Prophet Muhammad did not marry a child

[England my lionheart]

Hmm. I can see you are teaching Islam here. Correct? Let me ask you a question on what you said above.

Jawaaz is when the approval for marriage is taken from the to be bride. Okay? This is according to every single fikh in traditional Islam.

Can you tell me what is the age of "Shadad" for a girl to give permission for marriage in Islamic tradition?

I ask since you have just given a ruling above.

If only I could and not just in Islam,I’m so not an expert but just an observer.

AFAIK there is no age given in the Quran so it’s left to scholars like those in Pakistan ,guess what the government tried to up the age of marriage to 17/18 but the council for Islamic ideology stopped it by calling it “unislamic” and “blasphemous” and say this:


Clerics on the council object to minimum age requirements, arguing instead that an individual can marry once reaching puberty, which can be as early as the age of 9.

I wonder where the age of 9 comes from?,now not everyone in Islam would agree that the hadith about Aishas marriage is true but for 100s of years many take that a precedent for child marriage.

 

[firedragon]

Can you please let me know how all this is relevant to the thread topic?

Thanks in advance.

It is not relevant at all. I am responding to someone who just came to spread some of his hatred which was irrelevant. It's just a cut and paste game.

 

[firedragon]

AFAIK there is no age given in the Quran so it’s left to scholars

Yes. The exact age is not given. But, it says very vividly that the Balaghul Nikaha or the age of marriage should be with maturity, mature enough for the girl to be financially independent and to be able to handle finances on her own (inheritance), full physical growth, and no childishness. There are some who cherry pick verses, muslims and non-muslims both do that. Even scholars do that sometimes which is a method they had developed. But the better method is to read the whole book, and take context of the whole book.

like those in Pakistan ,guess what the government tried to up the age of marriage to 17/18 but the council for Islamic ideology stopped it by calling it “unislamic” and “blasphemous” and say this:


Clerics on the council object to minimum age requirements, arguing instead that an individual can marry once reaching puberty, which can be as early as the age of 9.

Pakistan is Pakistan. There is no indication in Islam that Pakistan is the benchmark. Hope you understand that. No country or world is a benchmark.

I wonder where the age of 9 comes from?,now not everyone in Islam would agree that the hadith about Aishas marriage is true but for 100s of years many take that a precedent for child marriage.

True. For many years, many have believed it to be true. Some people do tend to be dogmatic. Some people believe that they should not question their particular dogma. That's called Thakleedh in Islam, and some of the schools of thought particularly condemn that practice and they practice Akal which is what the Qur'an teaches. Using reason, logic and Ijtihad or independent investigation.

The hadith you speak of is in the Buhari collection and his student's collection Muslim. So it's primarily Buhari, and they have conflicting reports in age. Some Muslims have adopted this dogmatic following of Buhari's collection of ahadith as if they are above the Quran. Not only some Muslims, even some atheists and Christians seem to want to believe some hadith so passionately, but the thing is, these few want to believe those hadith that they think they can use to insult billions of human beings. But, Islamic scholarship generally does not believe in hadith to that depth. It is the layman who does. Maybe some fringe scholars did propagate ahadith to be so true without question, but they are fringe. Ahadith are called Kaburul Ahad, which means ultimately it is one mans word. So you have to investigate so stringently to navigate through hadith which is called Ilme Ahadith, and even then, you should not consider it absolute.

If this is such an important hadith why didn't Imam Malik narrate it? After all, he is supposed to have the Golden Chain. That means the most authentic hadith. Not Buhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi or anyone. Not even the famous Imam Hanbal. It is Malik who had the golden chain. He didn't report this. No where. And where does this hadith come from? Aisha's own nephew Urwa. How would you know if Urwa actually reports this or not? And if he did, how would you know if he was trying to lower Aisha's age so low that it is impossible for her to have slept around with so many men prior to marrying Muhammed because the Shii's were spreading that she was a loose woman who was sleeping around with many men prior to marrying Muhammed because they were at war with her? Do you know that Shii scholars and Sunni scholars like Fakhruddhin arrazi have said that this is the case? And do you know who Imam Malik was? He was the first well known

I can't go on for too long. There is more evidence within the hadith that Aisha was much older when she got married. I say that again. There is more evidence "within the hadith" that she was much older. Just that internet polemicists are unaware and don't care because their agenda doesnt suit that kind of investigation or reporting. For example, how could the sister of Aisha who was 10 years older than her be in her late thirties when Aisha married Muhammed if Aisha was 6 years old? It's a contradiction. How is Aisha called young woman when she heard something from her parents like 10 years prior to marrying Muhammed? In Arabic there is a big difference between being called Thifl or Jaariyah. How come the girls permission is necessary for marriage according to ahadith and Aisha was 6 when she got married? To give permission according to Fikh one has to be of grown age with maturity. How come everyone has a habit of dropping the "Sahih" bomb without knowing about Muhkam and Sarih?

There are so many things scholars have studied from the time of Imam Muhajid aljabr, and this was nothing new? I can give you primary sources, secondary sources, third party sources, intense studies, it's all available in classical Islamic studies.

Cheers.

 

[danieldemol]

You don't intend to objectively look at the arguments and the evidences provided by anyone

We can't really do that at the moment because we don't have anyone from the other side of the story to provide their arguments.

We used to have @Shakeel around to do that but I haven't heard from him for a while so we are only getting one side of the story now and that is not how one does an adequate investigation.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

We

Who is "we"? You group of "what"?

We used to have @Shakeel around to do that

So whoever this Shakeel is in your "we" group? What is the entry criteria to your "we" group?

 

[danieldemol]

Who is "we"? You group of "what"?

The group of impartial investigators

So whoever this Shakeel is in your "we" group?

No, Shakeel would be one of the people providing the other side of the story.

What is the entry criteria to your "we" group?

Being prepared to hear both sides of the argument prior to reaching a conclusion would be a good start.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

The group of impartial investigators

Impartial? You think your groupie you called Shakeel, whoever that is, is impartial? Can you prove it? Hilarious.

No, Shakeel would be one of the people providing the other side of the story.

So that's your group mentality. The one who shows "the other side of the story". The one or two who just supports your hate mongering is your groupie. That's your standard.

Being prepared to hear both sides of the argument prior to reaching a conclusion would be a good start.

But you are not prepared. You are looking for tools to spread your hate. Anyone who supports you is your "we" group. The others are the 'others".

Try and find a better path.

 

[danieldemol]

Impartial? You think your groupie you called Shakeel, whoever that is, is impartial? Can you prove it? Hilarious.

I never said he was impartial.

So that's your group mentality. The one who shows "the other side of the story". The one or two who just supports your hate mongering is your groupie. That's your standard.



But you are not prepared. You are looking for tools to spread your hate. Anyone who supports you is your "we" group. The others are the 'others".

Try and find a better path.

Ad hominem because I suggested we hear both sides of the argument /yawn

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

I never said he was impartial.


Ad hominem because I suggested we hear both sides of the argument /yawn

In my opinion.

What are your arguments for and against?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I believe Prophet Muhammad did not marry and had sex with a 9 year old child. I believe that is a big lie. The hadiths about this is fabricated. The Quran is against child marriage, and prophet Muhammad followed the Quran.

Quran Surat Akl-An'am 6:114
Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

I believe the Quran is from God. I believe the hadiths is man made. And hadiths was written down 200 years after prophet Muhammad lived, and because of this not all hadiths is true. The Quran should always be most important.

By the way,children who is only 9 years old has not big enough body to give birth. They has very high risk of dying in child birth. Propet Muhammad was a prophet from God. Because of that i believe he never married a 9year old girl.

And most cultures allowed to constumate the marriage not before the age of 12-13 years old.

I wish I can give you a thousand stars, no a million, for having the courage to stand up for the truth. She was about 19 at the time. What you say about the Quran is true that it is the only real authority in Islam.

 

[KWED]

I believe Prophet Muhammad did not marry and had sex with a 9 year old child. I believe that is a big lie. The hadiths about this is fabricated.

I appreciate that it can be uncomfortable for people when they find out that someone they looked up to was actually a bit dodgy, but the "facts" don't care about your feelings. ("Facts" only in an Islamic context, because much of it is not historically verifiable).

There are many sahih hadith that specify her age as 6 at marriage and 9 at sex. There are other hadith that reference her young age and immaturity, playing with dolls, etc, that confirm her as a child at the time.
What's more, no Islamic scholar challenged this narrative until quite recently, when sceptics began to highlight it as one of the problems with the claim that Muhammad is the perfect moral role model for all mankind.

The Quran is against child marriage,

No it isn't. There is nothing in the Quran that states even suggests that girls as young as 9 cannot be married.

There are actually passages that imply condoning of marriage and sex with very young girls.
Sura 65:4 states that women who are divorced and remarry must wait until after their next period before having sex (iddah) in order to guarantee the fatherhood of any offspring (ie. to make sure they are not already pregnant by their previous husband).
It specifies that for those who no longer menstruate or who have yet to menstruate, the iddah is three months. This reference is confirmed by many classical and modern tafsir to refer to those who are too young to have menstruated.
So, why would Allah reveal that girls who are too young to have menstruated need an iddah if they cannot marry and have sex?

Also, the Quran refers to puberty (usually occurring around age 8-13) as the sign of becoming an adult in sexual matters. Prepubescent male children are not covered by the rules concerning being in the company of women. In Islam, adulthood is regarded as being reached with the first period or wet dream, thus confirming that marriage and sex with girls as young as 9 is technically permitted.

Quran Surat Akl-An'am 6:114

Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

No mention of the age of marriage, consent etc there.

I believe the Quran is from God. I believe the hadiths is man made. And hadiths was written down 200 years after prophet Muhammad lived, and because of this not all hadiths is true. The Quran should always be most important.

The hadith are a record of the words and deeds of Muhammad, from those who witnessed them. Simply rejecting those hadith that don't suit your agenda won't work.

By the way,children who is only 9 years old has not big enough body to give birth. They has very high risk of dying in child birth.

Indeed, but not sure what that is an argument against Muhammad's marriage to Aisha.
It is interesting that Aisha never had any children, despite being Muhammad's favoured wife for sex and him fathering several children by different mothers. Some have surmised that it may have been due to damage caused by sex/miscarriages at an early age.

Propet Muhammad was a prophet from God. Because of that i believe he never married a 9year old girl.

Non sequitur. Even if he was a messenger of a god (which is extremely unlikely), he could still marry a child.

And most cultures allowed to constumate the marriage not before the age of 12-13 years old.

Islam is an exception because of Muhammad's behaviour.

 

[KWED]

No, it implicitly condones it. Surah 65 (Divorce) is quite clear (I've removed the non-salient verses and/or portions of the verses):

65:1 - "O Prophet, when you divorce women, divorce them when they have reached their period".
65:4 - "If you have any doubt whether your wives have reached the stage of menopause, the waiting period will be three months. This will also be the same for those who do not experience menstruation".

As you can see, those verses cover all the bases, Verse 1 concerns adult women who still have periods, while verse 4 discusses either end of the maturity spectrum starting with those too old to menstruate, followed by those too young (children).

I've seen someone try to wriggle out of the latter by saying there are some mature women who don't menstruate for whatever reason, and that verse 4 is referring to them. To me, that's an obvious dodge. If Allah did not mean children, he should have done a much better job of making that crystal clear. Child marriages exist throughout the Muslim world, and probably because of 65:4.

I predict @firedragon quizzing you on the your knowledge of Classical Arabic here, conveniently forgetting the concept of deferring to the expertise of the many fluently bilingual, Islamic scholars who consider the passage to mean along the lines of "not yet begun menstruation due to young age".

He is a classic example of the random internet "scholar" who claims to know better than all the Bukharis, Ibn Kathirs, Jalalyns, Maududis, etc, etc throughout history.

 

[KWED]

Not all women menstruate. I believe the verse is about woman who do not menstrate because of illness or other different reasons.

Most likely Allah did not make it clear because Allah gave us humans common sense and reason.

Renowned Islamic scholars like Ibn Abbas, Jalalayn, Ibn Kathir, Tabari, Maududi, etc all used their Allah-given common sense and reason to confirm that it was referring to those too young to menstruate.
Why do you assume your "common sense and reason" is better than theirs?

Allah expects people to understand that one does not marry children.

Question begging.
The issue is "does Allah condone marriage to children?" You cannot assume your conclusion as your initial premise.
(IOW, you cannot answer "does Allah condone marriage to children" with "No, because he does not condone marriage to children". Circular logic 101)

 

[Starlight]

I appreciate that it can be uncomfortable for people when they find out that someone they looked up to was actually a bit dodgy, but the "facts" don't care about your feelings. ("Facts" only in an Islamic context, because much of it is not historically verifiable).

There are many sahih hadith that specify her age as 6 at marriage and 9 at sex. There are other hadith that reference her young age and immaturity, playing with dolls, etc, that confirm her as a child at the time.
What's more, no Islamic scholar challenged this narrative until quite recently, when sceptics began to highlight it as one of the problems with the claim that Muhammad is the perfect moral role model for all mankind.

No it isn't. There is nothing in the Quran that states even suggests that girls as young as 9 cannot be married.

There are actually passages that imply condoning of marriage and sex with very young girls.
Sura 65:4 states that women who are divorced and remarry must wait until after their next period before having sex (iddah) in order to guarantee the fatherhood of any offspring (ie. to make sure they are not already pregnant by their previous husband).
It specifies that for those who no longer menstruate or who have yet to menstruate, the iddah is three months. This reference is confirmed by many classical and modern tafsir to refer to those who are too young to have menstruated.
So, why would Allah reveal that girls who are too young to have menstruated need an iddah if they cannot marry and have sex?

Also, the Quran refers to puberty (usually occurring around age 8-13) as the sign of becoming an adult in sexual matters. Prepubescent male children are not covered by the rules concerning being in the company of women. In Islam, adulthood is regarded as being reached with the first period or wet dream, thus confirming that marriage and sex with girls as young as 9 is technically permitted.

No mention of the age of marriage, consent etc there.

The hadith are a record of the words and deeds of Muhammad, from those who witnessed them. Simply rejecting those hadith that don't suit your agenda won't work.

Indeed, but not sure what that is an argument against Muhammad's marriage to Aisha.
It is interesting that Aisha never had any children, despite being Muhammad's favoured wife for sex and him fathering several children by different mothers. Some have surmised that it may have been due to damage caused by sex/miscarriages at an early age.

Non sequitur. Even if he was a messenger of a god (which is extremely unlikely), he could still marry a child.

Islam is an exception because of Muhammad's behaviour.

Some people begun to fabricate false hadiths. People fabricated false hadiths because they was enemies of islam. They wanted to attack prophet Muhammad.

And most likely the hadiths about Aisha's age when prophet Muhammad married her is false and fabricated. Fabfricated hadiths is not a new problem, most muslims believe there exist hadiths that is false,weak and lies.

I believe the Quran is from God. The Quran was written when Muhammad was alive. The hadiths was written down 200 years after prophet Muhammad death, and The Quran should always be most important.
I agree with @loverofhumanity that the Quran is the only real authority in Islam.

 

[KWED]

Steve. Do you know what "Annisa" means? Is it female or women? How do you define a woman?

• What do you call a young girl of prepubescent age in arabic?
• How does the Qur'an define marital age in chapter two?

Right on cue!
@stevecanuck

 

[KWED]

What's more important to note Starlight is that the verse is directly addressing women. Annisa. Women are older women. In Arabic, Annisa is not a reference to the female gender. Anyone who has a little bit of arabic knowledge would know that a female in gender is Alif, noon, Saa or thaa (The fourth letter in the arabic alphabet). It does not refer to babies.

There are some individuals who interpreted it that way, but that's a serious error. And of course a few atheists who have not studied the subject but pretend to know it all make some bogus cases.

Also, Yaisnal Mahidhi, it could never in your life mean "never got their menstruation". Yaisna means "completed", or "got rid of", or as some translate it "despaired". Not "I have not got it yet". It's pretty stupid for people to insist on something they don't understand.

Two points.
1. It's referring to grown women.
2. It says you are done with your menstruation.



Peace.

And yet the consensus of some of the most renowned and authoritative Islamic scholars in history is that it is referring to girls too young to have menstruated. Why do you think they all got it so wrong while you, a random internet "scholar" with only a basic grasp of the Quran and Arabic, is the only one clever enough to spot it?

Hmm...

Now see how some ignorant haters do the "he said" fallacy. It's called "appealing to authority".

You really need to try and understand the difference between "appeal to authority" and "deferring to expertise".
Also understand that even appeal to authority is not automatically a flawed argument. Maybe you don't know what "authority on a subject" means?

Basically, you are saying that quoting Einstein in an argument about relativity is "appealing to authority".

 

[KWED]

The Quran was written down when prophet Muhammad was alive.

Well, your belief is wrong. Not even Islamic scholars believe that. The Quran was not collated and written as one volume until many years after his death. It was mostly memorised by companions, with some passages written down.

That Muhammad married a 9 years old girl is not in the Quran. It is only from the hadiths

Do you similarly reject everything else in hadith that is not in the Quran?

 

[Starlight]

Well, your belief is wrong. Not even Islamic scholars believe that. The Quran was not collated and written as one volume until many years after his death. It was mostly memorised by companions, with some passages written down.

Do you similarly reject everything else in hadith that is not in the Quran?

You are wrong. The Quran was written down when Prophet Muhammad was alive.
Most islamic scholars agree with that

 

[stevecanuck]

It's speaking to women, not babies. It's speaking to divorcees, and to marry one has to be of mature age, and fully grown, according to the Quran.

• Steve. Do you know what "Annisa" means? Is it female or women? How do you define a woman?

• What do you call a young girl of prepubescent age in arabic?

• How does the Qur'an define marital age in chapter two?

You don't know? Say you have no clue but you pretend.

The logical progression of listing females at various stages of life from 65:1 through 65:4 is clear and obvious:
1. Women of child-bearing age.
2. Women who are past child-bearing age.
3. Females who have not yet reached child-bearing age (There's a name for such people. They're called children).

Your questions above are just another way of pointing elsewhere and yelling, "SQUIRREL!". "Annisa" does not appear in the description of "those who do not menstruate". Why not? Because it refers to children, not grown women.

 

[stevecanuck]

Corpus Quran translates it as "despaired". Not as prepubescent girls.

You're flailing. "Despaired" is used in describing post-menopausal women. It's the next statement that deals with children.

(Shakir) - And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses.

Does Yusuf Ali translate it as "young girls"? Not a single person can translate it as young girls or prepubescent girls. No one can.

Nope. Nobody used those words, and nobody here has claimed they do.