails. Without such guidance I'd be lost.

 

[Link]

It does not matter if one believes there is a god, or does not believe there is a god, regardless if a god exists or not.

But what matters alot, is what god one believes in. Again, regardless if a god exists or not, it makes a huge difference which god one believes in.
Consider, there are people who believe in a god, that literally and physically burn unbelievers in a Hell. What kind of people are these? These are cruel people themselves, because "god" is their ideal. So, if their god is so cruel and illogical that burns disbelievers in hell, these people are in fact like this god. It does not matter if this god exists or not.
Now, if a people believe in a god, who is kind, forgiving, wise and loving, this god is their ideal. They want to be like this god. So, whether or not this god exists or not, it strongly matters

Most Muslims and Christians are not cruel. You got to get out more.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've never seen an evidenced or logically consistent case for religion being authoritative, or its claims logical or reliable. It doesn't have a real modality for investigation of truth.
Ergo: I'm skeptical.

I would be interested in any examples or modalities anyone could point me to, though.

Sorry, I don't know any way to know anything about God except from what the Messengers of God reveal.
However, that doesn't mean all the claims of religion are logical or reliable or that all religions are authoritative.

 

[Valjean]

This is where I realize Pascal's Wager almost fails. If there is no god, the bet is not an insignificant loss. Well, at least, to some, they might have to give up a lot. I'm giving up the person I love the most out everyone I fell in love with. Its not easy. I know I would be happy with her, but I am letting her go because my religion forbids us being together.

Also, believing others are going to go to hell, it's not easy. It makes life almost unbearably painful if you have empathy.

Sorrow is the path of knowledge given the circumstances the world is in. People who reflect and then become sad in that moment do so because they reflected properly. However, a person of sorrow constantly sees and is a constant state of reflection.

However, if no hell, and I was wrong, all that sadness on top of sadness, and suffering for the thought of others going to hell, was avoided and I just lived life to the fullest and say no God, and this our only life.... then I gave up the only life I had, gave up living with the woman I love, for the next world and for pleasing God.

If one bets on the Christian God, and Islam turns out to be the one true religion, you go to hell for your disbelief and heresy. If the converse turns out to be true, you go to Hell for the heresy of your belief that God had a son.
If God turns out to be Huitzilopochtli, well, you're S.O.L. either way.

 

[Link]

If one bets on the Christian God, and Islam turns out to be the one true religion, you go to hell for your disbelief and heresy. If the converse turns out to be true, you go to Hell for the heresy of your belief that God had a son.
If God turns out to be Huitzilopochtli, well, you're S.O.L. either way.

You are right. But the beauty of pascal wager, says, you ought to search for truth and not bet. The bet is more like, the time and pain you put into searching truth is worth it if you discover the true God and insignificant time and pain lost if you did not.

I'm saying it's not insignificant loss, it's the only life we had if there is no God.

I'm saying, searching for truth worried you and others will go to hell, is painful. A life not worrying about that, is a lot easier and more enjoyable.

It's just that math wise, Pascal is right. Infinite pain is a lot worse and given infinite time, we shouldn't take our chances. We should bet on it existing and only forgo the search for truth from consequences point of view, if we are sure there is no infinite consequence nor infinite reward to be lost.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is where I realize Pascal's Wager almost fails. If there is no god, the bet is not an insignificant loss. Well, at least, to some, they might have to give up a lot. I'm giving up the person I love the most out everyone I fell in love with. Its not easy. I know I would be happy with her, but I am letting her go because my religion forbids us being together.

I am sorry to hear that. I know what it feels like to lose the only one you love, since I was married for 37 years and widowed two years ago.
May I ask why your religion forbids that? That sounds rather harsh.

Also, believing others are going to go to hell, it's not easy. It makes life almost unbearably painful if you have empathy.

I don't think my beliefs about hell are the same as yours. I don't feel sorry for those who will be there, since I believe that they will be there by their own choice, and that is where some people want to be. However, I believe that God is All-Merciful, so they won't have to remain in hell forever if they don't want to.

Sorrow is the path of knowledge given the circumstances the world is in. People who reflect and then become sad in that moment do so because they reflected properly. However, a person of sorrow constantly sees and is a constant state of reflection.

I agree, as I am a person of sorrow. The circumstances in this world are nothing to be happy about.

However, if no hell, and I was wrong, all that sadness on top of sadness, and suffering for the thought of others going to hell, was avoided and I just lived life to the fullest and say no God, and this our only life.... then I gave up the only life I had, gave up living with the woman I love, for the next world and for pleasing God.

Even if no hell exists, if there is another life after this one what you gave up for pleasing God would be worth it.

 

[MikeF]

So what? Do you think that God wants you to base YOUR beliefs upon what OTHER people believe?

Presumably the entity wants *everyone* to base their beliefs on what the *entity* wants everyone to believe. The fact that there are so many competing and conflicting versions is a strong indicator that there is no *correct* entity involved in this process, and really, no entity at all.

Who said anything about DIRE consequences?

Umm, all those who speak of hell, purgatory, etc.

Why should God end this speculation? God gave everyone a brain and a will to end it for themselves.

What kind of reasoning is that, pray tell. If the entity is that disinterested in folks getting it right, kind of speaks volumes, doesn't it?

Speaking of brains, though, not everyone's works the exactly the same. Some folks have certain aptitude in some areas, others in other areas. Some folks, unfortunately, are born with all manner of deficits. Doesn't seem fair, eh?

The Messengers of God have made themselves known, plainly.

Indeed. As I have said, all these entities are man-made creations.

 

[Valjean]

Sorry, I don't know any way to know anything about God except from what the Messengers of God reveal.
However, that doesn't mean all the claims of religion are logical or reliable or that all religions are authoritative.

OK, so how's one to judge the truthfulness or authority of the messengers?
There are so many of them, making so many different claims.

You are right. But the beauty of pascal wager, says, you ought to search for truth and not bet. The bet is more like, the time and pain you put into searching truth is worth it if you discover the true God and insignificant time and pain lost if you did not.

I'm saying it's not insignificant loss, it's the only life we had if there is no God.

I'm saying, searching for truth worried you and others will go to hell, is painful. A life not worrying about that, is a lot easier and more enjoyable.

It's just that math wise, Pascal is right. Infinite pain is a lot worse and given infinite time, we shouldn't take our chances. We should bet on it existing and only forgo the search for truth from consequences point of view, if we are sure there is no infinite consequence nor infinite reward to be lost.

If you made a faith choice based on the best bet for personal benefit, wouldn't God know your heart, no matter what you professed with your mouth.? Wouldn't He disapprove of your self serving gambling?

 

[Nakosis]

Then why not look for the information?

Who says I haven't. The people who stop are those who believe the words of someone else. They believe what they've been told so there is no reason to look any further. If it is information you are looking for there is plenty about. You could spend your entire life and not get through it all.

Are you still looking? Or are you the one that is no longer looking?

Plenty of prophets about. Looking for someone to give their information to.

 

[Link]

If you made a faith choice based on the best bet for personal benefit, wouldn't God know your heart, no matter what you professed with your mouth.? Wouldn't He disapprove of your self serving gambling?

In this scenario, we don't know God. We are choosing whether to search for the truth or just forgo it. If we are not certain God won't punish us nor lose infinite reward if we don't search, Pascal argues, we should bet on the consequences and reward and search till we know for certain.

For all we know point of view, not seeking God may have forever consequences or makes us lose infinite reward. So we search till we become certain.

If you are 100% certain he won't punish you, then you can forgo it.

A weakness of Pascal's wager, it maybe that searching deeply for an answer will create a bias, that we want to become certain if we give a lot of time searching. So it might always lead to an illusion of certainty.

Pascal recognizes that and says, we ought to make sure we aren't tricking ourselves and self-honesty and making sure you have toolset for truth are both important.

 

[Trailblazer]

Who says I haven't. The people who stop are those who believe the words of someone else. They believe what they've been told so there is no reason to look any further. If it is information you are looking for there is plenty about. You could spend your entire life and not get through it all.

According to Baha'i beliefs, we should not believe the words of someone else. We are told to conduct our own independent investigation.

Are you still looking? Or are you the one that is no longer looking?

I am not still looking for a religion but I am always searching for truth since there is always more truth to discover.

Plenty of prophets about. Looking for someone to give their information to.

I know, but I don't believe any of them are Prophets sent by God.

 

[Link]

I am sorry to hear that. I know what it feels like to lose the only one you love, since I was married for 37 years and widowed two years ago.
May I ask why your religion forbids that? That sounds rather harsh.

There are clear verses forbidding it in Quran. I'd rather not quote them since I do love her. I'm not saying this poetically, if God accepts a person carries another person's burden, I would ask to do so for her and if she was going to hell and I can take her place and she goes to heaven instead of me, that's what I would choose.

I feel like deceiving myself sometimes, and go with the more benevolent no punishment type God some people here believe in, but I can't. I know the Quran is the truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK, so how's one to judge the truthfulness or authority of the messengers?
There are so many of them, making so many different claims.

You can only judge for yourself by looking at what that Messenger offered as evidence to back His claim.
Of course you cannot look at all the self-proclaimed Messengers, so you would have to have some set of criteria for ones you would investigate.

If you made a faith choice based on the best bet for personal benefit, wouldn't God know your heart, no matter what you professed with your mouth.? Wouldn't He disapprove of your self serving gambling?

I think God would know and He wouldn't approve, since that is selfish and God doesn't approve of selfish.

 

[Trailblazer]

I feel like deceiving myself sometimes, and go with the more benevolent no punishment type God some people here believe in, but I can't. I know the Quran is the truth.

I feel like deceiving myself and I try to cut people slack, but what Baha'u'llah revealed about hell is not exactly benevolent.

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.

They that have disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty are the helpless victims of their corrupt inclinations and desires. These shall return to their abode in the fire of hell: wretched is the abode of the deniers!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp, 284-285

 

[Spice]

I have chosen to be a member of an "organized" religion, the Baha'i Faith, because I believe in Baha'u'llah,........I have always done my own thing, and organized groups are not my thing.

I don't consider myself religious just because I belong to a religion, I consider myself spiritual.

I do not fear of judgement by man or God. God knows my heart at all times and guides me through my worldly travails. Without such guidance I'd be lost.

I have general understanding of the Baha'i Faith from another international religious forum I participated in for quite some time years ago. And I've read little of Bahá’u’lláh through my friendships established there. Unfortunately that forum shut down and the supporting website stream-lined, so I eventually found this site and signed on here. I actually think I've recognized one or two of those members here.

As you know I've been inactive for very long time, but my interests and studies have continued and this weekend I got a hankering for some more good ole idea/belief exchange and discussion. For me, this is church fellowship! I love sharing God. However another perceives Him doesn't matter to me, because I don't question how God guides His children. And I do my best not to converse with strong word. That's difficult for me in some cases. I do like to plant seeds that spark wonder into those who never, ever dared to question their chosen doctrine. I know what such seeds grew in me and I'm blessed by it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Presumably the entity wants *everyone* to base their beliefs on what the *entity* wants everyone to believe. The fact that there are so many competing and conflicting versions is a strong indicator that there is no *correct* entity involved in this process, and really, no entity at all.

No, not really. The fact that there are so many competing and conflicting versions is a strong indicator that most people have not found the right version.

What kind of reasoning is that, pray tell. If the entity is that disinterested in folks getting it right, kind of speaks volumes, doesn't it?

The entity is interested in folks getting it right and it has done everything it can do towards that end.

Speaking of brains, though, not everyone's works the exactly the same. Some folks have certain aptitude in some areas, others in other areas. Some folks, unfortunately, are born with all manner of deficits. Doesn't seem fair, eh?

To those whom much has been given, much is expected. God does not expect people to do more than they are capable of as that would be unjust.

Indeed. As I have said, all these entities are man-made creations.

or so you believe. That's your choice. You cannot blame the entity for your choices.

 

[LuisDantas]

To all that believe a god does exist and those that believe(or lack belief) a god does not exist.....
What if you are wrong? Will it matter?

No. It does not matter at all.

It is difficult to think of any reason why it would.

 

[siti]

According to Baha'i beliefs, we should not believe the words of someone else. We are told to conduct our own independent investigation.

If you are "told" to conduct your own investigation, how do you know that is really what you are supposed to do without believing the words of the person that told you?

what Baha'u'llah revealed about hell is not exactly benevolent.

But you'll only ever know by trying it for yourself...if Bar Howler is right, presumably I'll be in line for especial blessings on account of my lack of faith ensuring that I independently test what he revealed about hell! What a turn up that would be!