Prophet Muhammad did not marry a child

[Link]

@stevecanuck , research discourse by Foucault. It will give you insights about "authority" "power" and society.

 

[Starlight]

Salam

It is said everything in Quran about past chosen ones pertains to Mohammad (s) in some way. I believe his actions were similar to Khidr (a). Just as we can't kill kids we can't marry kids either. Khidr (a) killed a child and Mohammad (s) married a child, but for what reason? It is against the law, shariah, and Quran, but he still did it per command of God. If you recite Surah Tahrim, you can see the wisdom of doing this all along.

It's to give context of choice. Aisha and Hafsa were part of an elaborate plan and warned to not be like wives of Lut (a) and Nuh (a) who rebelled against their respective husbands, but God exposed it, and showed it was part of his plan all along, and this is because God's plan account other people plan all along and Satan and his forces plans are weak.

The harsh warning tone shows it was a big plan against the Prophet and there was no way he would know except God informed him.

Aisha and Hafsa after Surah Tahrim, chose the Prophet over hypocrites and disbelievers, but did that choice remain stable? The harsh warnings not to be like wives of Nuh (a) and Lut (a) show there can instability.

This is a delicate dance against Gog and Magog vs God and his Prophet. Aisha was married as a child because of this delicate hidden war between good and evil.

And God knows best.

The problem with the belief that prophet Muhammad married and had sex with a 9 years old is that some muslims think that since Muhammad married a child then they could also marry a child.

Some children die every year in child birth because they do not have big enought bodies to give birth.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

More and more muslims believe that prophet muhammad did not marry a 9year old girl. So no, God did not fail

If God wanted Muslims to know that child brides are unacceptable, then every Muslim who thinks they're okay represents a failure of God.

 

[Link]

The problem with the belief that prophet Muhammad married and had sex with a 9 years old is that some muslims think that since Muhammad married a child then they could also marry a child.

Some children die every year in child birth because they do not have big enought bodies to give birth.

Khidr (a) killing a child doesn't mean we can. So their inference is misguided.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That Muhammad married a 9 years old girl is not in the Quran. It is only from the hadiths

So... did God ensure that there's something in the Quran explicitly forbidding child marrying 9-year-olds?

... or did God fail to anticipated the hadiths that would lead his followers astray on this issue?

 

[Link]

So... did God ensure that there's something in the Quran explicitly forbidding child marrying 9-year-olds?

... or did God fail to anticipated the hadiths that would lead his followers astray on this issue?

There is no explicit set age, because "Rushd" and "Ahsadu" depend on circumstances. When do you let an orphan go and let them financial be responsible with the money saved up for them? This depends on "prime strength" and "guidance" with society functions, type of jobs, etc.

In earlier days of humanity, you can work as soon you hit puberty and be an apprentice and learn quickly. These days, it's not as easy.

So God said in Quran the age of marriage is when a human is at guidance (to deal with the world, moral issues) and utmost strength/prime strength. I don't know the exact age for each person. The Quran doesn't give exact age perhaps because these definitions are dynamic and depend on the environment we are in as well.

I believe hadiths show it to be when one reaches biological puberty.

I don't know personally what age and if hadiths are correct or not.

 

[firedragon]

Who is "differing to scholars"? There are a couple of apologists here who are doing that, but I'm certainly not. On the contrary I'm quoting them and relying on them.

Who is the scholar you are quoting that translates Annisa as children? Could that even be a scholar or even a layman who could do that?

You have been saying this multiple times, but you never gave a "scholar" who did that.

 

[firedragon]

There is no explicit set age, because "Rushd" and "Ahsadu" depend on circumstances. When do you let an orphan go and let them financial be responsible with the money saved up for them? This depends on "prime strength" and "guidance" with society functions, type of jobs, etc.

Brother. The Quran says Ashaddhakum. And Lashufahat. That is when it's balaghul nikaha. Rushdan does not only depend on circumstance, it also depends on Shadad.

 

[stevecanuck]

I believe many hadiths is false. And most likely the hadiths about Aisha's age when prophet Muhammad married her is false and fabricated. I believe some people fabricated false hadiths because they was enemies of islam. They wanted to attack prophet Muhammad and because of this they fabricated false hadiths about him.

That doesn't matter. What does matter is that those hadiths exist, and that some Muslims believe in them and use them as justification for engaging in child marriage.

Many muslim scholars today has found much and good evidence that Aisha was much older when prophet Muhammad constumated the marriage with her.

Link?

 

[Link]

@stevecanuck , the word "Worship" "Serve" depends on context. The word for God in Hebrew depends on context, sometimes it means "exalted ones" sometimes "gods" sometimes "God".

The word "Nisa" sometimes means adult women, and sometimes it means female. Same with "Rajul", sometimes it means male, sometimes man, and sometimes (there is a place in Quran) where it can even be the "men" from the Jinn....

It depends. So you are sort of correct, the word itself allows it to be female children as well (can be used for the word female even though there is another word for that, which means specifically females), but it's normal usage is "women" as in adult women.

Something you have to know in Arabic, it's ordered in primary to non-primary meanings. So many words are such that they are "primarily means this", but "if shown impossible, then ...." or "if that's not possible, then it's more of parable like meaning of...."

That's how Arabic is organized. There's multiple meaning to words, but some are more prime then others. They have priority.

Nisa has priority meaning women and female which has other words for it, is only meant by it, if primary meaning can't be assumed.

 

[Link]

Brother. The Quran says Ashaddhakum. And Lashufahat. That is when it's balaghul nikaha. Rushdan does not only depend on circumstance, it also depends on Shadad.

Yeah we agree on this.

 

[Starlight]

That doesn't matter. What does matter is that those hadiths exist, and that some Muslims believe in them and use them as justification for engaging in child marriage.



Link?

Age of Ayeshah (RTA) at the Time of Her Marriage | Javed Ahmad Ghamidi - YouTube

Proof Aisha Was Not 9 Years Old (When She Married Prophet Muhammad) - YouTube
Aisha was not 9 when she got married! - عمر عائشة الحقيقي عند زواجها من النبي - YouTube

Aisha was not a child Her age at the time of Marriage | Mufti Abu Layth - YouTube
Age of Aisha (ra)- Mufti Abu Layth - YouTube

True Age of Aisha. Prophet Muhammad ﷺ did NOT marry a child . Bukhari narration is FALSE! - YouTube

 

[stevecanuck]

Who is the scholar you are quoting that translates Annisa as children?

I never said that. Strike 37.

 

[stevecanuck]

No it isnt. Answer it. Thats what the topic is about. If you dont plan to then dont waste my time

No it isnt. Answer it. Thats what the topic is about. If you dont plan to then dont waste my time

Welcome to RF.

I see you're well on your way to sussing out who's here for genuine discussion, and who's here to obfuscate.

 

[firedragon]

I never said that. Strike 37.

Okay. Who translated anything to do with the verses in concern as "prepubescent girls"? Please advice.

 

[firedragon]

That doesn't matter. What does matter is that those hadiths exist, and that some Muslims believe in them and use them as justification for engaging in child marriage.

So you tend to go with whoever Muslim who supports your view? You don't intend to objectively look at the arguments and the evidences provided by anyone but go with the popular beliefs.

That's an ad populum fallacy mate.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Based on what? Verse 65:4 is pretty clear that wives can be prepubescent.

I would offer it is not that clear as to what that allows.

Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) was a Messenger from God, the very embodiment of God's Law, Virtues and Morality. Laws that God gave for the people and the age.

Thus Muhammad was God's Will for humanity.

Abdul'baha has given a talk as to what Muhammad faced in the age he gave the Message, the laws given of God were to bring about radical change and attitudes toward women in that age amongst such barbaric peoples.

"We entertain no prejudice against Muhammad. Outwardly the Arabian nation was instrumental in overthrowing the Parsi dominion, the sovereignty of Persia. Therefore, the old Parsi nation manifested the utmost contempt toward the Arabs. But we deal justly and will never abandon the standard of fairness. The Arabians were in the utmost state of degradation. They were bloodthirsty and barbarous, so savage and degraded that the Arabian father often buried his own daughter alive. Consider: Could any barbarism be lower than this? The nation consisted of warring, hostile tribal peoples inhabiting the vast Arabian peninsula, and their business consisted in fighting and pillaging each other, making captive women and children, killing each other. Muhammad appeared among such a people. He educated and unified these barbarous tribes, put an end to their shedding of blood. Through His education they reached such a degree of civilization that they subdued and governed continents and nations. What a great civilization was established in Spain by the Muslims! What a marvelous civilization was founded in Morocco by the Moors! What a powerful caliphate or successorship was set up in Baghdad! How much Islam served and furthered the cause of science! Why then should we deny Muhammad? If we deny Him, we awaken enmity and hatred."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 346-347

The distortion of the intent of the Quran comes from lustfull men that cannot control their own urges.

Regards Tony

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There is no explicit set age, because "Rushd" and "Ahsadu" depend on circumstances.

I'll take that as a "no."

 

[danieldemol]

I believe some people fabricated false hadiths because they was enemies of islam. They wanted to attack prophet Muhammad and because of this they fabricated false hadiths about him.

All this is not true, the people who wrote the hadith were accepted as believing Muslims. *If* they lied about this it would have likely been in the nature of pious fraud.

Your accusation that they were enemies of Islam is utterly unfounded and it is to your shame that you are prepared to make such an unfounded allegation to promote your agenda that Muhammad was a true Prophet.

In my opinion.

 

[Bathos Logos]

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 )

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 )

Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die.(Leviticus 24:10-16 )

Kill False Prophets

1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 )

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’ You may wonder, ‘How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?’ If the prophet predicts something in the LORD’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 )

Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 )

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

For the LORD had said to Moses, ‘Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.’ (Numbers 1:48-51 )

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 )






2) God’s Murders for Stupid Reasons:

Kill Brats

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 )

God Kills the Curious

And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and’ fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

Killed by a Lion

Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, “Strike me!” But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.” And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 )

Killing the Good Samaritan

The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.

When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 )

Can you please let me know how all this is relevant to the thread topic?

Thanks in advance.