Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

[David Davidovich]

Yes. The Rambam also stated in his book the Moreh Nevuchim "Guide to the Perplexed" that the Jews who are closest to Hashem are those who know Torah and Halakha as well as science, mathematics, and various other sciences in how the natural world works.

Wow... That's very interesting.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Okay... But since this thread is about existence and creation, could you at least briefly explain to me why the animal and insect kingdoms are so violent and predatory? What is the Torath Mosheh Jewish belief as far as whether or not this was the Source of Creation's original intent? Although, I do understand the reality of the biogeochemical cycle:

The description you provided is one the views.

Plants and some animals obtain their nutrient needs from solutions in the environment. Other animals acquire the bulk of their needs from the plants and animals that they consume. After the death of an organism, the elements fixed in its body are returned to the environment through the action of decomposers (decay organisms such as bacteria, insects, and fungi) and become available to other living organisms again.​

In this view, the above is not violence. No different than a bolder falling on a rock is not violent. It is simply the method of Plants and some animals obtain their nutrient needs from solutions in the environment.

Another view, is that this is the result of environment post Adam and Hawwah making their decision. This is one of those areas where people are able to conclude what they can from the reality as it is. i.e. there is no requirement to come to a particular conclusion.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

interpretation (misinterpretation?) of what they read in Genesis 1:29-30: and Genesis 9:3:

There is a Torath Mosheh view that includes, BUT, it is more detailed than what the English text gives. I.e. how much time took place while Noach and his family were in the ark vs. what changed in in the planetary system while they were there. This is one of those issues where a balenced approach that can be taken is to review all of the different views found across Jewish commentaries and take them all into account.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I said that some hypothesis (those who point to a First cause) suggest the existence of God

No, they don't.

 

[David Davidovich]

The description you provided is one the views.

Plants and some animals obtain their nutrient needs from solutions in the environment. Other animals acquire the bulk of their needs from the plants and animals that they consume. After the death of an organism, the elements fixed in its body are returned to the environment through the action of decomposers (decay organisms such as bacteria, insects, and fungi) and become available to other living organisms again.​

In this view, the above is not violence. No different than a bolder falling on a rock is not violent. It is simply the method of Plants and some animals obtain their nutrient needs from solutions in the environment.

Okay, I can accept that.

Another view, is that this is the result of environment post Adam and Hawwah making their decision. This is one of those areas where people are able to conclude what they can from the reality as it is. i.e. there is no requirement to come to a particular conclusion.

Not even in view of what is said at Genesis 1:29-30 and Genesis 9:3? Because doesn't the Torah trump what people can conclude? (See the last part of my post # 260.)

 

[David Davidovich]

There is a Torath Mosheh view that includes, BUT, it is more detailed than what the English text gives. I.e. how much time took place while Noach and his family were in the ark vs. what changed in in the planetary system while they were there. This is one of those issues where a balenced approach that can be taken is to review all of the different views found across Jewish commentaries and take them all into account.

Well, that is certainly vague, therefore, could you give me an example of what another Torath Mosheh viewpoint could be on Genesis 9:3?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Not even in view of what is said at Genesis 1:29-30 and Genesis 9:3? Because doesn't the Torah trump what people can conclude? (See the last part of my post # 260.)

We are talking about the predatory vs. prey circumstance of animals. Not people.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, that is certainly vague, therefore, could you give me an example of what another Torath Mosheh viewpoint could be on Genesis 9:3?

Of course it is vague. I am giving you a short translation of something that is contained in numerous books for numerous pages in Hebrew and Aramaic. You have to accept that you are at a langauge deficit that a Christian site like Bible gateway can resolve.

 

[YoursTrue]

Snake eyes on what? Jewish writings for thousands of years have been discussing medecine and technology. Many of the greatest leaders in Jewish history were scientists and doctors. There is no reason, based on the Torah, that Jews are supposed to be superhuman mutants because of the Torah. There is no where in the Torah where a claim is made.

What is stated is that by keeping the Torah Jews would be able to survive as an ethnic group, even in exile, and to be able to advance with the reality as it exists.



Yet, you have never read a text in Hebrew. How would you know if that information is in them or not? For example, have you ever read the Rambam's treastise on medicine?

In reference to survival, there are concepts in the Torah that clearly bring out hygienic principles that were not necessarily followed by the nations surrounding the Israelites. Israel’s laws reflected medical concepts and views on sanitation that were far ahead of their time.
God’s Laws on Hygiene Were Ahead of Their Time — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)

 

[David Davidovich]

We are talking about the predatory vs. prey circumstance of animals. Not people.

But Genesis 1:29-30 and Genesis 9:3 mentions that plant food was originally for both humans and animals. Isn't that the way the Hebrew text translates those verses?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But Genesis 1:29-30 and Genesis 9:3 mentions that plant food was originally for both humans and animals. Isn't that the way the Hebrew text translates those verses?

If you look at what is mentioned for people (1:27 to 29) addresses humanity. It mentions several different food types.

But Genesis 1:29-30 and Genesis 9:3 mentions that plant food was originally for both humans and animals. Isn't that the way the Hebrew text translates those verses?

The second view is that all animals ate certain types of vegetation and only after the change in reality due to Adam's and Hawwah's (Eve) decision did the animals that had predatory potential change.

 

[David Davidovich]

If you look at what is mentioned for people (1:27 to 29) addresses humanity. It mentions several different food types.


View attachment 72552

The second view is that all animals ate certain types of vegetation and only after the change in reality due to Adam's and Hawwah's (Eve) decision did the animals that had predatory potential change.

So, in the first view, did the small amount of animal species that could eat meat ride along in Noah's ark during the global flood? And if so, what did they eat? And in the second view, why would Hashem give some of the animals predatory potential?

 

[David Davidovich]

In reference to survival, there are concepts in the Torah that clearly bring out hygienic principles that were not necessarily followed by the nations surrounding the Israelites. Israel’s laws reflected medical concepts and views on sanitation that were far ahead of their time.
God’s Laws on Hygiene Were Ahead of Their Time — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)

Far ahead of their time? Carrying around a little shovel for your poop? But I think that you should try doing your own research on topics.

 

[YoursTrue]

Far ahead of their time? Carrying around a little shovel for your poop? But I think that you should try doing your own research on topics.

It's more than "carrying around a little shovel," etc. I suggest you read the laws that Moses gave the people.

 

[YoursTrue]

The description you provided is one the views.

Plants and some animals obtain their nutrient needs from solutions in the environment. Other animals acquire the bulk of their needs from the plants and animals that they consume. After the death of an organism, the elements fixed in its body are returned to the environment through the action of decomposers (decay organisms such as bacteria, insects, and fungi) and become available to other living organisms again.​

In this view, the above is not violence. No different than a bolder falling on a rock is not violent. It is simply the method of Plants and some animals obtain their nutrient needs from solutions in the environment.

Another view, is that this is the result of environment post Adam and Hawwah making their decision. This is one of those areas where people are able to conclude what they can from the reality as it is. i.e. there is no requirement to come to a particular conclusion.

In reference, there are occasions where violently inclined animals befriend what would normally be considered prey. It is the opinion of some that animals became violent towards each other and humans after some time but not at first.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, in the first view, did the small amount of animal species that could eat meat ride along in Noah's ark during the global flood? And if so, what did they eat? And in the second view, why would Hashem give some of the animals predatory potential?

Yes, there were some that didn't. There is a Midrash that explains that some of the more uncontrolable one stayed outside and attacked any people who tried to come near the boat. There is a Midrash that states that the animals were put to sleep inside of the boat. Some of these midrashim imply that it there was no way to fit all the animals "naturally" inside a boat of the dimensions given and that Hashem caused the ability for them all to fit and there may even be one source I once found that may suggest that time inside operated different than outside.

Four-dimensional space - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[David Davidovich]

It's more than "carrying around a little shovel," etc. I suggest you read the laws that Moses gave the people.

I have. However, you and that Watchtower article are getting your times incorrect.

• Waste was deposited in streets. Polluted water, contaminated food, and other kinds of refuse created unsanitary conditions that contributed to a high rate of disease and infant mortality.

The time period being described is in the Middle Ages, however, the cleaner systems in gentile nations that were described in the videos that I provided were referring to the Bronze Age period, which was the same period as the little shovels mentioned in Deuteronomy. But I suggest that you watch the videos that I provided. Plus, I'll make it easier on you and post links at specific spots on the video: at 6:41 in one of the videos, and at 0:37 in the other one.

 

[YoursTrue]

I have. However, you and that Watchtower article are getting your times incorrect.

The time period being described is in the Middle Ages, however, the cleaner systems in gentile nations that were described in the videos that I provided were referring to the Bronze Age period, which was the same period as the little shovels mentioned in Deuteronomy. But I suggest that you watch the videos that I provided. Plus, I'll make it easier on you and post links at specific spots on the video: at 6:41 in one of the videos, and at 0:37 in the other one.

The times are not the issue here, it is the fact that the Israelites were told to not touch a dead body, and if they do they are to sequester themselves, and we know that Dr. Semmelweis was virtually driven crazy because his peers did not believe him insofar as women giving birth by doctors with unwashed, unclean hands.

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said:
So, in the first view, did the small amount of animal species that could eat meat ride along in Noah's ark during the global flood? And if so, what did they eat? And in the second view, why would Hashem give some of the animals predatory potential?

Yes, there were some that didn't. There is a Midrash that explains that some of the more uncontrolable one stayed outside and attacked any people who tried to come near the boat.

I see. Well, I wonder what happened when it started to rain.

There is a Midrash that states that the animals were put to sleep inside of the boat. Some of these midrashim imply that it there was no way to fit all the animals "naturally" inside a boat of the dimensions given and that Hashem caused the ability for them all to fit and there may even be one source I once found that may suggest that time inside operated different than outside.

Four-dimensional space - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Well, I guess it's good to have a variety of conflicting answers so that valid questions can always be covered.

 

[David Davidovich]

There is a Midrash that states that the animals were put to sleep inside of the boat.

So, in that Midrash, I supposed that Genesis 6:19-21 doesn't mean anything:

19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”