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Spiritual Evidence and Proofs of God’s Existence

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Evil in the eyes of the master..." is correct. Thank you. That was obtained from a digital, brainless, non-apologetic source. What does it mean to you "If evil in the eyes of the master"?
I can tell you what the English words mean in that phrase, but why would that matter? Who reads those words? Almost nobody in my world. They're reading the various English versions of Exodus 8:11. One version translates that as, "If she please not her master" and three others have "If she does not please the master" My point is that I'm not going to defer to any motivated-reasoning apologist's opinion. If he wants to tell me that means something other than what the words say to me, he'll need to make a compelling, evidenced argument.
Of course, you know how to remove that burnt food... like yesterday, and you certainly have the ability, but because you are wise, and know that scraping the food off will damage the pan, and make it useless, you choose to go about it, by using a process that is slower, and more delicate. Why?
You take into consideration the material you are dealing with.

Likewise, God is capable - has the ability. God knows how to do it, but wisdom, a quality that God possesses, allows him to use knowledge in the right way.
So, where you would soak the pan in some water, and a bit of VIM, or something similar, knowing that it will get the job done, and preserve your pan, God knows what to apply to preserve the delicate humans he has to deal with.
The process may seem slow, and appear to some as if God is incompetent, but he knows what he is doing.
And this applies to a tri-omni deity how? Just wish the pan clean, or blink a new one into existence, or just will your food cooked without pans. You talk about it as if it only has human capability.
No. Just knows how to go about doing things the right way... unlike us.
Not by the standards of many, including the poster you quoted: "sounds like your God is either weak or incompetent." But then you probably don't have any standards for your deity's behavior. Whatever it says and does is assumed to be good, right, true, and effective because it said or did them, so saying that it knows how to go about doing things the right way is assumed before examining the evidence by those who think that way, but rejected by those who evaluate the words and acts without prejudice apart from their innate sense of what is good, right, true, and effective.

Have you seen any of the discussions with the Baha'i and their messengers? The criticism was that a tri-omni deity with a message it wanted the world to know would not have sent a man carrying a mundane message written in mundane language to 19th century Persia, and the rebuttal was that since God chose that method, it must have been the most effective one possible.
I have evidence. Not proof.
Proof is what you are looking for. Not evidence.
No, empiricists are not looking for proof.

What he asked for was, "Specific evidence that Bible's stories about Adam and Eve and it's genealogy to Abraham etc are actual history and not myths." You say you have it, but where? Not in your reply.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
How does the owner of a slave betray a slave?

All it takes is the tiniest amount of critical thinking to undermine the claim that the daughter is sold into slavery.
I'm not sure where you're getting this "betray" stuff from. The passage - in the translation you said you like best - says "who did not designate her [for himself]."

IOW, once you buy a slave from her father, if she displeases her, you can sell her unless you decided to marry her (with the implication being that the marriage arrangement is permanent).

IOW, if she's your wife, you can continue to enslave her yourself, but you can't sell her to someone else even if she displeases you.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Can you prove that virtues are evolved traits? Where did they evolve from?
I say they are from God. "Hardwired" into "the nature of" man. Can you prove me wrong?
This illustrates the special pleading that goes on in religious thinking. This thread advocates for a type of evidence that is unreliable and questionable, and when explanations from science are provided as a rebuttal to bad religious conclusions only then do believers demand evidence. Of course this request is often honored with the science and evidence only to be rejected.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I can tell you what the English words mean in that phrase, but why would that matter? Who reads those words? Almost nobody in my world. They're reading the various English versions of Exodus 8:11. One version translates that as, "If she please not her master" and three others have "If she does not please the master" My point is that I'm not going to defer to any motivated-reasoning apologist's opinion. If he wants to tell me that means something other than what the words say to me, he'll need to make a compelling, evidenced argument.

Because, you said :handpointdown:

If the skeptic wants to know what any holy book says, he'll go to the source

Now you're saying that you aren't going to the source. Infact you are avoiding the source. A non-biased, non-human, perfectly neutral translation told you that the verse is telling you "If there is evil in the eyes of the master ..." And you are ignoring it. What is the motivated reasoning of google translate?

I'm not asking you to defer to my opinion. That's misrepresetning what I said. This is what said :handpointdown:

What's the literal translation of רָעָה בְּעֵינֵי? If you don't know, then you really aren't understanding the arrangement being discussed. Hopefully at least with regards to these verses, you will return to a position of skepticism?

With what information are you using to choose between the english translations and the literal translation? If it is just popularity, that seems to be a poor reason. It's conflating quantity of opinion with quality of opinion.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I'm not sure where you're getting this "betray" stuff from. The passage - in the translation you said you like best - says "who did not designate her [for himself]."

Betrayed is in the verses you quoted. See below:

Screenshot_20230322_100302.jpg


You asked me: "Where in the Bible passage does it mention anything about needing the daughter's consent?"

I answered: "At the end..."

Screenshot_20230322_100559.jpg

He betrays her is at the end of the passage you quoted.

IOW, once you buy a slave from her father, if she displeases her, you can sell her unless you decided to marry her (with the implication being that the marriage arrangement is permanent).

IOW, if she's your wife, you can continue to enslave her yourself, but you can't sell her to someone else even if she displeases you.

How can a slave owner betray a slave? We need to start there. If the question cannot be answered, then the status of the young girl is not a "slave".

I think it's clear that i was right at least about 1 thing. When it comes to the issue of Biblical slavery, critics DO have a knee-jerk reaction, and they DO skip over details. This is true in this case, because I have twice had to direct you back to what you yourself have quoted. As a result, it's important to take things one step at a time.

How can a slave owner betray a slave?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Because people do not understand that religion too is a science. The science of the love of God. We live in an age of extreme materialism where things spiritual are not yet connected to human happiness. But unless the spiritual and material are balanced, humanity will never know peace nor true happiness because happiness does not come from possessions but from within.
I find it ironic when theists harangue commercialism as if it is a vice when it is easy to categorize religious beliefs and dogmas as a commercial product as well. Religion is big business and the meaning associated with concepts is similar to the enjoyment consumers get from material products. Do we see believers any happier than non-believers? Not that is evident. Theists might appear happier and more confident but it’s arguable that its a performance built on religious assumptions that are known to lack real evidence.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Betrayed is in the verses you quoted. See below:

View attachment 73636

You asked me: "Where in the Bible passage does it mention anything about needing the daughter's consent?"

I answered: "At the end..."

View attachment 73637

He betrays her is at the end of the passage you quoted.



How can a slave owner betray a slave? We need to start there. If the question cannot be answered, then the status of the young girl is not a "slave".

I think it's clear that i was right at least about 1 thing. When it comes to the issue of Biblical slavery, critics DO have a knee-jerk reaction, and they DO skip over details. This is true in this case, because I have twice had to direct you back to what you yourself have quoted. As a result, it's important to take things one step at a time.

How can a slave owner betray a slave?
Huh? Anyone owned as property is a slave.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Except for the part where her father sold her off.

Good. The word "sold". Depending on the english translation, there's also the word "slave". That's 2 words. @blü 2 brought the RSV, I don't love it, but I agreed to use it.

I'll color code the words that indicate ownership in red, and the words which moderate that in blue.

7 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do.​
8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; he shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt faithlessly with her.​

So that's 2 to 5, owned as property compared to not owned as property. Not owned as property clearly wins. What's happening is a transfer of custody where betrothal is required and she is consenting to the agreement. That's my position. I can show it, but it takes several steps, including looking at the hebrew word being translated as "slave".

A person doesn't need to know Hebrew to recognize that the word in the first part of verse 7 is not the same word as at the end of verse 7. Though so many translations ignore that and mistranslate it.

וְכִֽי־יִמְכֹּר אִישׁ אֶת־בִּתּוֹ לְאָמָה לֹא תֵצֵא כְּצֵאת הָֽעֲבָדִֽים׃​
7 When a man sells his daughter as a אָמָה, she shall not go out as the male עֲבָדִֽ do.​

So, there are reasons, good reasons, that these verses in Exodus are not talking about property ownership. This doesn't excuse the other issues people criticise about the Bible. But this one issue is misunderstood.

I don't know.

Good. Me neither. So what ever is happening here is not an owner / slave relationship.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This illustrates the special pleading that goes on in religious thinking. This thread advocates for a type of evidence that is unreliable and questionable, and when explanations from science are provided as a rebuttal to bad religious conclusions only then do believers demand evidence. Of course this request is often honored with the science and evidence only to be rejected.
Yes, and in my opinion, there is no duty to use one's higher standards when not dealing with other critical thinkers, but rather, with those who don't use, know, or respect those things. This is why I frequently say that there is no burden of proof with faith-based thinkers, because there is never a burden of proof with somebody that can't make or understand a sound argument and isn't cooperating in the process, but rather, is resisting an idea that they prefer to consider wrong. One theist recently declared evolution to be all speculation, and after disagreeing, I asked why that would be a dealbreaker for him, since that describes his theistic worldview.

Like you, I have also learned that when such people demand proof, they're not really interested in seeing anything, won't even click on a link, are just trying to represent themselves as being evidenced-based thinkers. It seems to be more important to be perceived as using evidence that to use evidence. So, I don't do that any more. I just make claims to them and feel no burden of proof. If I flesh the claims out with evidence and argument, it is for the possible benefit of other kinds of readers like you who actually do evaluate arguments impartially and competently
Now you're saying that you aren't going to the source.
OK, fair enough. Let me clarify. I'm going to the apologist's source, which is his Bible in some English translation, and not taking his interpretation of those words over my own where they disagree. The apologist is a motivated (tendentious) reasoner, and so his conclusions will always be whatever supports his belief that his god is good, right, honest, benevolent, effective, etc., and his scriptures free of error.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
@blü 2 listed several that you never really addressed. Let's start with those.


In your analogy, God is either so unwilling or so unable to take care of his teeth that they all end up needing to be pulled. You consider this "the right way"?


An even better approach: not burning the food in the first place.

If God has to decide how to best deal with food burnt to his pan, then this means he's a rather imperfect cook.


Does God know what to do to to avoid burning his food?


You've given me no reason to think your God isn't foolish.
Well, it's not my fault you missed the point. How did you arrive at God burning the pan, may I ask?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Good. The word "sold". Depending on the english translation, there's also the word "slave". That's 2 words. @blü 2 brought the RSV, I don't love it, but I agreed to use it.

I'll color code the words that indicate ownership in red, and the words which moderate that in blue.

7 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do.​
8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; he shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt faithlessly with her.​

So that's 2 to 5, owned as property compared to not owned as property. Not owned as property clearly wins. What's happening is a transfer of custody where betrothal is required and she is consenting to the agreement. That's my position. I can show it, but it takes several steps, including looking at the hebrew word being translated as "slave".

A person doesn't need to know Hebrew to recognize that the word in the first part of verse 7 is not the same word as at the end of verse 7. Though so many translations ignore that and mistranslate it.

וְכִֽי־יִמְכֹּר אִישׁ אֶת־בִּתּוֹ לְאָמָה לֹא תֵצֵא כְּצֵאת הָֽעֲבָדִֽים׃​
7 When a man sells his daughter as a אָמָה, she shall not go out as the male עֲבָדִֽ do.​

So, there are reasons, good reasons, that these verses in Exodus are not talking about property ownership. This doesn't excuse the other issues people criticise about the Bible. But this one issue is misunderstood.



Good. Me neither. So what ever is happening here is not an owner / slave relationship.
I don't need anything beyond "sold her" to know that's how property is dealt with.
I don't even need the word "slave." I don't need to know that the slave owner can't re-sell her or whatever. Doesn't matter.
What is being described is an exchange of money for property.
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
OK, fair enough. Let me clarify. I'm going to the apologist's source, which is his Bible in some English translation, and not taking his interpretation of those words over my own where they disagree. The apologist is a motivated (tendentious) reasoner, and so his conclusions will always be whatever supports his belief that his god is good, right, honest, benevolent, effective, etc., and his scriptures free of error.

Thank you. So you have an interpretation, and they have an interpretation. What data are you using to conclude that the so-called apologist is wrong and you are correct? How have you established, in your own mind, that you are impartial? ( That's what you said originally. )

And even more important, at least for me, so many label whomever disagree with the Atheist talking points "apologist". What data are you using to determine a person's motivation during a conversation? For me, I don't assume that a critic is going to be unfair with scripture until they demonstrate that. But I have to be careful, because so many critics behave this way.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
When speaking about evidences and proofs with regards to God here I am not speaking about scientific proofs but spiritual proofs. I believe that the human mind cannot grasp God so it is fruitless trying to prove God scientifically as we are told He is Spirit. Then to prove God we need to look at spiritual evidences.

What are spiritual proofs and evidences of God? Some say the virtues. Others, the transformative effect the Teachings of the Great Spiritual Teachers have had on the character of the individual and society. Still others say miracles.

Readers might like to contribute by adding how their Prophet’s teachings transformed the life of the individual and society or add their own spiritual proofs of God’s existence.
The "other" proof might be the "God particle", which is the particle which supposedly changes the massless (spiritual) into the mass particle, which is with respect to matter, which was supposedly discovered at CERN. Or the working theory that there is more "dark" energy than energy of light. The spiritual/physical proof can be detected by looking at CNN or listening to Progressive speakers.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I don't own any humans. Slavery is immoral.

Noted.

I don't need anything beyond "sold her" to know that's how property is dealt with.

How is it dealt with? How much money changed hands?

I don't even need the word "slave." I don't need to know that the slave owner can't re-sell her or whatever. Doesn't matter.

So, you have admitted to ignoring all the other words except 1. That is rather shallow don't you think?

What is being described is an exchange of money for property.

But, you are ignoring the description, correct? The description doesn't matter, and all that matters is a word. The word is in a foreign language, and you don't really know what that word means.

There's actually a couple of good reasons to understand the word in Hebrew is closer to a transfer which often describes a "sale", but not always.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Noted.



How is it dealt with? How much money changed hands?

I don't care how much money was involved. Selling someone means that they are property.

So, you have admitted to ignoring all the other words except 1. That is rather shallow don't you think?

No, I don't. I explained why.

But, you are ignoring the description, correct? The description doesn't matter, and all that matters is a word. But you don't really know what that word means.
I just explained this.

It describes an exchange of money for a human being (property).
Why are you trying so hard to defend this?
 
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