Quran has the best guidance about war and peace.

[loverofhumanity]

If it is subjective and unverifiable then it is not "truth", it is merely "opinion" or "speculation".

It’s truth to me. I can’t speak for anyone else only myself.

 

[KWED]

Glad that you can see through those who have bigoted agendas. As I stated, I have investigated and come up with my conclusion. You and others are free to disagree and I respect that because we all have the right to freedom of thought and belief. I’m only saying that I have come to the conclusion after many years of reflection and study regarding Islam that..

1. Muhammad was a Prophet of God and perfect in every way morally, mentally and spiritually. And was a Prophet of Peace Who united the warring barbaric tribes and made of them a great nation and established the world’s first Constitution.

2. That the Quran is the Word of God revealed to Muhammad and a Book that teaches Justice, Peace and freedom of religion as well as human rights.

*sigh*
But your "conclusion" bears no resemblance to the information available. The original Islamic texts that you must have referred to in order to come to a conclusion about Muhammad contain records of him doing morally questionable things. That is an undeniable fact.
If you are simply saying that you don't take the morally questionable passages into consideration and accept only those which show him in a favourable light, you are admitting that you are not assessing the issues in an objective, open-minded or rational way. You are simply admitting that you are allowing confirmation bias to determine your conclusions.

The fact that there is zero evidence to support any of the supernatural claims made by or about him is a different matter.

People can only agree with what their own investigation has turned up so I respect that you differ.

Well, either you haven't conducted any proper investigation, or you are ignoring what it turned up.
Either way, it shows the fatal flaw in your position.

 

[KWED]

It was a period of about 23 years so it didn’t happen overnight.

1. Wrong. His military career lasted less than ten years.
You claimed that Muhammad never fought any aggressive actions. It was all purely self defence. The fact that he invaded and conquered over a million square km in about 8 years, winning battles way beyond the borders of Medina, including laying siege to towns, shows that claim to be nonsense.

Are you referring to Baha’u’llah or Muhammad.?

Bahaullah.

[/quote]Regardless with Muhammad for me the Quran is proof enough. I suppose it’s a very subjective thing. With regards Baha’u’llah, I found His Book of Certitude enlightened me very much and gave me a new understanding of the world’s scriptures. I believe it was revealed within 2 days and I find that a Book of such deep meanings and explanations to be revealed in that time an indication of innate knowledge as it would take months and even years to put such a Book together impossible in two days without some sort of Divine intervention. But that’s just my opinion.[/QUOTE] You have already shown how you allow confirmation bias to distort your opinion, so your opinion that Bahaullah wrote books by magic can be dismissed, not least because there is no evidence magic even exists.

 

[KWED]

Im not sure which explanations you mean could you clarify?

You wrote the posts. I don't know what you meant. That is why I am asking you to clarify.

 

[KWED]

It’s truth to me. I can’t speak for anyone else only myself.

If it is subjective and unverifiable then it is not "truth", it is merely "opinion" or "speculation".

I could say that "my truth" is that Bahaullah was a dishonest charlatan preying on the gullible.
Now, you may not agree, but it is still "the truth".
It makes the term meaningless. Understand?

 

[Link]

Why would you need a holy book if the information has already implanted in your memory?

We are all Children of God. We are all Equal in God's eyes.

We all have the power to choose what we deem Important. Each can choose to think a person has more value than others, however it is not true reality.

We are all equal including those you label as ugly garbage evil souls. Since you are unable to control them and you value all those petty things mankind holds so dear, you deem them as less.

Don't you see that you are choosing a we against they? Should not it be an US??? Do not value those petty things. SOLVE THE PROBLEM INSTEAD!!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Salam

There are degrees of evil, but this life is created as a pressure cooker and as the chance to prove ourselves to God. God wants us to connect to him through proper means.

The light is channeled to us through the Guide of time whether we realize it or not. Holy books give mental clarity to who the means to remember God properly are and holy books also manifest God's glory and personality.

Its important to submit to God. If you do not submit to God, you are submitting to misguiding leaders or your own ignorance.

The thing is with God reaching out to us, there is a consequence, that if we reject his guidance we would become more worthy of his wrath. But also that if we accept his guidance, he will help us defeat Satan and his forces.

We just have to humble ourselves to God's Leaders and Kings appointed by him. He made them an easy means to redeem souls.

If God did not reach out to us, very little of the very little who followed God's light, would have followed God's light.

 

[Link]

Hell does not exist!! On the other hand, people can choose very hard lessons for themselves. I guess some can define learning the hard lesson as Hell.

With hate with discipline you have at least placed limits on your choice. Still there are sides you have yet to Discover. Not only will you learn from your choices that you direct hate, you will learn from the results of those you are teaching to hate. In time, you will learn the price for hate is always too high.

There are much better ways. I'm surprised you can't come up with some rather than follow those who teach you to hate.

Remember, One is supposed to become much more than the sum of their teachings. We are all meant to Think!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Hell exists in this world if you detect it. Its what makes ugly souls ugly, the filth filth, and creates distance from God and people. Its reality in unseen appears more unseen after death but still hidden. Only in the day of judgment will its full reality come and then for sure, its too late to redeem, and love God if you see it.

Of course, souls are redeemable but in this world not after death, what I differ with you on that, is that I compassionately call them to salvation and redemption through God's guidance, while you see it that they if they die or not on that, we should not judge them.

Judgment is very important, it is the lightning from God's Guide warning us not to sin and to turn back to God.

You ignore that at your own peril.

 

[Link]

Is being an oppressor really an act of Good? What if you were the one being oppressed? Does the view start to look different? Further, What are you teaching those around you by oppressing??

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Oppressed want God to avenge them. Its part of their prayer to God and there is no veil between their prayer and God. While oppressors and those benefiting from their oppression supporting them or just watching it happen in luxury do not really fear that the oppressed want them to pay the price.

God is an avenger of the oppressed. What end does it achieve? At the end, vengeance, wrath, and justice is the end goal of hell. But before that, hell was one of the two drivers to paradise, the other being God's reward and pleasure. It was created as a means with this world to pressure us to be good.

You say what is the point of threats? Well, humanity takes threats and bribes for temporary life. Part of the heaven and hell is to keep God's Authority in place, and make people realize they lose nothing if they sacrifice this world for next for greater good. And that God is the favor to hold on to, and he is the best reward through the exalted means towards him, mainly his chosen ones. This leads to the scenario where sorcerers under command of Pharaoh can rebel against him and when threatened with being cut and killed, say "Decide, you can only decide in this world" and then talk about hell and heaven ends, and that Pharaoh will be in hell, and they in paradise and so "no harm (to us)" is also expressed by them.

He sent Prophets, Messengers, and Leaders, to guide us in the fight against oppression and an easy means to establish justice.

I see Ahlulbayt and the Mahdi as a catalyst towards peace, justice and harmony on earth. But if you take side of their enemies and seek to put out their light and truth, that is hostility towards God, his exalted, and great souls that believe in the guidance and help, that cannot be forgiven. Prophets in the past carried the flag of religion one successor to another, but they and their followers sacrificed their lives and suffered for humanity to be passed on truth and strove for the word of God to be highest. Mohammad (s) is a just a Messenger among Messengers and although Quran is the last revelation, it is but a reminder at the end, the best reminder, but still, it is not something that can magically change all souls in itself. It requires effort, helpers and striving for its true interpretation.

If you see evil as good and good as evil, and do not sake the proper side, that is the person's fault especially if they had a means to the Quran which bestows mental clarity in all that and provides the means to insights if we would reflect.

Imam Ali (a) per Sunni and Shiite sources is said by the Prophet (S) to fight for the interpretation just as the Prophet fought for its revelation. People ignore his words at their own peril.

I do not want enviers of Ali (a) among Muslims who cannot stand the fact Mohammad's (s) leadership and light and position continues but not Nubuwa (revelation in form of scripture) to enter heaven if they die like that. I want to save them now from hell, but if they die hating on Ali (a) and his family (a), then no. I do not care if you call this hate towards most Muslims, I want them to the pay price. Its due to them the world has not been restored to dignity and that Islam appears ugly in its form as presented today.

This life is a chance for us all to carry one another to paradise. Inshallah, there is time, and that most of the world maybe saved yet with Mahdi and Jesus returning, and others, but its not too late.

Most of humanity may enter paradise, and the Prophecy of Surah Yaseen that most followed Iblis is a conditional Prophecy that can still be avoided.

We can push each other to good, but it must be done by compassion. Hate of the evil part of us must also be mixed with compassion.

To do away with God's judgment in the name of love and compassion, is foolish. We cannot just get rid of negative value and evil nature of souls that have become evil purely out of the want for everyone not to suffer in the long run. That's compassion gone extreme.

 

[loverofhumanity]

*sigh*
But your "conclusion" bears no resemblance to the information available. The original Islamic texts that you must have referred to in order to come to a conclusion about Muhammad contain records of him doing morally questionable things. That is an undeniable fact.
If you are simply saying that you don't take the morally questionable passages into consideration and accept only those which show him in a favourable light, you are admitting that you are not assessing the issues in an objective, open-minded or rational way. You are simply admitting that you are allowing confirmation bias to determine your conclusions.

The fact that there is zero evidence to support any of the supernatural claims made by or about him is a different matter.

Well, either you haven't conducted any proper investigation, or you are ignoring what it turned up.
Either way, it shows the fatal flaw in your position.

You cannot assume I have not conducted a just and fair investigation just because you see it differently. You are judging my views on your conclusions. As I stated before, you are free to come to your own conclusions as I have and if you see it differently then that’s your right. If you do not believe I have done a proper investigation well then that’s just your opinion. Of course I reject that and am satisfied with my conclusion.

 

[loverofhumanity]

1. Wrong. His military career lasted less than ten years.
You claimed that Muhammad never fought any aggressive actions. It was all purely self defence. The fact that he invaded and conquered over a million square km in about 8 years, winning battles way beyond the borders of Medina, including laying siege to towns, shows that claim to be nonsense.

Bahaullah.

Regardless with Muhammad for me the Quran is proof enough. I suppose it’s a very subjective thing. With regards Baha’u’llah, I found His Book of Certitude enlightened me very much and gave me a new understanding of the world’s scriptures. I believe it was revealed within 2 days and I find that a Book of such deep meanings and explanations to be revealed in that time an indication of innate knowledge as it would take months and even years to put such a Book together impossible in two days without some sort of Divine intervention. But that’s just my opinion.[/QUOTE] You have already shown how you allow confirmation bias to distort your opinion, so your opinion that Bahaullah wrote books by magic can be dismissed, not least because there is no evidence magic even exists.[/QUOTE]

Again that’s respectfully your opinion. I understand it very differently so we agree to differ. You keep your views if you believe them and I will do the same.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If it is subjective and unverifiable then it is not "truth", it is merely "opinion" or "speculation".

I could say that "my truth" is that Bahaullah was a dishonest charlatan preying on the gullible.
Now, you may not agree, but it is still "the truth".
It makes the term meaningless. Understand?

Again we come back to sources of information. Neither you nor I were there. My source is Baha’u’llah. Once I ascertained Who Baha’u’llah was, then it was very easy to distinguish truth from falsehood because God is Witness to whatever transpired at the time of Muhammad.

That’s the truth for me. Only you can determine what’s true for you and the same with myself. At first I was an atheist but then I found out about Baha’u’llah and changed my views when I found out that He was the Promised One awaited by all religions.

Once I found out it was true I embraced it immediately because it was just too obvious. But that’s just me. Everyone has their own journey in life.

 

[Link]

It’s truth to me. I can’t speak for anyone else only myself.

This is a difference. Bahais have not been able to prove features of their text that is beyond human capability. Muslims have put a lot of work (most of it in Arabic) that explains Quranic features, that can be seen, to be beyond human.

So while you guys leave it to subjective judgment, Muslims have shown objective features of Quran that show it towers in eloquence.
Some of these features you can only appreciate in Arabic, some of them you can appreciate even without knowing Arabic.

Otherwise the dialogue:

It's from God
No its not
To me it is
To me it is isn't, what's your proof?
I see it, the truth is in the pudding
I do not see it, I find it the opposite

(and nothing is gained, it's meaningless chatter)

You have to show some signs and proof, Quran says "bring your proof if you are truthful".

When Quran was revealed, it was revealed slowly, and so Sunnah of Rasool (s) and his message, augmented it and contextualized it. The Sunnah gave Quran light and verses that seemed meaningless had always double meaning with Rasool (s) and his successors (a) and prophecies with the Mahdi (A) were made through them.

The final miracle with Quran is going to bringing the Quran of Ali (a) which has commentary and Sunnah of Rasool (a) and order of the verses all in it. This would be hard to see (remembering order), but with programming now, we can see how Quran was dynamically built with the Sunnah, and so programming and applications version of Quran and Sunnah might be the final written miracle the Mahdi (a) brings a long with physical miracles he will do.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is a difference. Bahais have not been able to prove features of their text that is beyond human capability. Muslims have put a lot of work (most of it in Arabic) that explains Quranic features, that can be seen, to be beyond human.

So while you guys leave it to subjective judgment, Muslims have shown objective features of Quran that show it towers in eloquence.
Some of these features you can only appreciate in Arabic, some of them you can appreciate even without knowing Arabic.

Otherwise the dialogue:

It's from God
No its not
To me it is
To me it is isn't, what's your proof?
I see it, the truth is in the pudding
I do not see it, I find it the opposite

(and nothing is gained, it's meaningless chatter)

You have to show some signs and proof, Quran says "bring your proof if you are truthful".

When Quran was revealed, it was revealed slowly, and so Sunnah of Rasool (s) and his message, augmented it and contextualized it. The Sunnah gave Quran light and verses that seemed meaningless had always double meaning with Rasool (s) and his successors (a) and prophecies with the Mahdi (A) were made through them.

The final miracle with Quran is going to bringing the Quran of Ali (a) which has commentary and Sunnah of Rasool (a) and order of the verses all in it. This would be hard to see (remembering order), but with programming now, we can see how Quran was dynamically built with the Sunnah, and so programming and applications version of Quran and Sunnah might be the final written miracle the Mahdi (a) brings a long with physical miracles he will do.

The Quran itself is the proof.

'And if you are in doubt as to which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call on your helper, besides Allah, if you are truthful.' (Sura 2:23)."

 

[Link]

The Quran itself is the proof.

'And if you are in doubt as to which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call on your helper, besides Allah, if you are truthful.' (Sura 2:23)."

Yes, but to see if this challenge has been met, we need to study features of Quran. Some person can say, well it appears to me like poetry, nothing different. We have to bring proof, quoting this verse is not enough for non-Muslim. It's circular reasoning to assert it based on this verse.

So part of the challenge is that a dialogue occurs about unique features it has and how it towers in those features and cannot be replicated by humans.

Quran is a means to reflect, dialogue, and a catalyst along with the Sunnah and light of Ahlulbayt (a). It has been created in a middle voice not to loud (assertive) but not to soft and weak toned either, and Rasool (s) Sunnah is similar.

Itself has not reformed the world nor do everyone recognize what makes Quran unique especially given most people do not speak Arabic.

We have to show proofs. And Muslims have done that.

They do not leave this dialogue for subjective experience only.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, but to see if this challenge has been met, we need to study features of Quran. Some person can say, well it appears to me like poetry, nothing different. We have to bring proof, quoting this verse is not enough for non-Muslim. It's circular reasoning to assert it based on this verse.

So part of the challenge is that a dialogue occurs about unique features it has and how it towers in those features and cannot be replicated by humans.

Quran is a means to reflect, dialogue, and a catalyst along with the Sunnah and light of Ahlulbayt (a). It has been created in a middle voice not to loud (assertive) but not to soft and weak toned either, and Rasool (s) Sunnah is similar.

Itself has not reformed the world nor do everyone recognize what makes Quran unique especially given most people do not speak Arabic.

We have to show proofs. And Muslims have done that.

They do not leave this dialogue for subjective experience only.

We are all learning especially myself. I am always happy to learn more. So please continue to share your knowledge.

 

[Link]

We are all learning especially myself. I am always happy to learn more. So please continue to share your knowledge.

Thanks for your kind words.

 

[Bird123]

Salam

There are degrees of evil, but this life is created as a pressure cooker and as the chance to prove ourselves to God. God wants us to connect to him through proper means.

The light is channeled to us through the Guide of time whether we realize it or not. Holy books give mental clarity to who the means to remember God properly are and holy books also manifest God's glory and personality.

Its important to submit to God. If you do not submit to God, you are submitting to misguiding leaders or your own ignorance.

The thing is with God reaching out to us, there is a consequence, that if we reject his guidance we would become more worthy of his wrath. But also that if we accept his guidance, he will help us defeat Satan and his forces.

We just have to humble ourselves to God's Leaders and Kings appointed by him. He made them an easy means to redeem souls.

If God did not reach out to us, very little of the very little who followed God's light, would have followed God's light.

There is some goodness in all holy books. On the other hand, holy books are creations of mankind. Goodness is not all that holy books are teaching.

How little you really understand God at all. Mankind's holy book has corrupted your thinking.

It has never ever been about Ruling, Controlling, Submitting,Wrath, Anger, Believing, Faith, Good, Evil, We against they and all those petty things mankind holds so dear. Why is it that you want God to value mankind's petty ways. Why do you think these petty things will bring the best result?

God is not concerned with all those petty things you value so much. God is going to make sure all the kiddies will make it home, in time. After all, God can create universes. How much trouble do you think the kiddies really are?

It is you who has decided God has a problem in need of your help. This is not God.


Do you really want to prove yourself to God? God's greatest moment is when that light bulb goes off over one of His children's head and they Understand. It's about Learning, Growing, Acquiring Wisdom and being able to Stand on one's two feet. How can you think it could ever be about memorizing, copying, following, believing, being dependent and unable to think on one's own? Which do you want for your child??

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Hell exists in this world if you detect it. Its what makes ugly souls ugly, the filth filth, and creates distance from God and people. Its reality in unseen appears more unseen after death but still hidden. Only in the day of judgment will its full reality come and then for sure, its too late to redeem, and love God if you see it.

Of course, souls are redeemable but in this world not after death, what I differ with you on that, is that I compassionately call them to salvation and redemption through God's guidance, while you see it that they if they die or not on that, we should not judge them.

Judgment is very important, it is the lightning from God's Guide warning us not to sin and to turn back to God.

You ignore that at your own peril.

Hell does not exist. It is a Choice, A Belief that you want to be true. It's the excuse you use to value those petty things mankind holds so dear.

You have place limits on things. These limits only exist because you insist they do. They are in your mind not in reality.

Yes, you value those petty things. Could you ever live without Judging, Condemning, Punishing, Pay Back and Hate with Wrath?? Why not??

When you die, you will see God. You will Understand what I speak of. You will see where you are and where you need to be. At this point there is no need for God to Judge. You will Judge yourself. I can see you are like most. You are going to be a much harder Judge that God could ever be.

Yes, you point and blame, finding the fault in others while trying your best to control and rule. You actually think this is helping.

You do not Understand.
It doesn't matter what everyone else chooses to do. It's what you choose to do that counts. Watch your choices. See the results. Do not assume because it is written in a holy book that you are helping instead of hurting. Decide if your actions are really how you want to define yourself.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Oppressed want God to avenge them. Its part of their prayer to God and there is no veil between their prayer and God. While oppressors and those benefiting from their oppression supporting them or just watching it happen in luxury do not really fear that the oppressed want them to pay the price.

God is an avenger of the oppressed. What end does it achieve? At the end, vengeance, wrath, and justice is the end goal of hell. But before that, hell was one of the two drivers to paradise, the other being God's reward and pleasure. It was created as a means with this world to pressure us to be good.

You say what is the point of threats? Well, humanity takes threats and bribes for temporary life. Part of the heaven and hell is to keep God's Authority in place, and make people realize they lose nothing if they sacrifice this world for next for greater good. And that God is the favor to hold on to, and he is the best reward through the exalted means towards him, mainly his chosen ones. This leads to the scenario where sorcerers under command of Pharaoh can rebel against him and when threatened with being cut and killed, say "Decide, you can only decide in this world" and then talk about hell and heaven ends, and that Pharaoh will be in hell, and they in paradise and so "no harm (to us)" is also expressed by them.

He sent Prophets, Messengers, and Leaders, to guide us in the fight against oppression and an easy means to establish justice.

I see Ahlulbayt and the Mahdi as a catalyst towards peace, justice and harmony on earth. But if you take side of their enemies and seek to put out their light and truth, that is hostility towards God, his exalted, and great souls that believe in the guidance and help, that cannot be forgiven. Prophets in the past carried the flag of religion one successor to another, but they and their followers sacrificed their lives and suffered for humanity to be passed on truth and strove for the word of God to be highest. Mohammad (s) is a just a Messenger among Messengers and although Quran is the last revelation, it is but a reminder at the end, the best reminder, but still, it is not something that can magically change all souls in itself. It requires effort, helpers and striving for its true interpretation.

If you see evil as good and good as evil, and do not sake the proper side, that is the person's fault especially if they had a means to the Quran which bestows mental clarity in all that and provides the means to insights if we would reflect.

Imam Ali (a) per Sunni and Shiite sources is said by the Prophet (S) to fight for the interpretation just as the Prophet fought for its revelation. People ignore his words at their own peril.

I do not want enviers of Ali (a) among Muslims who cannot stand the fact Mohammad's (s) leadership and light and position continues but not Nubuwa (revelation in form of scripture) to enter heaven if they die like that. I want to save them now from hell, but if they die hating on Ali (a) and his family (a), then no. I do not care if you call this hate towards most Muslims, I want them to the pay price. Its due to them the world has not been restored to dignity and that Islam appears ugly in its form as presented today.

This life is a chance for us all to carry one another to paradise. Inshallah, there is time, and that most of the world maybe saved yet with Mahdi and Jesus returning, and others, but its not too late.

Most of humanity may enter paradise, and the Prophecy of Surah Yaseen that most followed Iblis is a conditional Prophecy that can still be avoided.

We can push each other to good, but it must be done by compassion. Hate of the evil part of us must also be mixed with compassion.

To do away with God's judgment in the name of love and compassion, is foolish. We cannot just get rid of negative value and evil nature of souls that have become evil purely out of the want for everyone not to suffer in the long run. That's compassion gone extreme.

Is pay back so important to you that you want God to hurt others who have hurt you??

You hurt. They hurt back. You hate. They hate back. Is your only answer to fry those who hurt you in Hell? Does this really solve the real problem???? WIDEN YOUR VIEW!!! Seek better solutions!! There is where you will find God.

Keeping God's Authority in place??? You are living in mankind's view and stories. You have no clue!! God's IQ is off the charts. God works, thinks and acts on multiple levels with multiple views. All these people you worry so much about are mere ANTS!!!!

Remember THINK INTELLIGENCE AND HIGHER LEVEL!!

Did you know that when one reaches a High enough level of Intelligence that there is no need of rules or authority

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

@Bird123 you are repeating same points and so am I. This is where I like to stop then.