What about the plagues, the sabbath, the temple ( and its utensils ), the sacrifices, and the law? Are there parallels to these in the yadava story?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Egyptian exodus proof or slavery?
- Thread starter Riders
- Start date
River Sea
Active Member
Krishna was brought up by his foster
parents Nanda and Yashoda., are foster parents the same as adoption or what does foster parents mean back when?
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
This verse does not seem to be regarding the Jews. The reason for persecution may be the sense of arrogance that Jews have which, in turn, could be rooted in political understanding of the Bible of God giving them a special status of chosen people.
How many Jews have you interacted with in real life? Can you give an example of this arrogance?
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
Plagues. No.
Sabbath. Yes.
Tabernacle. Yes.
Sacrifices. Yes.
Law. No. My take. Laws were made after the yadavas left the Indus.
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
Editor of my book was a jew. My girlfriend in college too.
Can you tell me more about the Sabbath of the yadavas?
Do you think that's enough to categorize the entire nation as arrogant. I also noticed you didn't provide an example.
Riders
Well-Known Member
That is interesting thank you.
Brian2
Veteran Member
That the Jews were chosen and actually that the nation was created by God is just a fact of the scriptures of the Bible. God chose them to be a witness for Him and to His existence and what He is doing in the world. That has been a tough calling for them over the years.
If they are arrogant or not, I don't know, but that is no excuse for anyone to want to persecute and kill them.
Brian2
Veteran Member
I think there would have been quite a few, especially in the days when country borders were less tight and there was more land for peoples to settle in without too many problems.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Some issues I've seen -
I meant there is a 700 year gap between the fall of the Indus Valley (or Indus-Saraswati) civilization and the bronze age collapse, and the sea peoples appeared just before the bronze age collapse. This is the first problem.
The second problem is that the Indus Valley civilization was destroyed by raiders from the north-west, i.e. the direction they would have to travel in to attack Egypt.
The third problem is that the sea peoples came from the north, there's a lot of hypotheses as to their origins, but the list is Anatolia, Greece, Italy, Crete. Why would the Indus Valley people travel to the Northern Mediterranean, just to build boats and attack the Southern Mediterranean? They would just walk. The sea peoples is an illustrative name.
The fourth and final main problem with the hypothesis is the near total absence of weapons in the Indus Valley civilization. These were a peaceful people, the sea peoples were accomplished raiders.
Why does exodus need to be real? Moses is considered a literary creation. Genesis is re-worked Mesopotamian stories as is Job, the commandments and so on.
The early OT was composed around 5-600 BC at the Babylonian exile so Exodus may refer to that?
The supernatural myths in the story suggest it's a fictional tale or national foundation myth.
Have any papers been peer-reviewed on the subject?
joelr
Well-Known Member
What are you talking about "bouncing"????? What are you talking about "deflections????????
You said - "What supernatural events are u speaking of? Jesus or Moses?"
I said there are many supernatural stories in the Bible. How is this "bouncing" or "deflecting"??? We are talking about early Israel so I would be thinking of the early stories.
Like Genesis, the creation story and the flood. But Moses is thought to be a literary creation -
Generally, Moses is seen as a legendary figure, whilst retaining the possibility that Moses or a Moses-like figure existed in the 13th century BCE.[14][15][16][17][18]
Moses - Wikipedia
Thomas Thompsons peer-reviewed work has generally established that Moses and the Patriarchs are mythical
Genesis creation narrative - Wikipedia. The Genesis creation narrative is the creation myth[a] of both Judaism and Christianity.
It expounds themes parallel to those in Mesopotamian mythology, is thought to have been composed in the late 7th or the 6th century BCE. The combined narrative is a critique of the Mesopotamian theology of creation:
The scholar Bruce Waltke cautions against the "woodenly literal" reading of the first two chapters of Genesis which leads to "creation science" and to such "implausible interpretations" as the "gap theory", the presumption of a "young earth", and the denial of evolution.[7] Scholarly writings frequently refer to Genesis as myth, for while the author of Genesis 1–11 "demythologised" his narrative by removing the Babylonian myths those elements which did not fit with his own faith, it remains a myth in the sense of being a story of origins.[8]
Comparative mythology provides historical and cross-cultural perspectives for Jewish mythology. Both sources behind the Genesis creation narrative borrowed themes from Mesopotamian mythology
Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text Elish
The Enuma Elish would later be the inspiration for the Hebrew scribes who created the text now known as the biblical Book of Genesis. Prior to the 19th century CE, the Bible was considered the oldest book in the world and its narratives were thought to be completely original. In the mid-19th century CE, however, European museums, as well as academic and religious institutions, sponsored excavations in Mesopotamia to find physical evidence for historical corroboration of the stories in the Bible. These excavations found quite the opposite, however, in that, once cuneiform was translated, it was understood that a number of biblical narratives were Mesopotamian in origin.
Famous stories such as the Fall of Man and the Great Flood were originally conceived and written down in Sumer, translated and modified later in Babylon, and reworked by the Assyrians before they were used by the Hebrew scribes for the versions which appear in the Bible.
Both Genesis and Enuma Elsih are religious texts which detail and celebrate cultural origins: Genesis describes the origin and founding of the Jewish people under the guidance of the Lord; Enuma Elish recounts the origin and founding of Babylon under the leadership of the god Marduk. Contained in each work is a story of how the cosmos and man were created. Each work begins by describing the watery chaos and primeval darkness that once filled the universe. Then light is created to replace the darkness. Afterward, the heavens are made and in them heavenly bodies are placed. Finally, man is created.
The Epic of Atraḥasis is the fullest Mesopotamian account of the Great Flood, with Atraḥasis in the role of Noah. It was written in the seventeenth century BC
- The supreme god Enlil's decision to extinguish mankind by a Great Flood
- Atraḥasis is warned in a dream
- Enki explains the dream to Atraḥasis (and betrays the plan)
- Construction of the Ark
- Boarding of the Ark
- Departure
- The Great Flood
For well over a century, scholars have recognized that the Bible's story of Noah's Ark is based on older Mesopotamian models.[
The version closest to the biblical story of Noah, as well as its most likely source, is that of Utnapishtim in the Epic of Gilgamesh.[17] A complete text of Utnapishtim's story is a clay tablet dating from the seventh century BCE, but fragments of the story have been found from as far back as the 19th-century BCE.[17] The last known version of the Mesopotamian flood story was written in Greek in the third century BCE by a Babylonian priest named Berossus. From the fragments that survive, it seems little changed from the versions of 2,000 years before.[18]
The parallels between Noah's Ark and the arks of Babylonian flood heroes Atrahasis and Utnapishtim have often been noted. Atrahasis' Ark was circular, resembling an enormous quffa, with one or two decks.[19] Utnapishtim's ark was a cube with six decks of seven compartments, each divided into nine subcompartments (63 subcompartments per deck, 378 total). Noah's Ark was rectangular with three decks. A progression is believed to exist from a circular to a cubic or square to rectangular. The most striking similarity is the near-identical deck areas of the three arks: 14,400 cubits2, 14,400 cubits2, and 15,000 cubits2 for Atrahasis, Utnapishtim, and Noah, only 4% different. Professor Finkel concluded, "the iconic story of the Flood, Noah, and the Ark as we know it today certainly originated in the landscape of ancient Mesopotamia, modern Iraq."[20]
Noah - Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned
Gilamesh - When the seventh day dawned I loosed a dove and let her go. She flew away, but finding no resting- place she returned.
Noah - And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
Gilamesh - When the seventh day dawned the storm from the south subsided, the sea grew calm, the flood was stilled;
Noah - And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;
Gimamesh - , I made a sacrifice and poured out a libation on the mountain top. Seven and again seven cauldrons I set up on their stands, I heaped up wood and cane and cedar and myrtle. When the gods smelled the sweet savour, they gathered like flies over the sacrifice.
Noah - The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Gimamesh - “Wisest of gods, hero Enlil, how could you so senselessly bring down the flood? Lay upon the sinner his sin, Lay upon the transgressor his transgression, Punish him a little when he breaks loose, Do not drive him too hard or he perishes; Would that a lion had ravaged mankind Rather than the flood, Would that a wolf had ravaged mankind Rather than the flood, Would that famine had wasted the world Rather than the flood, Would that pestilence had wasted mankind Rather than the flood
Gilamesh - ‘For six days and six nights the winds blew, torrent and tempest and flood overwhelmed the world, tempest and flood raged together like warring hosts. When the seventh day dawned the storm from the south subsided, the sea grew calm, the flood was stilled;
Noah - And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
Noah - And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.
Gilamesh - Gilgamesh, the son of Ninsun, lies in the tomb.
-Modern geology, its sub-disciplines and other scientific disciplines utilize the scientific method to analyze the geology of the earth. The key tenets of flood geology are refuted by scientific analysis and do not have any standing in the scientific community.[5][6][7][8][9]
joelr
Well-Known Member
You keep going bnack to the same source that carbon dating failed and all scholars have issues with his work. It's been shown by scholars that his methodology is bad.
Rohl does not have an advanced degree in archaeology, but is nevertheless now informing the professional archaeology community that they got it wrong.
He's also selling a book, non-peer-reviewed on his own publishing company? And he's selling lectures about how all the OT books are all true yet doesn't have the degrees, hasn't written peer-reviewed papers and isn't really a scholar in the field. None of that work is actual scholarship. What is it? Crank apologetics aimed at fundamentalists.
He's making money off fundies.
Same way Stanton Friedman made money off Roswell alien crashes in the early 80's.
New Chronology (Rohl) - Wikipedia
None of this work seems legit.
Radiocarbon dating[edit]
In 2010, a series of corroborated radiocarbon dates were published for dynastic Egypt which suggest some minor revisions to the conventional chronology, but do not support Rohl's proposed revisions.[41
You already sent me here several times. This is a joke. It actually says up front - "A Christian Apologetics Ministry Dedicated to Demonstrating the Historical Reliability of the Bible through Archaeological and Biblical Research."
So it's a fundamentalist site that isn't interested in what is actually true. Only things that support what they want to be true and probably mis-information and re-interpretations of finds that go against what scripture says? If fooling yourself is your thing than have a party. Archaeology doesn't "confirm" the Bible? Yes some places are real, some people are real. Many are not, many are far different than written about.
This is about where archaeology is with the OT:
"
PROVING THE BIBLE
Q: Have biblical archeologists traditionally tried to find evidence that events in the Bible really happened?
William Dever: From the beginnings of what we call biblical archeology, perhaps 150 years ago, scholars, mostly western scholars, have attempted to use archeological data to prove the Bible. And for a long time it was thought to work. [William Foxwell] Albright, the great father of our discipline, often spoke of the "archeological revolution." Well, the revolution has come but not in the way that Albright thought. The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that's very disturbing to some people.
But perhaps we were asking the wrong questions. I have always thought that if we resurrected someone from the past, one of the biblical writers, they would be amused, because for them it would have made no difference. I think they would have said, faith is faith is faith—take your proofs and go with them.
The fact is that archeology can never prove any of the theological suppositions of the Bible. Archeologists can often tell you what happened and when and where and how and even why. No archeologists can tell anyone what it means, and most of us don't try.
Q: Yet many people want to know whether the events of the Bible are real, historic events.
Dever: We want to make the Bible history. Many people think it has to be history or nothing. But there is no word for history in the Hebrew Bible. In other words, what did the biblical writers think they were doing? Writing objective history? No. That's a modern discipline. They were telling stories. They wanted you to know what these purported events mean."
Your article is literally lying to you. This much is true -
"The first excavations of the tells around Ain es Sultan (Arabic: عين سلطان, lit. 'Sultan's spring') were made by Charles Warren in 1868 on behalf of the Palestine Exploration Fund. Warren excavated nine mounds in the area of the spring; during one of the excavations his workmen dug through the mud bricks of the wall without realizing what it was.[22]
The spring had been identified in 1838 in Edward Robinson's Biblical Researches in Palestine as "the scene of Elisha's miracle", on the basis of it being the primary spring near to Jericho.[23] On this basis Warren proposed the surrounding mounds as the site of Ancient Jericho, however, Warren did not have the funds to carry out a full excavation. Believing that it was clearly the spring where Elisha healed, he suggested shifting the entire mound for evidence, which he thought could be done for £400.[24]
Ernst Sellin and Carl Watzinger excavated Tell es-Sultan and Tulul Abu el-'Alayiq between 1907–1909 and in 1911, finding the remains of two walls which they initially suggested supported the biblical account of the Battle of Jericho. YAY JERICO!!!
But what they forgot...... "They later revised this conclusion and dated their finds to the Middle Bronze Age (1950-1550 BC).[25]"
and more....
The site was again excavated by John Garstang between 1930 and 1936, who again raised the suggestion that remains of the upper wall was that described in the Bible, and dated to around 1400 BCE.[26]
Extensive investigations using more modern techniques were made by Kathleen Kenyon between 1952 and 1958. Her excavations discovered a tower and wall in trench I. Kenyon provided evidence that both constructions dated much earlier than previous estimates of the site's age, to the Neolithic, and were part of an early proto-city. Her excavations found a series of seventeen early Bronze Age walls, some of which she thought may have been destroyed by earthquakes. The last of the walls was put together in a hurry, indicating that the settlement had been destroyed by nomadic invaders. Another wall was built by a more sophisticated culture in the Middle Bronze Age with a steep plastered escarpment leading up to mud bricks on top.[26][27]
Lorenzo Nigro and Nicolo Marchetti conducted excavations in 1997–2000. Since 2009 the Italian-Palestinian archaeological project of excavation and restoration was resumed by Rome "La Sapienza" University and Palestinian MOTA-DACH under the direction of Lorenzo Nigro and Hamdan Taha.[28]
Tell es-Sultan - Wikipedia
apologetics is just spoon feeding manipulated evidence to people with belief systems that are not interested in looking at real sources or finding actual truth. If it confirms their beliefs it must be true.
I'm not going to that site again. If you want to be caught in a circle of confirmation bias have at it.
a real biblical archaeologist
https://www.youtube.com/user/israelxkv8r/videos
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
I was going to say something I thought would be clever, something about you metaphorically dipping your pen into what comes out the behind of a bull, but that some might have considerated that to be an overreaction.
For that reason I will keep my response simple. -
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
I agree that the Jews have been flag-bearers of One God. My reading of the Bible is that the bequeathal of Canaan can be interpreted to be made to the biological descendants of Abraham or to his moral descendants. Latter seems to make more sense. Why would God want one believer in Him to kill another Canaanite believer in Him? There is a big leap from flag-bearer to inheritor of the land of Canaan. The main point is that there is no justification for the Jews to capture the land of Canaan forcibly. That unacceptable conduct and that underlying ideology appears to me to lie beneath the persecutions they have faced. The question is not of a blame game. The question is of course correction so that such does not happen in future.
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
JLR: I meant there is a 700 year gap between the fall of the Indus Valley (or Indus-Saraswati) civilization and the bronze age collapse, and the sea peoples appeared just before the bronze age collapse. This is the first problem.
BJ: Pl explain. I don’t get what is the problem here. The Bronze Age and Indus Valley—both collapsed c 1500 BCE.
JLR: The second problem is that the Indus Valley civilization was destroyed by raiders from the north-west, i.e. the direction they would have to travel in to attack Egypt.
BJ: This is a long-discredited theory known as “Aryan Invasion Theory.” The more acceptable theory today is “Out of Indus Theory” that posits that Indus collapsed due to climatic or internal political problems. There is no evidence of outside invaders.
JLR: The third problem is that the sea peoples came from the north, there's a lot of hypotheses as to their origins, but the list is Anatolia, Greece, Italy, Crete. Why would the Indus Valley people travel to the Northern Mediterranean, just to build boats and attack the Southern Mediterranean? They would just walk. The sea peoples is an illustrative name.
BJ: The Sea Peoples were seafarers. Indus seafarers are known to travel to Sumer and Egypt. The origins of the Philistines are seen in southern Iraq at after 1500 BCE (I forget the reference right now). I have seen similarities in Indus and Philistine language signs. My sense is 1. Indus collapse at 1500 BCE. 2. Philistines migrated to Iraq. 3. They reestablished themselves as traders in the Mediterrenean. 4. Made their headquarters at Crete. 5. Invaded Israel 1200 BCE.
JLR: The fourth and final main problem with the hypothesis is the near total absence of weapons in the Indus Valley civilization. These were a peaceful people, the sea peoples were accomplished raiders.
BJ: Not at all. They are full of weapons and conflicts. The Hindu text of Rig Veda and epics of Mahabharata and Ramayana all revolve around wars. Please provide any reference for absence of weapons.
JLR: Why does exodus need to be real? Moses is considered a literary creation. BJ: I am responding in your other thread.
JLR: The early OT was composed around 5-600 BC at the Babylonian exile so Exodus may refer to that?
BJ: There is no geographical or narrative parallel between Biblical narrative of Exile and Exodus. I think you may be underrating the gap between the occurrence of an event and its record in the Bible. The genealogies of the Bible tell of long periods before the Exodus. We may disagree but cannot dismiss all of it summarily.
I am attaching two peer-reviewed related papers.
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
It would take 100 pages to respond to your statements on Creation and Flood. Happy to that too, but maybe later. I respond to Gilgamesh here.
Gilgamesh traveled from Sumer to Dilmun on the sea. Dilmun is identified as Indus Valley (~Samuel Noah Kramer). Here he met Utnapishtim who told him about the Flood. I am attaching my post on Gilgamesh for the details please.
I appreciate this conversation. Thanks.
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
I agree that Biblical chronology does not match with Egypt. But it matches with the Indus chrononology. I am giving a brief concordance made by me.
Attachments
Brian2
Veteran Member
What you said sounds a bit ambiguous as to whether you are talking about the descendants of Abraham being given Canaan after the Exodus or if they still have a claim to it today.
The Canaanites of 1400BC did not believe in YHWH and it is debatable that Muslims believe in the same God that the Jews believe in.
But the Bible does speak of God having given the Jews Canaan and the Jews being told by God to drive out the Canaanites from the land and that this is a judgement on the Canaanites by God. The Jews were under His law and with Him as their God and being subject to His rulings. There is also talk in the Bible of God bringing back the Jews to Israel and the Christ saving them in a political way, from destruction then and God being their God forever in Israel and with David (imo the Messiah) being their King forever.
Of course that does not give the Jews the right to treat the Palestinians unjustly and more understanding and brotherly love in that regard from both sides would be great, but words are easy from the outside.