Quran has the best guidance about war and peace.

[KWED]

Again we come back to sources of information. Neither you nor I were there. My source is Baha’u’llah. Once I ascertained Who Baha’u’llah was, then it was very easy to distinguish truth from falsehood because God is Witness to whatever transpired at the time of Muhammad.

That’s the truth for me. Only you can determine what’s true for you and the same with myself. At first I was an atheist but then I found out about Baha’u’llah and changed my views when I found out that He was the Promised One awaited by all religions.

Once I found out it was true I embraced it immediately because it was just too obvious. But that’s just me. Everyone has their own journey in life.

So you believe everything Bahaullah said because Bahaullah said that you can believe everything he says. And you know you can trust him because he was a messenger of god. And you know he was a messenger of god because he said he was. And you can believe everything he said because... etc.

I have a lovely bridge you may be interested in buying.

 

[KWED]

You cannot assume I have not conducted a just and fair investigation

Yes I can, because you are dismissing that body of existing contemporary and adjacent scripture (what constitutes "evidence" here ) simply because it does not correspond to what Bahullah said.

You are judging my views on your conclusions.

I am judging your views on what the evidence suggests.

.As I stated before, you are free to come to your own conclusions as I have and if you see it differently then that’s your right. If you do not believe I have done a proper investigation well then that’s just your opinion. Of course I reject that and am satisfied with my conclusion.

As JP Moynihan said "Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts"

Muhammad conquered over a million square km over a period of 8 years. This can only have been done through aggressive and offensive military action. This is supported by references in early Islamic texts. The claim that he only ever fought in "self-defence" is demonstrably wrong. If you claim that it is true, then whatever "investigation" you have done was fundamentally flawed.
You may as well say that you have "done your own research" and concluded that the South won the Civil War.

 

[Link]

This can only have been done through aggressive and offensive military action

Why could it not be done to people who were hostile towards Muslims and be defensive. What's your reasoning that it can be done only through offensive military action?

 

[loverofhumanity]

So you believe everything Bahaullah said because Bahaullah said that you can believe everything he says. And you know you can trust him because he was a messenger of god. And you know he was a messenger of god because he said he was. And you can believe everything he said because... etc.

I have a lovely bridge you may be interested in buying.

Lol! I’ll buy it! I’ll order one ready made bridge between Christians and Muslims that will see them as best friends.

In determining whether Baha’u’llah was a true Manifestation of God for myself, first there are His Words and teachings which I believe are very relevant to our age. No teaching but the acceptance of all human beings as equals can possibly bring peace to the world. That means legally each person’s rights and freedoms regardless of race, religion, nationality or background is protected by an internationally enforceable world constitution. These are the basic teachings of Baha’u’llah to bring justice to our world and rid it of wars, genocide and oppression. There’s much more to it than this but the basic foundation is justice with things like a world tribunal, world parliament and an intervention force to stop genocide and war crimes. Baha’u’llah’s teachings are not only relevant and much needed for todays but there’s no other option to bring about peace than by all the nations uniting.

The foundation He teaches is the belief in the oneness and equality of every human being, that humanity is one family and one race. That national boundaries are imaginary and not real. That we are all citizens of one planet.

Lastly are the prophecies in all religions regarding a Promised One. In Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Christian, Zoroastrian and Muslim traditions there are references to such a Figure Who we believe is Baha’u’llah.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes I can, because you are dismissing that body of existing contemporary and adjacent scripture (what constitutes "evidence" here ) simply because it does not correspond to what Bahullah said.

I am judging your views on what the evidence suggests.

As JP Moynihan said "Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts"

Muhammad conquered over a million square km over a period of 8 years. This can only have been done through aggressive and offensive military action. This is supported by references in early Islamic texts. The claim that he only ever fought in "self-defence" is demonstrably wrong. If you claim that it is true, then whatever "investigation" you have done was fundamentally flawed.
You may as well say that you have "done your own research" and concluded that the South won the Civil War.

All I’m saying is that your source is wrong. As you were not there you are relying on on sources that weren’t there either so you cannot present any argument as evidence.

The only true evidence is the Quran itself. And it’s interpretation is only known exactly by God and His Messengers not you nor I nor scholars or historians. I maintain that only God is unbiased and has the true facts and that now we know Baha’u’llah is the Promised One, we have the true facts.

IF Baha’u’llah IS a Prophet sent by God then His Words are pure truth. That’s the real issue here because all my arguments are based on God revealing the truth to His Manifestations. So if you wish to prove my arguments wrong you must first prove Baha’u’llah is not true as I am claiming that His knowledge trumps everyone elses.

Unless as a human being you’re claiming you are infallible and can’t be wrong then you could be very wrong. But I’m claiming my source of information is not human but Divine and as such is infallible true knowledge based on the belief Baha’u’llah is a Manifestation of God.

If you don’t want to consider Baha’u’llah could be a Manifestation then there’s no point in continuing this debate because I’ve found it to be true beyond doubt so all we can do is each go our own way.


1. How Bahá'ís View Islam

"Blessing and peace be upon Him [Muhammad] through Whose advent Bathá [Mecca] is wreathed in smiles, and the sweet savours of Whose raiment have shed fragrance upon all mankind-- He Who came to protect men from that which would harm them in the world below. Exalted, immensely exalted is His station above the glorification of all beings and sanctified from the praise of the entire creation. Through His advent the tabernacle of stability and order was raised throughout the world and the ensign of knowledge hoisted among the nations. May blessings rest also upon His kindred and His companions through whom the standard of the unity of God and of His singleness was uplifted and the banners of celestial triumph were unfurled. Through them the religion of God was firmly established among His creatures and His Name magnified amidst His servants."
- Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 162

 

[stevecanuck]

The only true evidence is the Quran itself.

Okay, as you read what's coming - REMEMBER YOU SAID THIS.

And it’s interpretation is only known exactly by God and His Messengers not you nor I nor scholars or historians.

If, as you say, the Qur'an is "the only true evidence", the following verses from the Qur'an clearly show that Allah disagrees with you. He says that it's message can be understood by all:

2:118 - We have made clear the signs unto people who are sure.
2:266 - Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His) Signs.
3:138 - This (the Quran) is a plain statement for mankind.
6:65 - See how We display the revelations so that they may understand.
6:157 - So now has come unto you a clear proof (the Quran) from your Lord.
7:58 - Thus do We explain variously the Ayat.
10:5 - (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail.
10:24 - Thus do We explain the Ayat in detail for the people who reflect.
13:2 - He regulates all affairs, explaining the Ayat in detail, that you may believe with certainty.
17:12 - All things have We explained in detail.
19:97 - We have given you the Book (the Quran) in your own language so that you could easily give the glad news to the pious ones and warn the quarrelsome ones.
27:93 - Praise be to Allah, Who will soon show you His Signs, so that ye shall know them.
44:58 - So have We made it easy in your tongue that they may be mindful.
54:17 - We have made the Quran easy to understand.
54:22 - We have made the Quran easy to understand.
54:32 - We have made the Quran easy to understand.
54:40 - We have made the Quran easy to understand.
57:17 - We have made clear Our revelations for you.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Okay, as you read what's coming - REMEMBER YOU SAID THIS.



If, as you say, the Qur'an is "the only true evidence", the following verses from the Qur'an clearly show that Allah disagrees with you. He says that it's message can be understood by all:

2:118 - We have made clear the signs unto people who are sure.
2:266 - Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His) Signs.
3:138 - This (the Quran) is a plain statement for mankind.
6:65 - See how We display the revelations so that they may understand.
6:157 - So now has come unto you a clear proof (the Quran) from your Lord.
7:58 - Thus do We explain variously the Ayat.
10:5 - (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail.
10:24 - Thus do We explain the Ayat in detail for the people who reflect.
13:2 - He regulates all affairs, explaining the Ayat in detail, that you may believe with certainty.
17:12 - All things have We explained in detail.
19:97 - We have given you the Book (the Quran) in your own language so that you could easily give the glad news to the pious ones and warn the quarrelsome ones.
27:93 - Praise be to Allah, Who will soon show you His Signs, so that ye shall know them.
44:58 - So have We made it easy in your tongue that they may be mindful.
54:17 - We have made the Quran easy to understand.
54:22 - We have made the Quran easy to understand.
54:32 - We have made the Quran easy to understand.
54:40 - We have made the Quran easy to understand.
57:17 - We have made clear Our revelations for you.

Im disappointed that you misrepresented the Quran by not including what the Quran actually states. There are both easy to understand verses and allegorical ones but you have chosen to only present the clear verses. May I refer you to Sura 75 The Resurrection and ask you if you consider that to be clear because the Quran states it is unclear.

Here some quotes by the Quran about unclear verses. Unless you yourself are Allah, you cannot fully understand the Quran according to the Quran itself. So the easy to understand verses are only those verses such as laws etc not the symbolic passages such as prophecies regarding the Day of Resurrection.

Sura 3:7

He is the One Who has revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ the Book, of which some verses are precise—they are the foundation of the Book—while others are elusive.1 Those with deviant hearts follow the elusive verses seeking ˹to spread˺ doubt through their ˹false˺interpretations—but none grasps their ˹full˺ meaning except Allah. As for those well-grounded in knowledge, they say, “We believe in this ˹Quran˺—it is all from our Lord.” But none will be mindful ˹of this˺ except people of reason.

Sura 7:50-51

And now have we brought unto those of Mecca a book of divine revelations: we have explained it with knowledge; a direction and mercy unto people who shall believe. Do they wait for any other than the interpretation thereof? On the day whereon the interpretation thereof shall come, they who had forgotten the same before shall say, Now are we convinced by demonstration that the messengers of our LORD came unto us with truth:

Sura 75: 13-19 The Day of Resurrection


10. On that Day, man will say, "Where is the escape?" 11. No indeed! There is no refuge. 12. To your Lord on that Day is the settlement. 13. On that Day man will be informed of everything he put forward, and everything he left behind. 14. And man will be evidence against himself. 15. Even as he presents his excuses. 16. Do not wag your tongue with it, to hurry on with it. 17. Upon Us is its collection and its recitation. 18. Then, when We have recited it, follow its recitation. 19. Then upon Us is its explanation.

 

[stevecanuck]

Im disappointed that you misrepresented the Quran by not including what the Quran actually states. There are both easy to understand verses and allegorical ones but you have chosen to only present the clear verses.

We'll get to the rest of your post, but not until you walk this back. I'm not letting you say that I didn't include, "what the Qur'an actually states". I gave you direct quotes and the verses numbers so you could check them for accuracy. Are you going to acknowledge that fact or not?

 

[dybmh]

The foundation He teaches is the belief in the oneness and equality of every human being,

except for the Jews

 

[Revoltingest]

Thanks but no, im not really interested, the Qur'an as other holy books can be interpreted in many different ways. Although your interpretation may be nobel, Islamic state believed their interpretation was correct. Those who fly plains into the twin towers believed their interpretation was correct.

Rather than your or my trying to understand the Koran
after it's interpretation & translation from long ago Arabic,
I prefer to look at how Muslims themselves view war &
peace. From this perspective, it appears to have a great
deal of intolerance & unwarranted violence.

 

[stevecanuck]

except for the Jews

And every other variety of 'infidel'.

This so-called religion of equality does not allow non-Muslims into Mecca because we're all 'dirty'.

 

[loverofhumanity]

We'll get to the rest of your post, but not until you walk this back. I'm not letting you say that I didn't include, "what the Qur'an actually states". I gave you direct quotes and the verses numbers so you could check them for accuracy. Are you going to acknowledge that fact or not?

You only quoted verses concerning the clear verses in the Quran but omitted that the Quran states that there are verses which are not clear and will be explained on the Day of Resurrection. I referred you to the Quran verse which states there are both clear and allegorical verses so I presented the full truth not half the truth.

 

[loverofhumanity]

except for the Jews

What do you mean?

 

[dybmh]

What do you mean?

Baha'u'llah wrote "Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings". And as I've been told, this is not the only time he has condemned the Jewish nation as a whole. Because of this, Baha'u'llah cannot be teaching the "belief in the oneness and equality of every human being" ( which is what you said ). At best he is teaching about the equality of every human being except the Jews who are wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Baha'u'llah wrote "Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings". And as I've been told, this is not the only time he has condemned the Jewish nation as a whole. Because of this, Baha'u'llah cannot be teaching the "belief in the oneness and equality of every human being" ( which is what you said ). At best he is teaching about the equality of every human being except the Jews who are wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings.

Ok. That is with regards to rejection of Christ not a racist comment or remark. He also condemns kings and rulers and religious leaders for rejecting Prophet Muhammad, the Bab and His Manifestation, so He is not singling out any one people but all those who have rejected God’s Messengers.

Baha’is believe in Moses and the Torah. Baha’u’llah was only speaking about rejection of Christ.

 

[dybmh]

Ok. That is with regards to rejection of Christ not a racist comment or remark. He also condemns kings and rulers and religious leaders for rejecting Prophet Muhammad, the Bab and His Manifestation, so He is not singling out any one people but all those who have rejected God’s Messengers.

Baha’is believe in Moses and the Torah. Baha’u’llah was only speaking about rejection of Christ.

I understand that. But it doesn't excuse what he wrote. Someone who writes that about the entire nation doesn't consider them to be "equal" as you stated.

The foundation He teaches is the belief in the oneness and equality of every human being

... except for those who deny the messangers? are they all wrapped in satanic fancy? or is it just the Jews?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I understand that. But it doesn't excuse what he wrote. Someone who writes that about the entire nation doesn't consider them to be "equal" as you stated.

... except for those who deny the messangers? are they all wrapped in satanic fancy? or is it just the Jews?

Even Moses got angry with His followers when He came down from the mountain finding them worshipping the golden calf. So much so He smashed the Tablets. Sometimes a Father’s rebuke is not out of dislike but out of love. God wants what’s best for all humanity and if Baha’u’llah rebuked someone it was out of love like Moses not hate.

It would be against God’s supreme love for the Jews to allow them to go astray. Moses did more than just rebuke the Jews…..


19 When Moses approached the camp and saw the calfand the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain. 20 And he took the calf the people had made and burned it in the fire; then he ground it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.

27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’”28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

Moses was not a hater of Jews just like Baha’u’llah is not and both chastised them for going astray but out of love like a father to his son.

 

[dybmh]

three thousand of the people died

3000 out of 600,000 were slain for the golden calf. that isn't the same as calling the entire nation wrapped in the densest veil of satanic fancy.

let me ask you, is there any other example of Baha'u'llah rebuking someone and invoking satan? if not then the rebuke of the Jews is unique and this shows that they were not equal to the rest of humanity.

 

[stevecanuck]

You only quoted verses concerning the clear verses in the Quran

Not quite. I quoted 18 verses that state the Qur'an is clear. Not some of it, but ALL of it - as in, "He explains his verses in detail". See the difference? None of those quotes so much as hint at the fact the some verses are unclear.

but omitted that the Quran states that there are verses which are not clear and will be explained on the Day of Resurrection. I referred you to the Quran verse which states there are both clear and allegorical verses so I presented the full truth not half the truth.

As to the 3 examples you gave, only one is useful. Verses 7:50-51 do not say what you quoted. Verses 75:13-19 only state that Allah will have his day of reckoning, and that your actions will be explained to you.

Verse 3:17 is the only one that supports your claim. And all it proves is that your god contradicted himself. Either the Qur'an is clear, or there are parts that aren't. The score on that is 18 - 1.

 

[loverofhumanity]

3000 out of 600,000 were slain for the golden calf. that isn't the same as calling the entire nation wrapped in the densest veil of satanic fancy.

let me ask you, is there any other example of Baha'u'llah rebuking someone and invoking satan? if not then the rebuke of the Jews is unique and this shows that they were not equal to the rest of humanity.

The real question here is does God have the authority to chastise and rebuke His creatures, followers and the world? If you cannot accept that then you cannot possibly believe in God for God’s Hands are not tied by anyone. He does as He pleases as He is God no?

Then the only thing that you really need to determine here is if Baha’u’llah speaks on behalf of God or not. Is He the ‘Lord of Hosts’ promised to the Jews or not? Is He the King of Glory? Baha’u’llah was descended from Abraham through Katurah and through Jesse the father of David so He is a descendant of David.

Here are some quotes from Baha’u’llah about this.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David.”

“LEND an ear unto the song of David. He saith: 'Who will bring me into the Strong City?' The Strong City is Akká, which hath been named the Most Great Prison, and which possesseth a fortress and mighty ramparts... Peruse that which Isaiah hath spoken in His Book. He saith: 'Get thee up into the high mountain, O Zion, that bringest good tidings; lift up thy voice with strength, O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings. Lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah: "Behold your God! Behold the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him."' This Day all the signs have appeared. A great City hath descended from heaven, and Zion trembleth and exulteth with joy at the Revelation of God, for it hath heard the Voice of God on every side.

But as far as rebukes there are many especially to kings and religious leaders. This is just one.


“BECAUSE of you the Apostle (Muhammad) lamented, and the Chaste One (Fátimihs) cried out, and the countries were laid waste, and darkness fell upon all regions. O concourse of divines! Because of you the people were abased, and the banner of Islám was hauled down, and its mighty throne subverted. Every time a man of discernment hath sought to hold fast unto that which would exalt Islám, you raised a clamour, and thereby was He deterred from achieving His purpose, while the land remained fallen in clear ruin.