What "if" you are wrong

[ppp]

You quoted my post out of context. You left off "assuming".

Key word there.

Let me help you with the post...
"(assuming "if" a god does exist, so does a soul)

Nope. Not a key word at all. But just to make you happy.
Assuming a soul does not imply a god. Assuming a god does not imply a soul.

 

[We Never Know]

Nope. Not a key word at all. But just to make you happy.
Assuming a soul does not imply a god. Assuming a god does not imply a soul.

There ya go! Good job!
Now you are assuming instead of claiming.
Get a cookie out of the break room cookie jar.

 

[ppp]

There ya go! Good job!
Now you are assuming instead of claiming.
Get a cookie out of the break room cookie jar.

Squirrel. I expect no more.

 

[ppp]

This is why many Muslims are not cruel. Because they do not believe deeply in Hell or things like that.

There are many Muslims who believe in hell who are not cruel.

 

[We Never Know]

There are many Muslims who believe in hell who are not cruel.

Define cruel.

There are many people who are cruel regardless of having beliefs or not

Simple every day examples....

A kid tortures a cat or dog(an animal)
People making fun of people
Calling people names...fat, stupid, etc
Etc. Etc.

If you look around you more than likely will see someone being cruel everyday.

 

[ppp]

Define cruel.

There are many people who are cruel regardless of having beliefs or not

Simple every day examples....

A kid tortures a cat or dog(an animal)
People making fun of people
Calling people names...fat, stupid, etc
Etc. Etc.

If you look around you more than likely will see someone being cruel everyday.

Perhaps someone more intelligent than I could pull a coherent through line out of that. It is certainly beyond my meager resources.

 

[We Never Know]

Perhaps someone more intelligent than I could pull a coherent through line out of that. It is certainly beyond my meager resources.

Well that's speaks volumes. I do believe my 10 year old grandson could understand it. lol

Btw... What is a coherent through line?

 

[ppp]

Well that's speaks volumes. I do believe my 10 year old grandson could understand it. lol

Btw... What is a coherent through line?

Ask your ten year old grandson.

 

[We Never Know]

Ask your ten year old grandson.

He wouldn't say such nonsense. You did.
So explain..
Unless you don't even understand what you say... Then I reckon you get a pass.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There are many Muslims who believe in hell who are not cruel.

The cruilty appears in many ways. You dont have to go and kill people or torture animals to be cruel.
It is in their hearth, that, since this person does not believe in my religion, they deserve to go to hell, and since they believe they deserve to go to hell, why would they really care about them in their heart? Why should they love them? You know what I mean? If their God will punish those disbelievers, therefore they deserve punishment, so, now even if they punish them, it is ok, since this is what their God will do later. I mean, if their God will torture the disbelievers later in hell, it is not wrong, for them to do the same now. You know what I mean?

 

[ppp]

The cruilty appears in many ways. You dont have to go and kill people or torture animals to be cruel.
It is in their hearth, that, since this person does not believe in my religion, they deserve to go to hell, and since they believe they deserve to go to hell, why would they really care about them in their heart? Why should they love them? You know what I mean? If their God will punish those disbelievers, therefore they deserve punishment, so, now even if they punish them, it is ok, since this is what their God will do later. I mean, if their God will torture the disbelievers later in hell, it is not wrong, for them to do the same now. You know what I mean?

Belief is not cruelty. Actions are. It is not cruel for someone to believe I will go to hell, yet keep their mouth shut. I am not even convinced that they are always being cruel when they say something. Some Muslims and Christians have simply been terrorized by their respective religions.

 

[Trailblazer]

Have you received anything directly from god(a god)?

A simple yes or no will be fine. No details needed.

How would anyone know that they received anything from God?
Think about it.

 

[The Hammer]

Have you received anything directly from god(a god)?

A simple yes or no will be fine. No details needed.

Yup

 

[Link]

What about behavior of ISIS? Or the Talibaan toward their own people?
Or the cruelty of Iraqis when they were in war with Iran? Or the terrorists groups such as AL-Qaida? Or the cruelty of Hamas, when they killed people in Israel?

Similar things happened before by Pops in older ages.
Nowadays, many Muslims or Christians do not really believe in Hell though. Many of them are not religious, and many of those who are somewhat religious, do not really believe in a literal resurrection or hell. Even Saudi Arabia, is not enforcing many of the Sharia Laws anymore. This is why many Muslims are not cruel. Because they do not believe deeply in Hell or things like that.

None of those has to do with cruelty. It has to do with misguidance.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

To all that believe a god does exist and those that believe(or lack belief) a god does not exist.....
What if you are wrong? Will it matter?

It could matter. Depends on the specific nature of the god or gods.
I find it unlikely that it would matter though.

 

[ChristineM]

Nope...as an example of an allegory made to draw and hold attention.

An example for comparison, otherwise why even bring ted riding hood into it.

That's the message of a frightening allegory made to draw and hold attention in the OT. It's not history, it's not literal, it's "stories" sometimes correlating to true events, but more like FOX News would report

Well yes, it's stories to keep the masses under control, but no threat to people who think it's total nonsense

 

[1213]

How should an observant Christian feel if he found out for a fact today that the religion was false. Suppose you were in a car accident and awakened no longer believing in that god. Do you think that you would still be glad of having spent years reading scripture, going to church, praying, tithing, denying yourself experiences such as extramarital sex or getting an abortion for an unwanted pregnancy or self-loathing because of your urges, and all the rest that goes with that life?

I think the scriptures are good. I don't see why would I regret reading it. I don't think people must go to church, tithe or even pray. I think they are voluntary things for those who want to do so. If I do them, it is not because I have to, but because I want to. And if I want to do so, I do it because I think it is good and beneficial.

I don't think extramarital sex is good. And I have no desire to kill little babies. If I would loath some urge, I think there would be a good reason for that, which is why I don't see it as bad thing.

I can answer for myself, a former zealous Christian who left the religion four decades ago. The change was for the better. One could only call it a mistake of the god of Abraham exists as described. If not, it would have been a mistake to not get out. I married a woman that wouldn't have had me if I were still religious. We chose to not have children, which would have been much less likely had we both been Christians. Goodbye to all of the Grateful Dead weekends, where we would fly to some Western venue (San Francisco, Oakland, San Diego, LA, Las Vegas, Phoenix) for a three-show weekend. Gone would be all of the world travel and the restaurants several times a week. Gone would be band practice three times a week with my wife and a second guitarist, and all of the live performances about twenty times a year. That's a huge price to pay.

How about you? Are you good with your choice even if the religion it false and its god nonexistent?

I think it depends on, what is false. I don't know what could for example convince me that it is ok to murder little children.

But, in any case, I think I have good reasons to remain in what Jesus said, therefore I have no problem, even if it would turn out that God is not real.

It is interesting, if you think that as a Christian you would have to have kids. And it is interesting also that you think you could have. Not everyone gets them, even if they want. Also, I think Children are one of the greatest gifts people can get. So, it is interesting how one can be against them.

By what I see, there is not much things that are not allowed and the main thing is that people should love each other. That is why it is surprising, if you think Christianity would prevent you from traveling or going to restaurants. But, in some cases it may be that greater good prevents one to do some things, even though the things are not necessary bad. And I can understand if it is difficult. In my experience I have had not to reject anything good and I think I have gotten lots of all kind of good, and would probably have had even more, if I would have wanted it.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Most people who are cruel, do not act with cruelty in an obvious way, because the Law does not allow them, and they know they will get in trouble if they show cruelty.

Agreed. You're talking about malicious people, most of whom keep that relatively well concealed from most other people. It can difficult to discern when somebody is empathetic or only feigning empathy.

But there is a different kind of cruelty that isn't malicious. It's done with good intent, but is cruel nevertheless. Mother Teresa said that suffering was the kiss of Christ, and allowed her hospice patients to suffer gratuitous pain while sending the contributions given to underwrite hospice care to the Vatican instead. One could call that sadism and fraud, but I don't think she felt any malice or thought that what she did was stealing.

And when a mother tells her child about hell, she probably thinks that she is helping him avoid perdition someday, yet assuming that she is wrong about hell, she's inflicting a kind of psychological cruelty on him. Later, when the child begins to feel same-sex attractions, for example, other things she and his pastor taught him will increase his suffering. It's a cruel ideology passing as a religion of love delivered mostly by people who we would not call cruel and who feel no malice.

I'm extremely good with my choices. I found peace when I let go of "organized" religion. No more fear of judgement by man or God. My God knows my heart at all times and guides me through my worldly travails.

I'm glad for you, but that doesn't answer the question asked, which was, if you learned that the god you worship doesn't exist, would you consider the path that belief took you a good one anyway.

I think the scriptures are good. I don't see why would I regret reading it. I don't think people must go to church, tithe or even pray. I think they are voluntary things for those who want to do so. If I do them, it is not because I have to, but because I want to. And if I want to do so, I do it because I think it is good and beneficial. I don't think extramarital sex is good. And I have no desire to kill little babies. If I would loath some urge, I think there would be a good reason for that, which is why I don't see it as bad thing.

You also didn't answer the question asked. I know that you think the scriptures are good. You believe they are of divine provenance. And you weren't asked if going to church, tithing or praying were obligatory. Of course you think it's good and beneficial, because you believe these instructions come from a good god.

My point is that for me, if the Christian god doesn't exist, I have no reason to impose the values or obey the commands attributed to it, which come at a great price. You may be happy to be devoting resources to your faith and church under the belief that this god exists, but would that change if you knew otherwise?

It is interesting, if you think that as a Christian you would have to have kids

I didn't say that Christians have to have children, but there is pressure for all fertile couples to reproduce, which I would say that most accede to without objection or a lot of thought. It's simply the thing one is supposed to do.

Also, I think Children are one of the greatest gifts people can get. So, it is interesting how one can be against them.

I'm not against kids. I'm all for them having safe homes, loving parents, getting a good education, acquiring healthy values, etc.. I just didn't want to raise them. Let those who enjoy that do it. There is no good reason why a person not driven to have and raise children should have or raise children. Couples that choose not to increase the population of the world are doing us all a favor just as those that got vaccines, those that put up solar panels on their roofs, and those that don't eat meat are all making a contribution to the wellbeing of humanity.

Incidentally, I haven't done all of those. I still eat meat, but mostly as a condiment. I have some Yemeni lentils with lamb in the refrigerator now, and some red pipian with garbanzos and pork there, too. But steaks, pork chops, burgers, rotisserie chickens and the like are uncommon for us, although tonight, we will be having Peking duck at our local Chinese restaurant, but only because we are thanking neighbors for a kindness they did us, and they like duck.

This is where I realize Pascal's Wager almost fails. If there is no god, the bet is not an insignificant loss.

I'm very pleased to see a believer acknowledge that. This is the closest to an answer my question has received. You seem to be saying that the life you have chosen to lead only makes sense if the god you believe in exists since the price for living it is high.

I'm giving up the person I love the most out everyone I fell in love with.

Sorry to hear that. I presume you mean because of religious incompatibility, or why would you bring it up in this context?

Also, believing others are going to go to hell, it's not easy. It makes life almost unbearably painful if you have empathy.

Good for you again. Here's a related quote I like:

"To the philosophy of atheism belongs the credit of robbing death of its horror and its terror. It brought about the abolition of Hell." - Joseph Lewis

Most Muslims and Christians are not cruel.

I know what you are saying, which I addressed at the top of this post. Most are not malicious or antisocial. Yet what has been done to you feels cruel to me. You described how those beliefs have led to loss and suffering. This speaks directly to the OP's question, what if you are wrong.

As I recall, you posted that you left Islam for a while because you couldn't bear the thought of people you loved going to hell, but came back to it for that very promise of hell because of anger issues following the torture of your parents and uncle (who died) by a government. I understand and don't judge or condemn you for your rage or for finding solace in religion, but if that's correct, aren't you back in the fold for the cruelty?

 

[Link]

As I recall, you posted that you left Islam for a while because you couldn't bear the thought of people you loved going to hell, but came back to it for that very promise of hell because of anger issues following the torture of your parents and uncle (who died) by a government. I understand and don't judge or condemn you for your rage or for finding solace in religion, but if that's correct, aren't you back in the fold for the cruelty?

It motivated me to reconsider the religion. You are right, in a sense, I had a want of oppressors being punished. Yet, in a conflicting way, I have a want for people I know not to be punished.

At this point, I'd rather people not be punished. Even if makes certain people get away with their crimes. But I'm so far deep in seeking evidence of Quran and Ahlulbayt (a), it's not really possible to be turn back at this point.

 

[Link]

I'm very pleased to see a believer acknowledge that. This is the closest to an answer my question has received. You seem to be saying that the life you have chosen to lead only makes sense if the god you believe in exists since the price for living it is high.

We ask God in many prayers to take away love of the life of this world. Ascension and experience of God's light is supposed to replace that pleasure of life. If all that doesn't exist, it's a lot of expecting, and suffering for it. If God doesn't exist, there will be no ascension, no matter how much we pray for it. I can go on and on, how much, significant it is the bet we take.

Sorry to hear that. I presume you mean because of religious incompatibility, or why would you bring it up in this context?

Yes, that's what I mean. Thanks for sympathy.