Evidence

[leroy]

For a start you could begin to acknowledge when you have been shown to be wrong.

Sure,

1 Quote any claim that you think is wrong

2 show that it is wrong

3 then I will admit that I am wrong.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Money is an instrument of exchange. It saves us from having to barter everything..

Of course it is..
Paper money started off as a promissory note, for the deposit of gold. The goldsmiths then realised that they could "issue" notes without the gold being deposited, and became rich overnight.

Eventually, govt. stepped in and regulated, making it law that only they could do this evil. Hmmm.

What alternative system do you propose? Serious question, and I may agree with you. The problem is that any system is going to have to cope with greed, which is not going to go away..

This thread is about evidence, and I was stating how I am certain about what God prohibits such as usury, being a major cause of climate-change, and enmity between mankind.

One could discuss about how mankind can live without usury .. it is not as if it didn't happen in the past. It doesn't mean that we have to go back to living in the stone-age.

.. although that is likely to happen, as I cannot see that mankind is going to change without major war, in any case.
Mankind do not like losing their status in the world .. they are prepared to kill others to keep it.

Incidentally, there is nothing to stop us distributing wealth more fairly under any system. Progressive taxation is one means,.

..but that's not how big business works.
Trump did not build up his empire by paying tax.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sure,

1 Quote any claim that you think is wrong

2 show that it is wrong

3 then I will admit that I am wrong.

No, sorry, We are not playing that game. I do not fret over your past losses.

 

[leroy]

No, sorry, We are not playing that game. I do not fret over your past losses.

Ok so do you expect me to admit that I was wrong despite the fact that I have no idea on what claim are you talking about .

Ok I admit my mi mistake.

It that good enough for you?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok so do you expect me to admit that I was wrong despite the fact that I have no idea on what claim are you talking about .

Ok I admit my mi mistake.

It that good enough for you?

No. it has to happen in the correction of your posts. A fake apology will not get you anywhere. Just act better in the future and people will treat you better. Most of us do not hold grudges. They do no good.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Christ means "Annointed One". Jesus was he Christ, Annointed of the Holy Spirit, not humanity.

Those that receive Christ, can reflect the Holy Spirit, only to the extent they polish the Mirror of their hearts.

Regards Tony

"And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." (Ez 36:27)

 

[PearlSeeker]

No, we can't deny them, but we don't have to believe in everything that is in the Bible. Jesus did not write the Bible.

If original words are lost then it makes no sense to send a Messenger only to a few people while the rest of the world remains in darkness. This is a very inefficient way of communication.

 

[Valjean]

If original words are lost then it makes no sense to send a Messenger only to a few people while the rest of the world remains in darkness. This is a very inefficient way of communication.

Not when the messenger's claim is one of a million others, and there's nothing in particular to set it apart.
I'd advocate God hacking into every radio, TV and internet feed simultaneously, stating his message, and effecting a series of worldwide miracles to demonstrate his power.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'd advocate God hacking into every radio, TV and internet feed simultaneously, stating his message, and effecting a series of worldwide miracles to demonstrate his power.

That sounds more like something the anti-Christ would do.

I don't know .. aren't people gullible.

 

[F1fan]

..and that diverts blame away from us?

If Christians, Muslims, Baha'i, and others insist there is a God, and it creatd everything, then it is you believers that have to be accountable for what you claim, and then fail to demonstrate is true with credible evidence. We critical thinkers throw our your magical claims, but you theists want to throw out your Creator being responsible for what it created. Now that is fine if you are Deists, but you all are theists, and your God is asked to intervene when trouble hits.

..wishful thinking.

The wishful thinking is by those who think referring to Gods answers any questions. It only creates more questions and answers nothing. Critical thinkers reason with evidence to make valid conclusions.

I'm not a religious extremist .. unless you see praying 5 times a day as extreme .. you probably do.

I see any believer who thinks their personal religious veiws applies to those who disagree as extemists. Your arguments against banks and loans is highly flawed. You have your belief because you interpret holy books that way, while many of your fellow believers disregard it. You cite greed and economic progress as a bad effect of loaning money, yet greed is expressed even when loans are not part of the issue. And you think pollution is caused by loans? Well there is probably a cause and effect due to progress being tied to access to money through loans, but as a cause of pollution? Not really. As we see there are many nations setting anti-pollution policies and still have banking. It's not like loans themsleves create emmissions, it is indirect, and there are ways to minimize emmissions.

More nonsense.
Why don't you stick to the subject, instead of continually diverting to ad hominem..

The subject is evidence, and as long as some theists show themselves to have contempt for science, and evidence, then it will be an observed fact that is pointed out. Why don't you acknowledge that creationists have contempt for science? That many conservative Christians reject climate change and vaccinations? Making observations that are embarrassing to believers is not an ad hom, it's an observation.

PS we are discussing the evils of usury.

You are, and I am asking you for evidence why your claims are valid, and thus far it is exc eptionally weak. Your interpretation of holy books is laughable as evidence, because there is no God known to exist that would suggest these stories are true.

Money is not a commodity .. it shouldn't be traded as if it is.

Why not?

The whole financial system depends on the manipulation of interest rates, as paper money is in reality worthless.
It is a system that makes the rich richer, and the poor poorer.

Well this does happen. If you wnat to argue against predatory loans I will agree with you. there have been laws banning it, and many have been prosecuted for criminal loan practicies. I have a problem with the federal loan rate of around 5-6% that has led to a great deal of hardship for people paying back loans. Some of the blame is students talking out such big loans, but then again they are young and should have been given better advice from schools. But it is schools who got the money, so did they really have an incentive to talk students out of big loans? Here we are with an issue about ethics, and exploiting people. For some reason you have yet to mention this and only rail on the basic function of loaning money. The problems I outline here is a basis for a good argument, but your argument is broad, vague, and doesn't acknowledge the good it does.

Almighty God does not like greed .. the world is in a mess because of greed.
Fortunately, this world is temporary, and we don't have to live in it forever.

And who made all these greedy people? Hmmm, it wasn't the CREATOR was it?

Gee whiz, if a Creator didn't want a bunch of immature people who are so easily attracted to vice it should have made them more naturally virtuous, don't you think? Your God sets a lot of rules (some of which become invalid) and many who violate these rules go on to live long carefree lives and die of natural causes. No wonder so many others aren't afraid of being greedy even though you believers insist God will get them in the end. They aren't as afraid as you are. Maybe they know something you don't.

It's all in the mind..
We get used to a system and cannot imagine anything else.

Like being a Mulsim?

There is a certain amount of wealth in the world, and right now, it is not fairly distributed.
Naturally, the ones who benefit would like to see it continue as it is .. while those that are suffering at the bottom of the ladder, would like to see change.

Uh oh, you're not becoming a progressive liberal, are you? You must not feel too passionate about this issue because you don't bother offering any more thought than a bullet point.

This creates enmity and war. Civil war, and international war.
Peace cannot be obtained by ignoring spiritual truth.

I like what Bronowski said of war, he called in a "highly organized form of theft" and that is true. What Russia is attempting to do in Ukraine is theft. And this comes from poor mental health and many vices of thought. You might call that spiritual but there are many religious who do it to. Look at Islamic extremists in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iran.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That sounds more like something the anti-Christ would do.

I don't know .. aren't people gullible.

And why would God created such a being? Omniscient and omnipotent he would have been at fault if he did.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I see any believer who thinks their personal religious veiws applies to those who disagree as extemists..

It is not my personal religious view .. it is made very clear in the Qur'an, and I understand why usury is prohibited.
Many atheists, such as those who study sociology and Karl Marx also understand why it is distasteful.

Your arguments against banks and loans is highly flawed..

You saying so does not make it true.

You cite greed and economic progress as a bad effect of loaning money,.

It is not "economic progress" .. it makes some people rich, at the expense of others.

And you think pollution is caused by loans?

..not loans .. usury.
In some places, people have next to nothing, while in others people are subjected to high levels of toxins caused by excess wealth.
..and it is those who are wealthy that have a large carbon footprint.

As we see there are many nations setting anti-pollution policies and still have banking..

..and is this going to solve the climate-change emergency? No.

Why don't you acknowledge that creationists have contempt for science?

I do acknowledge that both believers and disbelievers can be ignorant.
I do not enjoy getting into debates based on "creationist/evolutionist", because it is all based on stereotypes.
..as if people have to be on one side or the other. Wrong!

Your interpretation of holy books is laughable as evidence,.

You may laugh .. but while there are so many people suffering through no fault of their own, I take climate-change and its causes very seriously.

Why not?

Jesus, peace be with him, overturned the tables of the money-changers in the temple ..he disapproved.
..and the Sanhedrin plotted against him. Nothing new there.

Why should a person make a profit just because he has money?
That is not work. It is immoral earnings.

You know .. the golden rule .. treat your neighbour as yourself.

Well this does happen. If you wnat to argue against predatory loans I will agree with you. there have been laws banning it, and many have been prosecuted for criminal loan practicies. I have a problem with the federal loan rate of around 5-6% that has led to a great deal of hardship for people paying back loans..

Obviously, the greater the amount of interest charged, the more oppressive it is, yes.

The problems I outline here is a basis for a good argument, but your argument is broad, vague, and doesn't acknowledge the good it does.

It is all subjective. You see "good", because there are winners in such a system.
Most people did not see the collapse of financial institutions in 2008 as "good". It led to the so-called "Arab spring" amongst other things .. such as massive cuts in public spending around the world.

I like what Bronowski said of war, he called in a "highly organized form of theft" and that is true..

I have no idea what you are talking about.
War occurs through enmity, and it is not something desirable.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." (Ez 36:27)

That is what it means to be born again.

This is acceptance of Christ, not a direct Revelation from God.

This is also a proof of the Word. That it becomes the standard to live by, even if we have not embraced the Message.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

If original words are lost then it makes no sense to send a Messenger only to a few people while the rest of the world remains in darkness. This is a very inefficient way of communication.

Baha'u'llah was sent by God to the entire world. If most of the world still remains in darkness, it is not God's fault.

Seven reasons why more people have not recognized Baha’u’llah yet

 

[Truthseeker]

Baha'u'llah was sent by God to the entire world. If most of the world still remains in darkness, it is not God's fault.

Seven reasons why more people have not recognized Baha’u’llah yet

I like that creative way to respond. Use a previous post to convey your message. Why waste time typing?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Baha'u'llah was sent by God to the entire world. If most of the world still remains in darkness, it is not God's fault.

Seven reasons why more people have not recognized Baha’u’llah yet

Actually it is if one claims that God is omniscient. And it doubly is if he is omniscient and omnipotent.

 

[Trailblazer]

I like that creative way to respond. Use a previous post to convey your message. Why waste time typing?

You have no idea how much I have saved from past posts in Word documents.
If I think I might use the post again I save it with the link.
How else do you think I can manage all the posts I often get?

 

[PearlSeeker]

Baha'u'llah was sent by God to the entire world. If most of the world still remains in darkness, it is not God's fault.

Seven reasons why more people have not recognized Baha’u’llah yet

We were talking about other Manifestations and message in the Bible contradicting Baha'u'llah (different kinds if theophany, HS for all...).

 

[Trailblazer]

Actually it is if one claims that God is omniscient. And it doubly is if he is omniscient and omnipotent.

I guess you did not bother to read the list of seven reasons. They are all owing to human factors.
It is completely irrelevant that God is omnipotent an omniscient because God is not going to "step in" and do what God has enjoined humans to do through Baha'u'llah. God gave man free will to choose so God is not going to override human free will and "make" people believe believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

We were talking about other Manifestations and message in the Bible contradicting Baha'u'llah (different kinds if theophany, HS for all...).

You said: If original words are lost then it makes no sense to send a Messenger only to a few people while the rest of the world remains in darkness. This is a very inefficient way of communication.

Were you suggesting that the HS be sent to everyone instead of just to one Messenger at a time?
What would that accomplish? Is everyone in the world going to take dictation and write the same 15,000 Tablets that Baha'u'llah wrote?