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For Chrisitans Only: Matthew 5:38-39

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I asked the same question to my parish priest back when I was a kid. He said that it is not be meant literally. It just means that Christians are supposed to walk away from people who mean to hurt you.
Just that.
 

paradox

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Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
It is not mean to be considered as a single verse an is part of many verses in chapter 5 which say that Jesus disciples are expected to do even more than the law requires on the side of good. They are to overbalance the scales. Eye for an eye is a statue of limitation where one does not seek physical revenge but merely monetary compensation for wrongs, but the disciple of Jesus must do better than to limit themselves to this and must not even seek compensation. Jesus sets up enormous borders around the laws. He is focused upon one law which says "Love the lord with all of your heart" and is saying that in order to do that many extremes are necessary and not merely fairness or restraint from doing wrong. It is an interpretation of how the law must be followed.

If Jesus were criticizing Baden Powell's Scout Law:

Baden Powell's Boy Scout Law:
"A Scout is: Trustworthy, loyal, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent"

Jesus version interpolated from Matthew 5:
"A scout is Trustworthy, loyal, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, reverent, forgiving, forgets wrongs and debts, is generous, loves adversaries, doesn't divorce even the meanest wife, is more pure than Job, doesn't make a move or sacrifice at the altar if another is angry with him/her but camps out until they forgive under the siege of his friendly overtures."​
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
The commandment in Hebrew Scripture was meant to moderate vengeance; the punishment should not exceed the injury done. Jesus forbids even this proportionate retaliation. Of the five examples that follow, only the first deals directly with retaliation for evil; the others speak of liberality.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
At the end of the day, unconditional love will always overcome spitefulness, but to realize unconditional love, one must first overcome our own personal spitefulness. It is not meant to be taken literally.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
This thread is for Christians only. What exactly is meant by Matthew 5:38-39?



click here: Matthew 5:38-39 NIV - Eye for Eye - “You have heard that it - Bible Gateway

The "eye for and eye, tooth for a tooth" law was in the Mosaic Law and shows what justice means in the law and that it should not go past that.
I imagine that the people also used this law as a guide in their dealings with each other.
Jesus took that a step further for His followers and was basically saying not to seek vengeance, even if it is within the bounds of justice. To forgive.
I don't see it as a call for pacifism however, just a call for forgiveness and not seeking revenge.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I also once asked one friar what is meant by this, likewise as @Estro Felino told, this is not to be interpreted literary,
he told me that Jesus didn't turn the other cheek to high priest when slapped by his servant, instead he fired back with words that insulted the high priest.

I don't think Jesus was insulting the high priest with what He said.
I think Jesus would have turned the other cheek if the servant hit Him again. Actually the whole trial and punishment and crucifixion was something that was not just but was from people who just wanted to harm and kill Jesus and He did not call down curses on them. He actually asked God to forgive those who were doing the crucifixion because "they don't know what they are doing".
This is how Jesus wants us to treat those who are doing us harm.

John 18:22When Jesus had said this, one of the officers standing nearby slapped Him in the face and said, “Is this how You answer the high priest?” 23Jesus replied, “If I said something wrong, testify as to what was wrong. But if I spoke correctly, why did you strike Me?”
 
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paradox

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John 18:22When Jesus had said this, one of the officers standing nearby slapped Him in the face and said, “Is this how You answer the high priest?” 23Jesus replied, “If I said something wrong, testify as to what was wrong. But if I spoke correctly, why did you strike Me?”
Matthew 5:38-39 says not to resist evil person and not to return in same manner (an eye for an eye), which is what Jesus obviously did, he acted contrary to his commandment.

"The high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and about his doctrine" with the aim to find Jesus guilty, but Jesus replied in the same manner that would reveal high priest' intent and thus make him guilty instead.
This behavior is contrary to turning the other cheek around, Jesus resisted high priest and was doing an eye for an eye.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Matthew 5:38-39 says not to resist evil person and not to return in same manner (an eye for an eye), which is what Jesus obviously did, he acted contrary to his commandment.

"The high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and about his doctrine" with the aim to find Jesus guilty, but Jesus replied in a same manner that would reveal high priest' intent and thus make him guilty instead.
This behavior is contrary to turning the other cheek around, Jesus resisted high priest and was doing an eye for an eye.

Jesus asked the servant who had hit Him, "Why?"
That is not retaliating against the servant or the High Priest.
What do you say that He did wrong?
 
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paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
Jesus asked the servant who had hit Him, "Why?"
That is not retaliating against the servant or the High Priest.
No, it confirms for the 2nd time that Jesus was resisting high priest, at this point high priest couldn't do anything, so he sent him to Caiaphas.

btw. this isn't about Jesus slapping him back since he was tied, all that Jesus could do is resist with words and do an eye for an eye with words, which is what Jesus did.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No, it confirms for the 2nd time that Jesus was resisting high priest, at this point high priest couldn't do anything, so he sent him to Caiaphas.

btw. this isn't about Jesus slapping him back since he was tied, all that Jesus could do is resist with words and do an eye for an eye with words, which is what Jesus did.

Jesus was in a Jewish court of Law and did not need to say anything. It was up to those who accused Him to prove their charges.
So Jesus asked the High Priest why ask Him, go and ask those to whom He had spoken. (iow bring your witnesses).
The servant hit Him and this must have been someone who had witnessed Him doing something wrong. Jesus asked what He had done. No answer. This witness was acting illegally and was a false witness and Jesus was showing that He knew that it was up to the accusers to bring their witnesses.
I suppose it was not going to be as easy as Annas had expected so he sent Jesus to Caiaphas.
But if you accuse Jesus of taking revenge by asking "Why did you hit me, what did I say that was wrong?" we have to agree to disagree.
Jesus was bound and the truth is that they could do to Him as they wanted and opening His mouth the way He did was really just an invitation for more slaps, like the first one. But they wanted to have at least a pretence of justice and Jesus knew what was going to follow with His crucifixion.
 
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paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
Jesus was in a Jewish court of Law and did not need to say anything. It was up to those who accused Him to prove their charges.
So Jesus asked the High Priest why ask Him, go and ask those to whom He had spoken. (iow bring your witnesses).
It's not so simple, allow me explain in detail...

People did not complain about Jesus, they saw him as prophet predicted by Moses.
It was Jewish priesthood that complained about Jesus because they saw him as challenging their authority.
Jewish priests could not simply go against Jesus because people were on his side,
doing so would be counter productive because they would turn people against them self.

Therefore what priests did was trying to catch Jesus in words which go against Jewish teachings and tradition, such as Jesus directly telling he's son of God,
this would give them a case to turn people against Jesus for blasphemy.

How could they do this?
According to Jewish law there need to be at least 2 witnesses to prove anyone wrong - see Deuteronomy 19:15
This means priests don't need to prove Jesus wrong before people, it's enough to have few witnesses and people no longer matter.
Priests therefore take Jesus to high priest Anna who is surrounded by witnesses.

Interrogation before the high priest with witnesses starts:
The high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and about his doctrine.

It is important to note here that Anna doesn't care for fair interrogation, all that he cares about is word play to make Jesus telling what ever that goes against tradition and the law before Anna's witnesses.
This way Anna would have witnesses and he could judge him according to the law.
Jesus knows pretty well that Anna is plotting against him in such a manner (trying to catch him in words), and this is where Jesus returns the plot in same manner to Anna before witnesses (an eye for an eye) by trying to catch Anna in words by telling Anna to go ask people.

Because people are on his side this would prove Anna wrong before people as well as before Anna's witnesses and Anna's plot against Jesus would actually be Jesus' plot against Anna.
Anna's servant spotted this and slapped Jesus for ex. "how do you dare to plot against Anna?" under umbrella of "Is this the way you answer the high priest?"
In other words we are here to ask questions not you, you're supposed to give an answer not to question high priest' integrity.

Do you see now?
Anna was plotting against Jesus and Jesus attempted to plot against Anna in same manner, this is why Jesus didn't turn the other cheek around but did an eye for an eye.
This is not about fair judgement and who is right but about catching each other in words.

Jesus tried to catch Anna in words (in same manner, an eye for an eye) but he was supposed to only answer to the questions instead.
If Jesus simply answered to the question this would be completely different story.

But if you accuse Jesus of taking revenge by asking "Why did you hit me, what did I say that was wrong?" we have to agree to disagree.
Therefore no, revenge lies in that Jesus was questioning Anna in same insidious manner as Anna while he was only supposed to answer to the question.

"Why did you hit me, what did I say that was wrong?" after servant slapped him only confirms that Jesus insists rather than to answer to the question.
If Jesus answered to the question they would for certain catch Jesus in words because he would be forced to deny he is son of God, which he would not do and would therefore be judged by high priest.
 
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David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
I asked the same question to my parish priest back when I was a kid. He said that it is not be meant literally. It just means that Christians are supposed to walk away from people who mean to hurt you.
Just that.

Thank you for your answer Estro Felino. Also, my question was based upon a video that I watched by @Ehav4Ever along with my reaction to it in post #258 in another thread. (And if you haven't watched that video yet, you probably can just watch the first half of it to get the point if you don't want to watch the entire video.) Therefore, as a Jew, if Jesus had that same understanding of the eye for an eye verse, I was wondering if that's how he viewed that verse, or if he viewed that verse as retaliation rather than equal justice and equal compensation. Because I was always under the impression that Jesus viewed those Torah verses as retaliation and that he was teaching not to retaliate but to endure and to roll with the punches so to speak.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
I also once asked one friar what is meant by this, likewise as @Estro Felino told, this is not to be interpreted literary,
he told me that Jesus didn't turn the other cheek to high priest when slapped by his servant, instead he fired back with words that insulted the high priest.

That's interesting. I had never looked at it like that before. Also, thank you for your answer, paradox.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
It's not so simple, allow me explain in detail...

People did not complain about Jesus, they saw him as prophet predicted by Moses.
It was Jewish priesthood that complained about Jesus because they saw him as challenging their authority.
Jewish priests could not simply go against Jesus because people were on his side,
doing so would be counter productive because they would turn people against them self.

Therefore what priests did was trying to catch Jesus in words which go against Jewish teachings and tradition, such as Jesus directly telling he's son of God,
this would give them a case to turn people against Jesus for blasphemy.

How could they do this?
According to Jewish law there need to be at least 2 witnesses to prove anyone wrong - see Deuteronomy 19:15
This means priests don't need to prove Jesus wrong before people, it's enough to have few witnesses and people no longer matter.
Priests therefore take Jesus to high priest Anna who is surrounded by witnesses.

Interrogation before the high priest with witnesses starts:


It is important to note here that Anna doesn't care for fair interrogation, all that he cares about is word play to make Jesus telling what ever that goes against tradition and the law before Anna's witnesses.
This way Anna would have witnesses and he could judge him according to the law.
Jesus knows pretty well that Anna is plotting against him in such a manner (trying to catch him in words), and this is where Jesus returns the plot in same manner to Anna before witnesses (an eye for an eye) by trying to catch Anna in words by telling Anna to go ask people.

Because people are on his side this would prove Anna wrong before people as well as before Anna's witnesses and Anna's plot against Jesus would actually be Jesus' plot against Anna.
Anna's servant spotted this and slapped Jesus for ex. "how do you dare to plot against Anna?" under umbrella of "Is this the way you answer the high priest?"
In other words we are here to ask questions not you, you're supposed to give an answer not to question high priest' integrity.

Do you see now?
Anna was plotting against Jesus and Jesus attempted to plot against Anna in same manner, this is why Jesus didn't turn the other cheek around but did an eye for an eye.
This is not about fair judgement and who is right but about catching each other in words.

Jesus tried to catch Anna in words (in same manner, an eye for an eye) but he was supposed to only answer to the questions instead.
If Jesus simply answered to the question this would be completely different story.


Therefore no, revenge lies in that Jesus was questioning Anna in same insidious manner as Anna while he was only supposed to answer to the question.

"Why did you hit me, what did I say that was wrong?" after servant slapped him only confirms that Jesus insists rather than to answer to the question.
If Jesus answered to the question they would for certain catch Jesus in words because he would be forced to deny he is son of God, which he would not do and would therefore be judged by high priest.

The whole thing was a mock trial and not according to the law anyway and when Jesus wanted some semblance of justice (in this case pleading the 5th amendment, which He a right to do) He was struck. Maybe Jesus did not say it with the feigned respect that the servant thought He should have spoken to the High Priest with.
Jesus wanted witnesses (His right) and they wanted to get the trial over with as fast as possible so that Jesus could be killed quickly and not cause trouble over the Passover weekend.
Looking at the other accounts we can see that witnesses were found but that they did not agree with each other and so were useless anyway.
What was needed was, as you say, for Jesus to say something in front of them, the Sanhedrin, which they could condemn Him with.
In the end Jesus did say that He was the Son of God and they then sighed with relief and said they did not need any more witnesses, that they could condemn Him on that.
Jesus could have said that at the start but I would say He wanted the gospel record to show the trial to be the sham it was and wanted the whole Sanhedrin involved in condemning Him.
Certainly there was nothing there which was revenge by Jesus unless you think that it is revenge to show the judges to be judging outside the provisions of the law.
One of the things that the Messiah was to do is to judge and that is what He had been doing over the past few years when He had been condemning the teachers of the law as hypocrites.
I think you have a wrong idea of what turning the other cheek means if you think that it means that injustice and evil should not be exposed by a Christian for the sake of not shaking the boat.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
It is not mean to be considered as a single verse an is part of many verses in chapter 5 which say that Jesus disciples are expected to do even more than the law requires on the side of good. They are to overbalance the scales. Eye for an eye is a statue of limitation where one does not seek physical revenge but merely monetary compensation for wrongs, but the disciple of Jesus must do better than to limit themselves to this and must not even seek compensation. Jesus sets up enormous borders around the laws. He is focused upon one law which says "Love the lord with all of your heart" and is saying that in order to do that many extremes are necessary and not merely fairness or restraint from doing wrong. It is an interpretation of how the law must be followed.

If Jesus were criticizing Baden Powell's Scout Law:

Baden Powell's Boy Scout Law:
"A Scout is: Trustworthy, loyal, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent"

Jesus version interpolated from Matthew 5:
"A scout is Trustworthy, loyal, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, reverent, forgiving, forgets wrongs and debts, is generous, loves adversaries, doesn't divorce even the meanest wife, is more pure than Job, doesn't make a move or sacrifice at the altar if another is angry with him/her but camps out until they forgive under the siege of his friendly overtures."​

Thank you, Brickjectivity. Also, in a conversation with @Ehav4Ever in post #259 in another thread, he made the point that:

the original Jewish Christians were so focused on the idea that their "end game" scenario was going to happen within their generation that they did not focus much on Torah, at a certain point. . .

But it's interesting that I came across an article that said:

Ethics

Along with his teachings on the kingdom and the law, Jesus advocated ethical purity. He demanded complete devotion to God, putting it ahead of devotion to self and even to family (Mark 3:31–35; Matthew 10:35–37), and taught that people should give up everything in order to obtain what was most precious (Matthew 13:44–46). According to Matthew 5:21–26 and 5:27–30, Jesus also held that observance of the law should be not only external but internal: hatred and lust, as well as murder and adultery, are wrong. The Jesus of Matthew in particular is a moral perfectionist (5:17–48). This fits quite well with the proclamation of the eschatological kingdom of God because Jesus believed, as fellow moral perfectionist Paul did, that divine intervention was near at hand, and therefore people had to be “blameless” for only a short time (1 Thessalonians 5:23). The difficulty with perfectionism in a continuing society is evident in later traditions regarding divorce. Paul quoted Jesus’ prohibition of it but then proceeded to make an exception—that if a Christian was married to an unbeliever, and the unbeliever wished a divorce, the Christian should agree to it—which he explicitly said was his own opinion, not the Lord’s (1 Corinthians 7:10–16). Similarly, Matthew depicts the disciples as responding to Jesus’ prohibition by proposing that if divorce is impossible it is better to avoid marriage (Matthew 19:10). The impossibility of being perfect during a full lifetime leads some modern interpreters to propose that Jesus intended these admonitions to be only an ideal, not a requirement. It is more likely, however, that Jesus the eschatological prophet regarded perfection as quite possible during the short period before the arrival of the Son of Man.

click here: Jesus - The relation of Jesus’ teaching to the Jewish law | Britannica

Because similar to the points that you brought out, how could you even have a functioning society if you don't even enforce the laws of society and have adequate compensation for breaking the law? Therefore, what Jesus said at Matthew 5:38-39 can be a bit confusing in my opinion.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
The commandment in Hebrew Scripture was meant to moderate vengeance; the punishment should not exceed the injury done. Jesus forbids even this proportionate retaliation. Of the five examples that follow, only the first deals directly with retaliation for evil; the others speak of liberality.

But are these verses really talking about retaliation or justice? See my other replies.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
At the end of the day, unconditional love will always overcome spitefulness, but to realize unconditional love, one must first overcome our own personal spitefulness. It is not meant to be taken literally.

Well, it seems like those verses are talking about spitefulness, but are they really? Also, see my other replies.
 
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