Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

[Ehav4Ever]

So, it sounds like God or Hashem really can't do anything and everything. But he has to work within certain parameters.

I can't speak for a god. In terms of Hashem, Hashem can do anything he wants. Hashem "chooses" to create/establish reality the way he wants.

 

[YoursTrue]

So, it sounds like God or Hashem really can't do anything and everything. But he has to work within certain parameters.



Really? So, you're using an example with fossil fuel? A fuel that is suffocating and destroying our planet? However, you're trying to say that there's a 'correct' way to use it.



I don't know. Solar, wind, hydroelectric, or geothermal would have been better examples to me.

The Almighty works with his own parameters.

 

[rational experiences]

Pretty basic science in man's agreement is a human con.

Based only by choices in civilisation human living statuses. Motivated only in trade by invention and resource.

Is the first given human information before new theism.

A humans background in science history says I live on rock planet earth.

As I live on rock it is the background mass historic first.... as it doesn't own a black core hole.

It's filled mass a body of a planet.

So men taught the background is rock.

Time shift back in time as a theist on earth the human is legal position. You don't personally time shift.

Says a hole O not actually a Hole opened as mass from a base of rock O lifted by pressures into a mountain whose inner core opened into hot dense radiating mass.

Time shift from a humans position of understanding is directly advised.

Once it interacted with vacuum void so it began to produce gases.

Gases became the exact equals background in which life exists inside of.

So whatever radiation existed now became a gas. Why a gas is a resource and a fuel.

As we live inside a spirit law not a mass law as energy is in mass. Man was told never change any holy heavens spirit of we'd all burn to death as we aren't mass or energy.

Background review as a human on earth in legal law position.

Pretty basic why science is actually Satanism only.

As men time shifted converted earths dusts into molten.law themselves first Removed it back to empty volcano mass as a hole in earth. Themselves.

Total history of themed radiation from mass gone by man's science.

So the sun above crossed over and gave it back. Volcanos mass. As the law pressure changes caused it.

Why We don't want the mass of science given back rule.

 

[David Davidovich]

Because, the Torah was given as a written and oral format from Hashem - the source of reality. The oral Torah explains these issues going back about 2,000 years.

Besides, ancient civilizations appear to have been more advanced that some modern western scholars let on. There are some think that this concept is a mistake.

A Joe Rogan video? About lost civilizations? Although better proof to me would be Hebrew text and ancient rabbinical writings that showed advanced medical and technological information since those texts are supposed to not have been lost and are supposed to have stayed intact for thousands and thousands of years.

 

[David Davidovich]

I can't speak for a god. In terms of Hashem, Hashem can do anything he wants. Hashem "chooses" to create/establish reality the way he wants.

I don't mean to insult you, but that sounds like a Christian answer.

 

[David Davidovich]

The Almighty works with his own parameters.

Sounds like you and @Ehav4Ever are finally in agreement. LOL (See my above post.)

 

[leroy]

Why didn't the universe always exist? Because since God is supposed to be outside of time and is supposed to have always existed, then how could God have used a point in time to start creation? Any thoughts on this?

Imagine you creating a video game (a second life stylle video game)


This video game would have it's own time (independent of earths time)


From the point of view of the characters of the game, you would be timeless (you exist outside their time)

But eventhough you are outside time that doest prevent you for creating a videogame with an initial time.

 

[leroy]

There is no reason why the universe requires a being, as far as we know. Certainly i have never heard of a hypothesis that can show, using either mathematics or extrapolation from observable data that, that god did it

All the hypothesis that point to a First Cause (rather that an eternal chain of causes) ...... would beca hypothesis that would smell a lot like "God did it"


And we do have that type of hypothesis

 

[ChristineM]

All the hypothesis that point to a First Cause (rather that an eternal chain of causes) ...... would beca hypothesis that would smell a lot like "God did it"


And we do have that type of hypothesis

No, there are no scientific hypothesis that say god did it. There may he religious belief but i don't think they count as valid scientific hypothesis.

The point being all the scientific hypothesis are based on observable phenomena, measurements and/or mathematics.

The god did it ideas is based on belief which is why they are not scientific hypothesis

 

[F1fan]

Some scientists spend a lot of time thinking about it.

That's because they are trained and informed to a degree that they CAN comprehend what they observe. The people who are confused and struggling are theists trying to make their ancient stories fit science and observations.

It seems like a game to them and some of them understand a lot about physics and get paid a good amount to teach these concepts. Write books. Papers.

How is professional and expert academic work a game? This illustrates the disrespect and contempt many conservative religious people have for the sciences. The only reason for this is because science doesn't back up religious interpretations of ancient stories and religious beliefs. The "game" is those religious people who involve themselves in bad faith religion and disinformation like creationism. That is not theology, it is deliberate fraud. Creationist businesses, like the Discovery Institute, are not science labs. They are religious groups in rented office space writing false disinformation for guilible Christians.

 

[F1fan]

The universe having a beginning does not, in any way, contradict the notion that the universe has always existed.


The beginning of the universe = the beginning of time.
Always = for all of time.

Go back in time. Pick ANY moment in time. Go ahead. ANY MOMENT IN TIME.

Was there a universe at that time?
Yes. Yes, there was.

At any moment IN TIME, the universe existed.
Hence, the universe always existed.
And it began when time began.

Right. Conservative Christians are terribly confused by the different disinformationn they ahve been exposed to over the years. It used to be that the Genesis myth was true, that the Ussher timeline was accurate, and the universe was formed from nothing by God over 6000 years ago. As creationists tried to make the Noah flood work with established facts that science was revealing, they ended up pushing creation back to about 10,000 years. What's the point if the Ussher timeline doesn't work any more?

So then creationists accpted an old earth, but all the rest was correct, and the Noah flood must have been a lot longer ago so that species could form. Genetics does not show this to be correct in any way. So then they say that the Big Bang was a creation event, that matter was created at this time. But then physicists explain that no, there was an existing singularity and the Big Bang was an event of existing energy. So God became the spark to start it all. Well that's Deism.

How they go from a divine spark all the way through billions of years before an earth is formed, and then get to a Jesus being born with the plan he will be executed as a sacrifice to God because God created humans in a way that needed saving?

Christians are all over the place, and there is no consistency among them as to what is the "truth". If only Jesus can come back and save these Christians from themselves.

 

[F1fan]

All the hypothesis that point to a First Cause (rather that an eternal chain of causes) ...... would beca hypothesis that would smell a lot like "God did it"

There is no such hypotheses. A hypothesis NEEDS to be based on facts and plausible. What you are referring to is religious arguments/ What makes them religious? They assume a God and other certain ideas are true. In science unnessesary assumptions can't be included.

And we do have that type of hypothesis

No you don't. You have bad faith religion not following the rules in science to create bad arguments. Why are they bad arguments? Because you make assumptions that are made to validate a conclusion, a logical fallacy. Theists then try to pass these off as equal to science, and/or reasoning.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I don't mean to insult you, but that sounds like a Christian answer.

Not insulted, but the statement isn't logical.

If something creates something else it does so by choice. If it itself is not limited and also not itself created by something else then it has the choice to choose how it does anything and everything. It is also not bound by the logic of something int created. Especially, when that something is so small in the scope of reality.

Besides, Torath Mosheh Jews are vey clear that Hashem is not a human being nor does Hashem have human logic. If a human, with the limited about of universal knowledge we have, thinks that the universe should have been created as something diffeent then it would stand to reason that a human would simply have to create a universe in the way they deem logical. If they can't do such a thing they are subject to whatever can and did.

If I remember correctly, Christianity took a few Torath Mosheh ideas here and there and then mixed them with the Avodah Zara of the people they trying to convince to convert to their ideas. Also, if I remember correctly various forms of Chistianity claim that the god they beleive is either became human or is like a human in some way. Torath Mosheh Jews make no such claim.

Thus, I don't see connection but if the conclusion is that this somehow sounds Christian - My response would be - chicken or the egg.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Sounds like you and @Ehav4Ever are finally in agreement. LOL (See my above post.)

It only makes sense that is something is the source of creation, and the ability to create, and it itself was not created by something else nor with something else, nor descended from something else, then said source calls the shots and not something it created. It also has full decision on it will make reality work, even if one of its creations has a different idea.

 

[David Davidovich]

Imagine you creating a video game (a second life stylle video game)


This video game would have it's own time (independent of earths time)


From the point of view of the characters of the game, you would be timeless (you exist outside their time)

But eventhough you are outside time that doest prevent you for creating a videogame with an initial time.

Well, the question to be asked with this scenario is: When (a time word) exactly was the second lifestyle video game created? And applying that to God, how could God have picked a particular time to create the universe if time really didn't exist... or doesn't exist?

 

[David Davidovich]

T
How is professional and expert academic work a game? This illustrates the disrespect and contempt many conservative religious people have for the sciences. The only reason for this is because science doesn't back up religious interpretations of ancient stories and religious beliefs.

That's the same thing that I was wondering about in regard to the game thing.

 

[David Davidovich]

Christians are all over the place, and there is no consistency among them as to what is the "truth". If only Jesus can come back and save these Christians from themselves.

LOL

 

[David Davidovich]

Not insulted, but the statement isn't logical.

If something creates something else it does so by choice. If it itself is not limited and also not itself created by something else then it has the choice to choose how it does anything and everything. It is also not bound by the logic of something int created. Especially, when that something is so small in the scope of reality.

Besides, Torath Mosheh Jews are vey clear that Hashem is not a human being nor does Hashem have human logic. If a human, with the limited about of universal knowledge we have, thinks that the universe should have been created as something diffeent then it would stand to reason that a human would simply have to create a universe in the way they deem logical. If they can't do such a thing they are subject to whatever can and did.

If I remember correctly, Christianity took a few Torath Mosheh ideas here and there and then mixed them with the Avodah Zara of the people they trying to convince to convert to their ideas. Also, if I remember correctly various forms of Chistianity claim that the god they beleive is either became human or is like a human in some way. Torath Mosheh Jews make no such claim.

Thus, I don't see connection but if the conclusion is that this somehow sounds Christian - My response would be - chicken or the egg.

Well, thankfully, the rules of this forum require that we quote the posts that we we are replying to, (EVEN THOUGH SOME PEOPLE HAVE A TENDECY TO REFUSE TO DO THIS ) but I digress. But if you click on the little upward arrow next to your name in your quote and then click on the upward arrow in the name of the quote in that reply, until you go all the way back to where this part of the conversation started, you will see that what I said about you sounding like a Christian was because I felt that I kind of got a non-answer, which was similar to YoursTrue's answer (who is a Chrisitan). Because it doesn't seem likely to me as to why it would take a Super Being who is supposed to be Almighty, Omnipotent, All-powerful, All-knowing, etc., take a millions and millions or perhaps even a billions of billions of years process to create something, when by definition, he should be able to do anything that he wants to with a snap of a finger (or whatever is comparable to him or it). But instead, what you explained was that he needed to do it this way and that it is beyond human comprehension as to why. However, that sounds like the logical fallacy of the argument from ignorance, and perhaps the Christians did borrow that from the Jews. But it's the same type of explanation that Christians use that is given in place of an actual explanation.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But if you click on the little upward arrow next to your name in your quote and then click on the upward arrow in the name of the quote in that reply, until you go all the way back to where this part of the conversation started, you will see that what I said about you sounding like a Christian was because I felt that I kind of got a non-answer,

I read all of that I understand what you were saying. What I am saying is that by using the words "god", "religion", and "morality they are not applicable to what Torath Mosheh Jews actually hold by. I.e. the foreign terms, "in English", mean something different than what is found in the Hebrew text. That is why people who want to start at an English basis will always be tripped up. The Torah was not written in the English language nor was it written using western logic. Thus, I will go over the answer again below.

which was similar to YoursTrue's answer (who is a Chrisitan). Because it doesn't seem likely to me as to why it would take a Super Being who is supposed to be Almighty, Omnipotent, All-powerful, All-knowing, etc.,

Again, this is completely the wrong direction - because as I stated above it is not the perspective of the Torah. We are not talking about "Super Beings." A super being can easily be the creation of a more super being. A super being can easily have limitations. A super being can easily be bound by terms like Almighty, Omnipotent, All-powerful, All-knowing, etc., and the arguement people want to make because of said terms.

If something is the Source of reality and it is the Source of the ability to create, then none of these terms have meaning. i.e. by defintion the Source created all aspects of reality, is not bound by the logic of its creations, nor is there anything above it placing barriers on how the Source wants to do something. If the source wants to create or allow a universe to develop in what is peceived to be be billions of years to one of its creations it is only logical to say that also space-time are one of the things it created. If time is one of its creations then the concept of time is not a constraint for the Source - it is a contraint of its creations that change due to time. Thus, the creations may feel like a different method may have been better (shorter, longer, less complex, etc.) but that feeling by a created thing is meaningless because the Source is not bound by what anything or anyone it created thinks is a more logical process.

Besides, there are some humans who jump for joy and are in amazement of a universe/reality that is potentially billions of year old, from our perspective. There are some humans who are excited when they learn that reality Is full of complex process and such. The concept of understanding the reality we were created in has sparked all kinds of revolutions in human history and employees countless people who have an interest in understanding how the universe works.

Further to that, when a Torath Mosheh Jews look at this complex reality and universe it causes us to be in awe of the Source and this has sparked thousands of years of Torath Mosheh Jewish discussion. It has also provided Torath Mosheh Jews with the strength to survive some of our darkest challenges in history because we know that even when our enemies have tried to wipe out the Jewish people the Source of reality is above and beyond those said enemies.

take a millions and millions or perhaps even a billions of billions of years process to create something, when by definition, he should be able to do anything that he wants to with a snap of a finger (or whatever is comparable to him or it).

Again, wrong concept. From your perspective as a human millions or billions of years is a long time and a part of your definition for what the Source should do. That is not the case, the Source CHOSE to do develop reality the way it wanted. By definition it doesn't have to snap any fingers or anything else. Also, because the Source is not subject to time, one of its creations, from the Source's perspective (again getting metaphysical) billions and even trillions of years is less than a snap of a finger - because past, present, and future are a creation - the source is not bound by them. Especially when the Source has the choice to do so for the purposes the Source wants. There is a Torath Mosheh Jewish concept that humanity benefits all the time from the CHOICE of the Source to create reality as it did, whether we know it or not.

Again, the Source didn't have to create anything if it didn't want to. The Source didn't have create reality the way it did. Due to it being the Source it CHOSE to and becaue it has nothing placing barriers on what it should do, then its choice is what is it is. I personally like the fact that the Source chose to create a complex universe with all the various facets that exist in it. I know that I am not alone in this.

But instead, what you explained was that he needed to do it this way and that it is beyond human comprehension as to why.

I never wrote that the Source "needed" to do it this way. At the most I said that is logical to me that the the reality being so complex is proof to me that the source would be even more complex than what it created and humans being so small in the universe there are areas that we can comprehend and some areas in this lifetime we can't. Also, that it makes sense that something is complex creates things that are complex. i.e. a person has to know their limits and human development has leapead forward at times because of the unknown.

However, that sounds like the logical fallacy of the argument from ignorance, and perhaps the Christians did borrow that from the Jews. But it's the same type of explanation that Christians use that is given in place of an actual explanation.

I never stated that the Source "needed" to anything a certain way. I stated it being the Source with nothing above it placing barriers on it it can CHOOSE to do things the way it chooses. Again, what Christians borrowed from Torath Mosheh Jews is meaningless especially when it is clear that they took some Torath Mosheh ideas/concepts and mixed it with Avodah Zara.

 

[YoursTrue]

Sounds like you and @Ehav4Ever are finally in agreement. LOL (See my above post.)

What might make you think God Almighty does not set the parameters?