Quran has the best guidance about war and peace.

[loverofhumanity]

Not quite. I quoted 18 verses that state the Qur'an is clear. Not some of it, but ALL of it - as in, "He explains his verses in detail". See the difference? None of those quotes so much as hint at the fact the some verses are unclear.



As to the 3 examples you gave, only one is useful. Verses 7:50-51 do not say what you quoted. Verses 75:13-19 only state that Allah will have his day of reckoning, and that your actions will be explained to you.

Verse 3:17 is the only one that supports your claim. And all it proves is that your god contradicted himself. Either the Qur'an is clear, or there are parts that aren't. The score on that is 18 - 1.

The Quran is in Arabic so translations vary which can interfere with the meaning. So often one has to refer to various translations to obtain the true gist of what the Arabic has stated. Many translators don’t include the complete meanings as there are often many so they just shorten it.

But if you look at this translation you can see that it’s going into more depth and is clearer.
There are clear verses such as mentioned below, commandments, duties, punishments and legal laws, these are all clear. But there are hidden meanings such as the chapters about the Day of Resurrection and things like mountains being folded up, too numerous to mention (if you did read the entire Quran you will know what I’m talking about) There are more cryptic verses than clear verses overall from reading the Quran.

3:7

It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad) the Book (this Qur'an). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments, etc.), Al-Fara'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabari).

 

[stevecanuck]

The Quran is in Arabic so translations vary which can interfere with the meaning. So often one has to refer to various translations to obtain the true gist of what the Arabic has stated. Many translators don’t include the complete meanings as there are often many so they just shorten it.

In the end it's possible to understand every verse if you put enough effort into it. I have found the best source to be the word-for-word translation in corpus.quran.com

But if you look at this translation you can see that it’s going into more depth and is clearer.
There are clear verses such as mentioned below, commandments, duties, punishments and legal laws, these are all clear. But there are hidden meanings such as the chapters about the Day of Resurrection and things like mountains being folded up, too numerous to mention (if you did read the entire Quran you will know what I’m talking about) There are more cryptic verses than clear verses overall from reading the Quran.

It makes exactly zero sense that Allah would send "clear signs" to mankind that contain cryptic messages. The only thing you're proving is that the Qur'an was written by a mere mortal who had trouble keeping his story straight.

 

[dybmh]

.

The real question here is does God have the authority to chastise and rebuke His creatures, followers and the world? If you cannot accept that then you cannot possibly believe in God for God’s Hands are not tied by anyone. He does as He pleases as He is God no?

I agree that God has authority to rebuke, but that doesn't effect whether or not Baha'u'llah teaches equality of all human beings. If the rebuke against the Jews is much much worse than the others, it shows the attitude towards the Jews is not equal to the others.

Please note the superlative "the densest veil", the entire nation is included, there's no time limit. These make the rebuke unique showing an unequal opinion of Jews.

Maybe the rebuke would be appropriate if it was directed to the Jews who rejected Christ during his time. But to accuse even modern Jews doesn't make sense. In this modern world, there are other good reasons to reject Christ other than "satanic false imagining"

Then the only thing that you really need to determine here is if Baha’u’llah speaks on behalf of God or not. Is He the ‘Lord of Hosts’ promised to the Jews or not? Is He the King of Glory? Baha’u’llah was descended from Abraham through Katurah and through Jesse the father of David so He is a descendant of David.

Well, the Lord of Hosts commands the legions of heavenly forces. I have no reason to believe Baha'u'llah is holding that position. He's dead, isn't he?

Regarding the King of Glory, maybe he is your King, but not mine. There needs to be a Sanhedrin for that.

 

[RAYYAN]

They still interpreted the Qur'an in a way that made their heinous actions valid.

Just like those who massacred the journalists at Charlie Hebdo. In a country that is not Muslim so is not bound by muslim mores and prides itself of freedom of speech.

What are the verses they interpreted to do all these horrible acts?
Sure, verses can be interpreted in different ways, but usually, we find the answer in the Quran itself

Also, it is a fact that most who join ISIS are people who don't have strong Islamic foundation

So, let's see what verses ISIS interpreted to do those acts

 

[loverofhumanity]

In the end it's possible to understand every verse if you put enough effort into it. I have found the best source to be the word-for-word translation in corpus.quran.com



It makes exactly zero sense that Allah would send "clear signs" to mankind that contain cryptic messages. The only thing you're proving is that the Qur'an was written by a mere mortal who had trouble keeping his story straight.

The Quran is a Book for both current and future generations. The clear signs were for how people should live to fulfil their lives. As to the future it is a guide to events that will come to pass in the future much like the Bible’s Book of Revelation. The Bible too is similarly woven with clear verses to guide our lives but prophecies for events of the future which we will come to unravel then.

Baha’u’llah is saying that with His appearing these unclear or symbolical scriptures are now unveiled as they were all prophesying His Manifestation.

 

[loverofhumanity]

.

I agree that God has authority to rebuke, but that doesn't effect whether or not Baha'u'llah teaches equality of all human beings. If the rebuke against the Jews is much much worse than the others, it shows the attitude towards the Jews is not equal to the others.

Please note the superlative "the densest veil", the entire nation is included, there's no time limit. These make the rebuke unique showing an unequal opinion of Jews.

Maybe the rebuke would be appropriate if it was directed to the Jews who rejected Christ during his time. But to accuse even modern Jews doesn't make sense. In this modern world, there are other good reasons to reject Christ other than "satanic false imagining"

Well, the Lord of Hosts commands the legions of heavenly forces. I have no reason to believe Baha'u'llah is holding that position. He's dead, isn't he?

Regarding the King of Glory, maybe he is your King, but not mine. There needs to be a Sanhedrin for that.

Regardless, He is referring to a rejection of a Messiah sent by God which would represent the densest of veils if it is true. But as to terms such as Lord of Hosts and heavenly armies we are speaking about spiritual matters here so a Great Being does not necessarily refer to an army general but can also refer to a Being such as Moses Who was a Great Being or Spiritual King.

Baha’u’llah’s rebuke is similar to that of many sent to Kings and Rulers but God has that right. It has nothing to do with equality as all Baha’is have the greatest respect for Jews. Our world Centre is in Haifa and our relationship with Israel is very strong. Iranian Baha’is are even persecuted by the Mullas because they claim we are spies for Israel.

It also should be noted that no Jew has been killed as a result of those Words unlike the 3,000 that God commanded Moses to order.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Maybe the rebuke would be appropriate if it was directed to the Jews who rejected Christ during his time. But to accuse even modern Jews doesn't make sense. In this modern world, there are other good reasons to reject Christ other than "satanic false imagining"

A key of understanding here is that Baha'u'llah has now offered that If we reject any one of the Messengers or Prophets given of G_d, then we are also then rejecting all the Messengers.

So no faith, nor a Jew is exempt from this. To reject Muhammad, is to reject all the Prophets of the Bible, every one of them including Abraham and Moses, as they one and all, have brought the Message from our One G_d, they are also One with G_d.

So the Jew has been around since the foundations of Faith in this world, the time is promised when they will return to the Holy Land and will embrace the Oneness of G_d.

This video shows a glimpse of the future, where we start realising we are One people on one planet and have been guided since time began, to become one people under One G_d.

We can work together, it does not have to be us against them.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

A key of understanding here is that Baha'u'llah has now offered that If we reject any one of the Messengers or Prophets given of G_d, then we are also then rejecting all the Messengers.

So no faith, nor a Jew is exempt from this. To reject Muhammad, is to reject all the Prophets of the Bible, every one of them including Abraham and Moses, as they one and all, have brought the Message from our One G_d, they are also One with G_d.

So the Jew has been around since the foundations of Faith in this world, the time is promised when they will return to the Holy Land and will embrace the Oneness of G_d.

This video shows a glimpse of the future, where we start realising we are One people on one planet and have been guided since time began, to become one people under One G_d.

We can work together, it does not have to be us against them.

Regards Tony

Hi Tony,

So beautiful this video of Israel and how all are coming together in a spirit of harmony. This is what Baha’u’llah is all about, us all becoming one family. It was emotionally stirring to see such a wonderful gathering.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It makes exactly zero sense that Allah would send "clear signs" to mankind that contain cryptic messages. The only thing you're proving is that the Qur'an was written by a mere mortal who had trouble keeping his story straight.

I see that it means God is teaching us to read with the Spirit and not our material senses.

This is the foundation of our free will choices, the ability to have a conscious knowledge of what is Good and Evil, the ability of choice.

This is why we are born on the edge of darkness and at the beginning of light. We are at the apex of material capacity and on the edge of our Spiritual potential. We have to be born from the human spirit into the Spirit that is the Messegers of God.

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

Baha’u’llah’s rebuke is similar to that of many sent to Kings and Rulers

If you can provide an example I will very much appreciate it. Thank you.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hi Tony,

So beautiful this video of Israel and how all are coming together in a spirit of harmony. This is what Baha’u’llah is all about, us all becoming one family. It was emotionally stirring to see such a wonderful gathering.

Yes it is wonderful and what is also wonderful, is that thousands of these events are happening worldwide every week, yet are not reported, they do not make the news.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you can provide an example I will very much appreciate it. Thank you.

Loverofhumanity I am sure will supply what was requested. It brought to mind a specific passage, so I would like to offer this short mediation.

This is from a book called the Hidden Words and Baha'u'llah offered it was a summary 9f the essence of all past Messages from God.

A lot of these passages are directed to the leaders of faith, those that had in their hands the direction a Faith would head.

Yet they also scroll down to personal reflections.

"O YE THAT ARE FOOLISH, YET HAVE A NAME TO BE WISE! Wherefore do ye wear the guise of shepherds, when inwardly ye have become wolves, intent upon My flock? Ye are even as the star, which riseth ere the dawn, and which, though it seem radiant and luminous, leadeth the wayfarers of My city astray into the paths of perdition." — The Hidden Words, Persian no. 24

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

If you can provide an example I will very much appreciate it. Thank you.

Tablet to Napoleon III

For what thou hast done, thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands, as a punishment for that which thou hast wrought. Then wilt thou know how thou hast plainly erred. Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to help this Cause, and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) in this, the Straight Path. Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My Life! It shall not endure; nay, it shall soon pass away, unless thou holdest fast by this firm Cord. We see abasement hastening after thee, whilst thou art of the heedless. It behoveth thee when thou hearest His Voice calling from the seat of glory to cast away all that thou possessest, and cry out: ‘Here am I, O Lord of all that is in heaven and all that is on earth!’

KAISER WILHELM I

O KING of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High. He, verily, is the Most Gracious, the All-Bountiful. Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves. Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.

O CONCOURSE of Persian divines! In My name ye have seized the reins of men, and occupy the seats of honour by reason of your relation to Me. When I revealed Myself, however, ye turned aside, and committed what hath caused the tears of such as have recognized Me to flow. Erelong will all that ye possess perish, and your glory be turned into the most wretched abasement, and ye shall behold the punishment for what ye have wrought, as decreed by God, the Ordainer, the All-Wise.

 

[dybmh]

Hi Tony, thanks for your input.

A key of understanding here is that Baha'u'llah has now offered that If we reject any one of the Messengers or Prophets given of G_d, then we are also then rejecting all the Messengers.

But that doesn't make it satanic.

So no faith, nor a Jew is exempt from this. To reject Muhammad, is to reject all the Prophets of the Bible, every one of them including Abraham and Moses, as they one and all, have brought the Message from our One G_d, they are also One with G_d

When you say "they are also One with G_d", do you mean infallible? We know that Moses wasn't perfect because he was prohibited from entering the holy land.

So the Jew has been around since the foundations of Faith in this world, the time is promised when they will return to the Holy Land and will embrace the Oneness of G_d.

It would be great to see a quote from Baha'u'llah saying this about the Jewish nation. All we have right now is an accusation of a massive spiritual malady effecting the entire nation forever.

This video shows a glimpse of the future, where we start realising we are One people on one planet and have been guided since time began, to become one people under One G_d.

Becoming one people sounds like assimilation to me. From previous conversations with you, I'm not sure if that's what you intended. For whatever reason, being a Jew with our own traditions, culture, language, laws, etc seems to infuriate people throughout the course of world history. I don't think Jews should have to give that up in order to pacify and unite with the others who hate.

We can work together, it does not have to be us against them.

I agree, but please understand my caution. When I read in your scripture accusing all Jews of something satanic, it doesn't inspire trust or friendship.

 

[dybmh]

Loverofhumanity I am sure will supply what was requested. It brought to mind a specific passage, so I would like to offer this short mediation.

This is from a book called the Hidden Words and Baha'u'llah offered it was a summary 9f the essence of all past Messages from God.

A lot of these passages are directed to the leaders of faith, those that had in their hands the direction a Faith would head.

Yet they also scroll down to personal reflections.

"O YE THAT ARE FOOLISH, YET HAVE A NAME TO BE WISE! Wherefore do ye wear the guise of shepherds, when inwardly ye have become wolves, intent upon My flock? Ye are even as the star, which riseth ere the dawn, and which, though it seem radiant and luminous, leadeth the wayfarers of My city astray into the paths of perdition." — The Hidden Words, Persian no. 24

Regards Tony

I'm sorry I'm not seeing the connection to our current conversation.

 

[dybmh]

Tablet to Napoleon III

For what thou hast done, thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands, as a punishment for that which thou hast wrought. Then wilt thou know how thou hast plainly erred. Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to help this Cause, and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) in this, the Straight Path. Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My Life! It shall not endure; nay, it shall soon pass away, unless thou holdest fast by this firm Cord. We see abasement hastening after thee, whilst thou art of the heedless. It behoveth thee when thou hearest His Voice calling from the seat of glory to cast away all that thou possessest, and cry out: ‘Here am I, O Lord of all that is in heaven and all that is on earth!’

KAISER WILHELM I

O KING of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High. He, verily, is the Most Gracious, the All-Bountiful. Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves. Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.

O CONCOURSE of Persian divines! In My name ye have seized the reins of men, and occupy the seats of honour by reason of your relation to Me. When I revealed Myself, however, ye turned aside, and committed what hath caused the tears of such as have recognized Me to flow. Erelong will all that ye possess perish, and your glory be turned into the most wretched abasement, and ye shall behold the punishment for what ye have wrought, as decreed by God, the Ordainer, the All-Wise.

Thank you for the attempt, but these rebukes are not at all similar to Baha'u'llah wrote about the Jews. The obvious omissions are invoking Satan and the accusation of idolatry.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Thank you for the attempt, but these rebukes are not at all similar to Baha'u'llah wrote about the Jews. The obvious omissions are invoking Satan and the accusation of idolatry.

There are many like this one which refers to Satan too.


“The Evil One hath stirred up mischief in their hearts, and they are afflicted with a torment that none can avert. They hasten to the wicked, bearing the register of the workers of iniquity. Such are their doings.

 

[dybmh]

There are many like this one which refers to Satan too.


“The Evil One hath stirred up mischief in their hearts, and they are afflicted with a torment that none can avert. They hasten to the wicked, bearing the register of the workers of iniquity. Such are their doings.

Thank you, we're getting closer. I found this in context here: Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 40-43

For this one, it's not clear who is being rebuked. I'm not even sure if it's a rebuke at all. For me, a rebuke needs to call out the offender. It needs to name names.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But that doesn't make it satanic.

I agree. That first requires acceptance.

I see the satanic actions are intentional rebellion against the Messenger of God, after one has recognised the Station that they were given of God.

Regards Tony

 

[ChristineM]

What are the verses they interpreted to do all these horrible acts?

Ask them, not me, i only watched muslims fly planes in to buildings and read about beheadings. Apparently done in tje name of Allah.

Also, it is a fact that most who join ISIS are people who don't have strong Islamic foundation

Your reference for this? They were bent on founding an islamic califate at the point of a sword.