For Chrisitans Only: Matthew 5:38-39

[metis]

There was the religion of Jesus,

The religion of Jesus was Judaism.

 

[pearl]

The religion of Jesus was Judaism.

Do you think He intended the formation of a 'new' religion, or was the intent to renew His own?

 

[Colt]

The religion of Jesus was Judaism.

The Jews who had Jesus put to death for his religion disagree with you.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Because similar to the points that you brought out, how could you even have a functioning society if you don't even enforce the laws of society and have adequate compensation for breaking the law? Therefore, what Jesus said at Matthew 5:38-39 can be a bit confusing in my opinion.

Thank you, Brickjectivity. Also, in a conversation with @Ehav4Ever in post #259 in another thread, he made the point that:



But it's interesting that I came across an article that said:

That said

"the original Jewish Christians were so focused on the idea that their "end game" scenario was going to happen within their generation that they did not focus much on Torah, at a certain point. . ."​

click here: Jesus - The relation of Jesus’ teaching to the Jewish law | Britannica

Because similar to the points that you brought out, how could you even have a functioning society if you don't even enforce the laws of society and have adequate compensation for breaking the law? Therefore, what Jesus said at Matthew 5:38-39 can be a bit confusing in my opinion.

How can you expect to survive at all if you don't oppress and dominate everyone around you? That is true logical wisdom, but does Ehav4Ever agree with that? No. You ask how I can have a functioning society if I don't even enforce the laws of society and don't have adequate compensation for breaking the law. Before I comment upon the Christian NT (new treasure) writers I point out what a (Jewish) prophet does for enemies. A prophet lets them live. A prophet wants to win their minds. A prophet will even risk his or her own life for this most wonderful of accomplishments: winning minds. Even to win the mind of a single individual a prophet will risk all: honor, love, happiness, everything. Who cares about a "Functioning society" without that? Without love all you have is naked truth and justice. All you have then is a cold world unworthy of experience, like an endless desert. Who can survive in it? What person wants to live in it?

Did Moses lead the Israelites to wipe out the Egyptians when he could have? He had miracles and plagues on his side. He could have killed every Egyptian. Instead he worked until the Egyptians themselves believed that they had been too hard on the Israelites. They felt they had been wrong and cruel. Their consciences were opened and renewed. Of all Egyptians only Pharoah's heart was made hard, so that the other Egyptians could experience a softening.

In 2Kings 6, Elijah has handed the hordes of raping ******** from Aram right into the Israelite king's hands. They are tied. They are bound and doomed, but the prophet doesn't want them slain. Instead, they are fed and sent home; but hearts are won. All is for that purpose.

This is where Christians get this idea from:

"Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?" Romans 2:4​

 

[Truth in love]

This thread is for Christians only. What exactly is meant by Matthew 5:38-39?



click here: Matthew 5:38-39 NIV - Eye for Eye - “You have heard that it - Bible Gateway

I don’t see this as a commandment to be a door mat, but we should try to avoid conflicts and seek to make peace and seek forgiveness vs revenge.

 

[vulcanlogician]

I also once asked one friar what is meant by this, likewise as @Estro Felino told, this is not to be interpreted literary,
he told me that Jesus didn't turn the other cheek to high priest when slapped by his servant, instead he fired back with words that insulted the high priest.

So, according to him, the passage says nothing about forbearance?

 

[paradox]

So, according to him, the passage says nothing about forbearance?

I don't know, does it say anything or imply anything about forbearance?

 

[vulcanlogician]

I don't know, does it say anything or imply anything about forbearance?

As far as I can tell, yes.

 

[David Davidovich]

The Jews could go to the courts to seek justice for the loss of their eye or they could forgive and not seek justice. Seeking full justice under the law can be seen as seeking vengeance for what someone has done to you either on purpose or accidentally.

They could forgive and not seek justice? Really? In what sort of universe would that exist?

As others have said, the eye for and eye, tooth for a tooth part of the law was a description of what justice looked like, and it limited what the courts could do and what people could demand that the courts do to the person who has caused them harm. It is a good law and forgiving and not demanding that justice is even better.

It is? Well, actually that sounds more like a Christian fairytale land rather than real life.

But I suppose some people do need to be prosecuted for their actions when those actions are something they will continue to do to other people unless they are brought to justice.

Well, yeah!

 

[David Davidovich]

Perhaps Jesus meant that his disciples were to understand that the forgiveness principle would be a natural consequence of their becoming closer to God, and that their present less spiritually evolved state that innately sees an eye for eye type revenge as just would be transcended.

What Jesus said sounded more like a command than it did a naturally occurring process.

 

[David Davidovich]

Don't wonder any longer--I know the author personally.

I see. Well, I'm curious about something. As one who calls himself a Messianic Jewish Christian, could you explain to me what would be your objections to @Ehav4Ever's POV concerning his interpretation of the Torah and the eye for an eye laws? Along with any other objections?

 

[David Davidovich]

Do you think He intended the formation of a 'new' religion, or was the intent to renew His own?

Interesting question.

 

[David Davidovich]

The Jews who had Jesus put to death for his religion disagree with you.

I'm curious. So, was it just the Jews who had Jesus put to death, or other Jews who just didn't agree with the Hebrew scripture interpretation of Jesus and his disciples?

 

[David Davidovich]

That said

"the original Jewish Christians were so focused on the idea that their "end game" scenario was going to happen within their generation that they did not focus much on Torah, at a certain point. . ."​

How can you expect to survive at all if you don't oppress and dominate everyone around you? That is true logical wisdom, but does Ehav4Ever agree with that? No.

I'm curious. Show me where @Ehav4Ever said that?

You ask how I can have a functioning society if I don't even enforce the laws of society and don't have adequate compensation for breaking the law. Before I comment upon the Christian NT (new treasure) writers I point out what a (Jewish) prophet does for enemies. A prophet lets them live. A prophet wants to win their minds. A prophet will even risk his or her own life for this most wonderful of accomplishments: winning minds. Even to win the mind of a single individual a prophet will risk all: honor, love, happiness, everything. Who cares about a "Functioning society" without that? Without love all you have is naked truth and justice. All you have then is a cold world unworthy of experience, like an endless desert. Who can survive in it? What person wants to live in it?

Did Moses lead the Israelites to wipe out the Egyptians when he could have? He had miracles and plagues on his side. He could have killed every Egyptian. Instead he worked until the Egyptians themselves believed that they had been too hard on the Israelites. They felt they had been wrong and cruel. Their consciences were opened and renewed. Of all Egyptians only Pharoah's heart was made hard, so that the other Egyptians could experience a softening.

In 2Kings 6, Elijah has handed the hordes of raping ******** from Aram right into the Israelite king's hands. They are tied. They are bound and doomed, but the prophet doesn't want them slain. Instead, they are fed and sent home; but hearts are won. All is for that purpose.

This is where Christians get this idea from:

"Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?" Romans 2:4​

Well, none of that answered my question, therefore, I would like to ask you again: How can you have a functioning society if I don't even enforce the laws of society and don't have adequate compensation for breaking the law?

P.S. Also, could you specify which scripture that you were quoting in 2 Kings 6? Because the forum's profanity blocker blocked out some of your quote.

 

[Brian2]

They could forgive and not seek justice? Really? In what sort of universe would that exist?

In the Kingdom of God.

It is? Well, actually that sounds more like a Christian fairytale land rather than real life.

Yes it's the Kingdom of God, where God's will is done.

Well, yeah!

To prosecute or not is a decision, and people can weigh up the pros and cons of that decision.
Just because Jesus says "turn the other cheek" that does not mean that the best way to go is to never take anyone to court.

 

[David Davidovich]

In the Kingdom of God.

So, are you talking about among Christian communities? Or are you talking about the day when the Kingdom of God is established, and the former things have passed away?

Yes it's the Kingdom of God, where God's will is done.

Same questions as above?

 

[Brian2]

So, are you talking about among Christian communities? Or are you talking about the day when the Kingdom of God is established, and the former things have passed away?

Same questions as above?

It will be when the Kingdom of God is established and the former things have passed away and it is how God wants His people to live now also.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

What Jesus said sounded more like a command than it did a naturally occurring process.

Jesus was not ignorant, he knows that a human being can't just change their present state of being to a higher state through mere mental conceptualization, it requires a spiritual transformation that is an inner process.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Thank you, Brickjectivity. Also, in a conversation with @Ehav4Ever in post #259 in another thread, he made the point that:



But it's interesting that I came across an article that said:



click here: Jesus - The relation of Jesus’ teaching to the Jewish law | Britannica

Because similar to the points that you brought out, how could you even have a functioning society if you don't even enforce the laws of society and have adequate compensation for breaking the law? Therefore, what Jesus said at Matthew 5:38-39 can be a bit confusing in my opinion.

I'm curious. Show me where @Ehav4Ever said that?



Well, none of that answered my question, therefore, I would like to ask you again: How can you have a functioning society if I don't even enforce the laws of society and don't have adequate compensation for breaking the law?

P.S. Also, could you specify which scripture that you were quoting in 2 Kings 6? Because the forum's profanity blocker blocked out some of your quote.

I don't remember quoting from that nor quoting Ehav4ever. I use quote marks when I quote. Sorry for any wasted thought that may have caused.

No society fully enforces all laws and remains. It simply does not work in my opinion. For example where I am employed we have a handbook of rules and regulations, but most of these are not followed. They are only used to excuse the higher ups from responsibility. They fain no knowledge of how we actually work, and if the spotlight is ever put upon them they can point to the book and say that we all agreed to follow the rules. That is reality. This is how things function. It has been the same to varying degrees in all jobs that I have had. Partly this is due to corruption and leaders who are incompetent or who are lazy etc., but partly it is because rules cannot create a society or a company or a corporate culture.

The finest ground gears still require lubricant, and so there is always waste. The rules never work without some slippage. Societies are not machines, but they share this in common with machines. They don't run by designs. They have to be cared for constantly. There is and will always be risk for the foreseeable future.

It is analogous to the story of manna. You can collect only enough manna for one or two days, but the manna spoils. It is analogous to the tent of meeting. When the revelation moves, you must take down the tent to follow it. It doesn't stay in your tent. You have to keep traipsing all over, following it about, eating from day to day.

A tree can live for a long time, but then it has to be replaced by a seed. No system can do better than that...so far.

 

[pearl]

Interesting question.

I agree. The Twelve are sent only to Israel. This saying may reflect an original Jewish Christian refusal of the mission to the Gentiles, but for Matthew it expresses rather the limitation that Jesus himself observed during his ministry. Mt10:5-6
He said in reply, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 15:24