Demons, is there any evidence they even exist?

[Trailblazer]

Then he doesn't want the best for everyone. Then at best he just wishes the best for everyone. Just like I can wish the best for X while X is diagnosed with cancer the next day.

What you have is a personal opinion, that if God was loving and wanted the best for everyone, God would provide input on an individual basis to garner belief in Him, but you do not know that, you only believe it.

Firstly, you cannot know what God wants, and neither can I. We can only know what God does and doesn't do, if God exists. We know that if God exists God does not provide input on an individual basis to garner belief in Him. That means that if God existed God would not provide input on an individual basis to garner belief in Him.

You believe a loving God would do that if He existed and wanted the best for everyone, but I do not believe that is what a loving God would do. I believe a loving God would allow everyone to discover God for themselves. It is a level playing field so everyone has the same opportunity to do so, and that is fair and just.

If the myths are true, then that is clearly not true as other people got the privilege of witnessing miracles and revelations and what-not first hand.
So clearly it is not that he can't or won't reach out. It's that she's choosing not to (if she exists).

Only a numbered few people witnessed miracles first-hand and only Messengers of God receive revelations from God.
It is not possible or necessary for everyone to have those experiences. Miracles are not the evidence for God that we are supposed to look at. If they were, God would have made miracles available to everyone.

All we have are claims.

No, we have claims and we have evidence that supports those claims.

Praying has the same statistical signals as sheer randomness.
In fact, in some cases it even performs worse then that due to the false hope it provides.

That might be true if you are praying for something in particular, but that isn't the same as praying for assistance in general. Nobody can measure the effects of that since there is nothing to measure. Unless it is a life and death matter, I never pray for anything in particular, I just pray for assistance with my difficulties. Even if it is a life and death matter, I realize that whatever the outcome is, God knows more than I do about what is best for everyone concerned.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

When one sees a tree move by no inherent capability of its own, we can make the induction that wind exists, despite the fact that the eyes cannot testify to it.
When man acts in a manner that undermines his tangible and quantifiable, intellectual superiority over all other creatures, and especially when this behaviour can be construed as immoral, depraved and degenerate, we can induce the fact that there is a malevolent influence or source acting upon him.

A tree might move during an earthquake. It might move if there was collapse of the substrate like a sink hole. There are other reasons a tree may move. There is also other evidence of wind besides waving branches. You can feel the wind. You can see clouds move. Dust storms. Snow drifts. We can measure the wind, speed, force, direction, moisture content, etc. It is not a logical comparison between wind that has characteristics we can measure and demons that have no such characteristics that can be measured.

Wind and the evidence for wind are widely, well-recognized and well characterized. Demons are not. There is no evidence for demons and no logical reason to assume them without evidence.

Still no one can show me that they see them or their work definitively, unambiguously with objective evidence.

Basically you are saying that all bad behavior is the result of demons that you cannot demonstrate actually are doing anything.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

So you think dementia is caused by demons??

That must really stink to be a dementia demon. Forgetting what you are doing or who you were supposed to possess.

 

[YoursTrue]

@YoursTrue was just asking you a reasonable question. No diversion was intended!

Several months ago in another thread I asked you reasonable questions, and you proceeded to accuse me of ‘attacking’ you. The diversion was your tactic… as now.

It comes across as though you’re not sure what you believe, regarding spiritual matters.

So be it. I just wanted to point this out, but I won’t bother you anymore.

It seems when someone who claims to be religious, or having some form of religion claiming a belief in Jesus, when asked how they justify belief in Jesus, it is taken as an attack.

 

[DNB]

Why in the world are you bringing it up if it's not what you're talking about? Just say your actual point. Is dessert demonic or isn't it?

Decadence and debauchery is - desserts, as in unhealthy and unnecessary foods, which when indulging in them often lead to gluttony or obesity, etc
But, the point is man's bad judgement - we live in a n oversize me culture - no one asks for a double serving of carrot sticks or broccoli.
Cigarettes serve no purpose but decay, and yet, it's one of the most coveted commodities in the world, as is alcohol, etc...

Point is, McDonald's sells to billions each year, as do other foods that are no good for us (desserts) - despite man's prevalent health issues.

All this to say that man is fighting demons in his life continuously, and the demons are winning.

 

[YoursTrue]

A tree might move during an earthquake. It might move if there was collapse of the substrate like a sink hole. There are other reasons a tree may move. There is also other evidence of wind besides waving branches. You can feel the wind. You can see clouds move. Dust storms. Snow drifts. We can measure the wind, speed, force, direction, moisture content, etc. It is not a logical comparison between wind that has characteristics we can measure and demons that have no such characteristics that can be measured.

Wind and the evidence for wind are widely, well-recognized and well characterized. Demons are not. There is no evidence for demons and no logical reason to assume them without evidence.

Still no one can show me that they see them or their work definitively, unambiguously with objective evidence.

Basically you are saying that all bad behavior is the result of demons that you cannot demonstrate actually are doing anything.

Naturally we're not discussing evolution in this particular thread, but soil does move, doesn't it? In fact, now that you mention it, trees and soil can have different timelines.

 

[DNB]

Pride, hate, intolerance, hungry for power,...

There's more then enough "internal" forces in human psych to account for the atrocities of history, the present and unfortunately the future.

you're confusing the source of the influence, and its target.

 

[DNB]

Except that they don't appear to be tangible at all.

Take your blinders off, and open your ears.

 

[DNB]

That's not my experience. Why do you hang out with such terrible humans?

I'm on this forum, aren't I?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

That's not my experience. Why do you hang out with such terrible humans?

I'm on this forum, aren't I?

I've been a member for over a year, and to be honest, the only humans on this forum that I regard as unpleasant in nature are a few pompous Christians.

 

[Left Coast]

Decadence and debauchery is - desserts, as in unhealthy and unnecessary foods, which when indulging in them often lead to gluttony or obesity, etc
But, the point is man's bad judgement - we live in a n oversize me culture - no one asks for a double serving of carrot sticks or broccoli.
Cigarettes serve no purpose but decay, and yet, it's one of the most coveted commodities in the world, as is alcohol, etc...

Point is, McDonald's sells to billions each year, as do other foods that are no good for us (desserts) - despite man's prevalent health issues.

All this to say that man is fighting demons in his life continuously, and the demons are winning.

While it's certainly true that people can overindulge in our culture, and smoking is an awful habit, but none of that has anything to do with demons, so far as I can see. Humans need no demonic influences to make poor decisions.

But there is nothing wrong - certainly not demonic, for goodness' sake - with an occasional dessert.

 

[DNB]

That's not my experience. Why do you hang out with such terrible humans?

I'm on this forum, aren't I?

A tree might move during an earthquake. It might move if there was collapse of the substrate like a sink hole. There are other reasons a tree may move. There is also other evidence of wind besides waving branches. You can feel the wind. You can see clouds move. Dust storms. Snow drifts. We can measure the wind, speed, force, direction, moisture content, etc. It is not a logical comparison between wind that has characteristics we can measure and demons that have no such characteristics that can be measured.

Wind and the evidence for wind are widely, well-recognized and well characterized. Demons are not. There is no evidence for demons and no logical reason to assume them without evidence.

Still no one can show me that they see them or their work definitively, unambiguously with objective evidence.

Basically you are saying that all bad behavior is the result of demons that you cannot demonstrate actually are doing anything.

For crying out loud ST, a demon by definition is an incorporeal being - what are you trying to quantify or circumscribe?
The evidence that I offered is demonic in nature - man's malevolence.

 

[DNB]

I've been a member for over a year, and to be honest, the only humans on this forum that I regard as unpleasant in nature are a few pompous Christians.

...it gets exasperating quite often, attempting to explain things that are strictly spiritually discerned.

 

[DNB]

While it's certainly true that people can overindulge in our culture, and smoking is an awful habit, but none of that has anything to do with demons, so far as I can see. Humans need no demonic influences to make poor decisions.

But there is nothing wrong - certainly not demonic, for goodness' sake - with an occasional dessert.

I eat desserts also, that wasn't the point so much as much as recognizing its lack of efficacy in any realm whatsoever. It's a small microcosm of the bigger picture - man has the intelligence to recognize and define a diet that will optimize in performance and benefits, many aspects of his life, and suffer very little consequence by adhering to it. Is that the state of affairs that we're in : man as a responsible, pragmatic, diligent and harmonious being - even the animal kingdom behaves more logical and beneficial.
Man's defiance of his own intellect, implies that there is a force that can cause him to supersede his own rationale for that of hypocrisy and self-destructiveness.

Someone else mentioned desserts, and I just attempted to salvage the useless comment by applying it to the more profound point that I was making. ...you should've known that I wasn't talking about the iniquity of dessert?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

...it gets exasperating quite often, attempting to explain things that are strictly spiritually discerned.

Uh huh.

 

[Left Coast]

I eat desserts also, that wasn't the point so much as much as recognizing its lack of efficacy in any realm whatsoever. It's a small microcosm of the bigger picture - man has the intelligence to recognize and define a diet that will optimize in performance and benefits, many aspects of his life, and suffer very little consequence by adhering to it. Is that the state of affairs that we're in : man as a responsible, pragmatic, diligent and harmonious being - even the animal kingdom behaves more logical and beneficial.
Man's defiance of his own intellect, implies that there is a force that can cause him to supersede his own rationale for that of hypocrisy and self-destructiveness.

I don't think that necessarily follows, no. It could simply be that humans have competing motives within them compelling them to do contradictory things: some that are selfish, some that are altruistic, some that are helpful, some that are harmful.

There is a classic Native story about two wolves within each of us that fight each other: one for good and one for evil. And the one that wins is the one we feed.

Someone else mentioned desserts, and I just attempted to salvage the useless comment by applying it to the more profound point that I was making. ...you should've known that I wasn't talking about the iniquity of dessert?

I try not to assume on this site. People say some very...wacky things. But I'm glad we agree there's nothing demonic about ice cream.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've been a member for over a year, and to be honest, the only humans on this forum that I regard as unpleasant in nature are a few pompous Christians.

I've been a member for over five years and the only people on this forum I have had any issues with are two pompous atheists.
One in particular is arrogant to no end. The other one just goes along with him. When someone is too arrogant to know just how arrogant they are then that person has a serious problem. Some people can never be wrong even when they are proved wrong. It is better to let them have the last word rather than giving them a platform. Then they think they won but who cares?

I like all the other atheists. I have only had run-ins with one Christian but we were able to work it out. I have no problems with any other Christians or anyone else, just those two atheists. Incidentally, I am not the only one who has problems with them so that's how I know it's not me who has the problem.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

you're confusing the source of the influence, and its target.

It seems to me that you're the one who's being confused concerning the source.

There is zero reason to add undemonstrable, unverifiable and / or unfalsifiable entities to explain human atrocities.
Just like there is no reason to add such to explain the opposite human behavior.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I'm on this forum, aren't I?

For crying out loud ST, a demon by definition is an incorporeal being

So by definition, an invented definition.
It must be, since the thing you are describing could never be observed and / or studied.
So how could you possibly know that it is real, first of all, and what its properties, attributes and behavior are like?

- what are you trying to quantify or circumscribe?

I don't know. That's just it with these unfalsifiable undetectable beings... there's no way to distinguish them from things that don't exist.
It's not our fault that you present unfalsifiable claims which can't have any evidence by definition.

All we can do is point it out and how such claims are potentially infinite in number. All you can do with an unfalsifiable claim is raise an eyebrow, shrug and walk away.

The evidence that I offered is demonic in nature - man's malevolence.

No. Those are the facts that you are trying to explain with "demonic" stuff.
They aren't evidence of demonic stuff any more then rainbows are evidence of leprechauns hiding pots of gold at their base.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I eat desserts also, that wasn't the point so much as much as recognizing its lack of efficacy in any realm whatsoever. It's a small microcosm of the bigger picture - man has the intelligence to recognize and define a diet that will optimize in performance and benefits, many aspects of his life, and suffer very little consequence by adhering to it. Is that the state of affairs that we're in : man as a responsible, pragmatic, diligent and harmonious being

That is the utopian picture. Real man is an evolved creature with emotions and at bottom has a tribalistic psych, which is beneficial for the group (s)he belongs to but will lead to conflict with other groups and / or act as a feeding ground for intolerance to certain other groups.

We rise above tribalism by continuously expanding the group we belong to ourselves, although there will always be sub-groups (social circles, family, ...) where the same primitive, almost instinctive, behavior will be triggered also at times.

- even the animal kingdom behaves more logical and beneficial.

That is really not the case.
In fact proportionally, in other social species, we see the exact same type of "social" stuff going on. Individuals trying to trick the group for their own benefit, the group punishing those individuals when caught, competition with other groups, protection of territory / hunting grounds (leading to conflict with other groups), hierarchy / mutiny / power struggles,...

Wolves, chimps, gorilla's,... all of them are faced with the same kind of social dilemma's as humans. "Me and / vs the group" as well as "the group and / vs other groups".

Man's defiance of his own intellect, implies that there is a force that can cause him to supersede his own rationale for that of hypocrisy and self-destructiveness.

I already told you.
Pride, passion, power hunger, intolerance, hate, greed,...

These are all things that underpin the atrocities of the past, the present and, unfortunately, the future.

Humans have the capacity of rational reasoning, yes.
And they are very good at using rational reasoning to find out how stuff works.
However, humans are NOT very good actually using it on a daily basis.
Most of the time, humans don't use it at all (or very limited or just wrong) and they act emotionally instead.

Proper rational reasoning is actually quite hard. You have to be able to keep your emotions and your a priori beliefs out of it.
Humans have tough time in doing that.

Then there's also narcissists, psychopaths and sociopaths who's brains are "miss-wired" and who literally aren't capable of empathic reasoning etc.

Again, there is no need to introduce any kind of undetectable, unfalsifiable, undemonstrable, unverifiable "force" here to explain immoral conduct.
No need at all. Humans are emotional social animals who, despite excellent capacity of rational reasoning, acts emotionally most of the time. Who is subject to evolutionary instinctive psychology like tribalism and the constant balance between what is good for you vs what is good for the group.

This is why I always add "and unfortunately the future".
Because considering the psychological profile of your average human, bad decisions are inevitable.