There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[ElishaElijah]

Why would he care? Like me, he doesn't consider scripture authoritative or an adequate resource. I am amazed at your lack of what can be called cognitive empathy, which is analogous to affective empathy, or a sense of what the other guy is feeling, but here refers to a sense of what the other guy is thinking. You seem to lack that. Your writing never reflects that you hold the concept that others have different minds and different worldviews. It seems to shock you that they don't go to your Bible for answers, even when they tell you repeatedly that they don't believe what you believe about it.



Yes. This is something you could have gleaned yourself with cognitive empathy were that ability in your toolbox. Of course that's what he thinks, and what I think - you imagine that a god healed your addictions, you imagine that it occurred instantaneously, and that you imagine that a god speaks to you. What else is possible for them to think given that they have minds of their own that evaluate evidence differently from you?



Not to the unbeliever. It's all just faith-based belief. You may believe that baptism matters beyond psychologically, but the skeptic doesn't. You may believe that there was some kind of transformation beyond psychological in you that you call saved and born again, but the skeptic doesn't believe that. Why do you never seem to learn that?



We know. It's actually more than some. It's all of them, although some have come to understand that as I have. It was my realization that what I was calling a relationship with God was a relationship with my own mind that allowed me to abandon faith and return to empiricism.



There you go again. What fruit were you expecting? To be believed without any evidence beyond your testimony of what you experienced and what you thought that meant? You keep offering your theology to people who have rejected it. It really doesn't matter to anybody else what you believe about scripture, and this continues to amaze and frustrate you.



I've noticed that, too.

Have a good one, been good talking to you

 

[dybmh]

Could you explain this assumption to me, as I have to admit when it was asked I saw none?

The assumption is that "no" is the same as no answer at all.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Well I'm a little in awe of this, I have nothing but respect for how you not only endured this appalling abuse, but had the strength to halt it the minute you were old enough and able to confront your abusers. Your point about your unanswered prayers also make a startlingly salient point, since if a deity existed and yet sat by and ignored the genuine appeals of a child under such horrific circumstances it would indeed be a sadistic monster, by any objective standard.

Thank you for your kind reply, Sheldon. I truly appreciate it. If God actually exists, then there's no doubt in my mind that he's a malign and sadistic monster for ignoring my genuine pleas to save me from being abused and bullied while I was growing up. I also think he's a malign and sadistic monster for allowing children to be abused, raped, molested, and murdered. If God exists, then I am convinced that there is more than enough sufficient evidence in the Bible and in the world today and also throughout human history to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he is guilty of immeasurable crimes against humanity and that he's a genocidal monster. What kind of a god would allow an estimated six million of his own "chosen people" to be massacred by the Nazis during the Holocaust? As far as I'm concerned, that's not a loving, merciful god who loves humanity, but a hostile god who deserves to be shunned and rejected.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Then why is God silent?

Good question. I have some questions of my own: Why was God silent to the pleas of an innocent child who begged him to save her from being abused and bullied? Why did he abandon this child to live in an abusive home for her entire childhood and do nothing to protect her from bullying and harassment by other children throughout her school years? Why didn't he save her and be the loving and merciful God that she'd been hearing about in church? For the record, I'm already pretty familiar with the justifications that some Christians will use in an effort to justify God's heinous actions in ignoring the sincere pleas of a child to be saved from being abused.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Good for you it's not easy to challenge your beliefs. Many people are far too stuck in myths to ever consider taking an honest look at their beliefs.

Thank you for your compliment, joelr. I appreciate it.

To be honest, it was very difficult for me to question God, the Bible, and what I believed as a Christian because I was raised in the church and indoctrinated to believe in God no matter what. I was taught to believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that I should never question its authority and accuracy. I was also taught to never question God in any way, and I was shamed by other Christians when I did. So, I quickly learned to keep my doubts and questions to myself while I was growing up. Unfortunately, this mentality stuck with me for the majority of my adult life, and I was a Christian for 30 years. I always felt shame and guilt whenever I questioned God, so I pushed my doubts to the back of my mind and tried to ignore them. But I lived with the nagging feeling that I was ignoring my doubts, and that made me feel sad and confused. Long story short, about a year and a half ago, I finally got to a breaking point where I decided that I wasn't going to ignore my doubts anymore. I decided I was going to face them, come what may, and so I did.

I began to examine and re-examine everything that I believed about God, the Bible, and everything else I believed as a Christian. As I said, it was very difficult for me, but I had my beloved, loving husband to help me get through it. I think of myself as a prime example of how deeply a person can be brainwashed and ensnared by a religion. My belief and faith in God were deeply entrenched in my psyche, and it was almost impossible for me to leave it behind. I compare my emotional dependence on God to being locked in a prison cell, except the door to my cell was open, but I never realized that I could leave whenever I wanted to. Being a devout Christian was detrimental to my emotional, mental, and physical health, and letting go of my faith was the best decision that I've ever made.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
So can you explain the objective difference between a deity not answering a prayer, and no deity existing to answer it?

God may say no to your specific request and yes to something else

Yes, you said this over and over again, why do you keep repeating the claim, while ignoring the question? The question is, can you objectively explain the difference between what you call a "no answer", and a deity not existing to answer it? No one has questioned that you subjectively believe there is a difference.

If you can't, then why not just say so?

 

[Sheldon]

God speaks Spirit to Spirit, also confirms with
his Word or other believers. I will be reading the Bible and the verse will come alive, something I have read a bunch of times will speak to me for a certain situation and you just know, it’s a living word not just words on a page.
You know when I don’t hear anything at all? When I don’t pray.
What I’m hearing from people on here is they are prayer less and faithless, these aren’t good attributes.

Cool, now one more time, when you claim a prayer has been answered by a no from an extant deity, can you offer an objective explanation of how this is different to no deity existing to answer the prayer?

 

[Sheldon]

The assumption is that "no" is the same as no answer at all.

No it isn't, the question, was how do you objectively differentiate between a no answer, and no deity existing to answer? There is no assumption there.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No it isn't, the question, was how do you objectively differentiate between a no answer, and no deity existing to answer? There is no assumption there.

Believers often have to change the question or the topic if they can't help it.

For example when I point out how all of the evidence goes against certain Bible beliefs, such as a worldwide flood, that one is claiming that God is a liar if one insists that the Flood id happened. They just can't get that. They seem to think that I am claiming that God is a liar. They cannot afford to see that that is what they are doing. If God made the Earth and all of the evidence from the Earth says that there was no flood, that there could not have been a flood, they don't understand how their God's own work contradicting Genesis would make God a liar.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Believers often have to change the question or the topic if they can't help it.

For example when I point out how all of the evidence goes against certain Bible beliefs, such as a worldwide flood, that one is claiming that God is a liar if one insists that the Flood id happened. They just can't get that. They seem to think that I am claiming that God is a liar. They cannot afford to see that that is what they are doing. If God made the Earth and all of the evidence from the Earth says that there was no flood, that there could not have been a flood, they don't understand how their God's own work contradicting Genesis would make God a liar.

And when you get to the Judgement that you don’t believe will happen and find out you are wrong about God and the events of the Bible, have miscalculated and now you have to suffer the consequences for eternity, then what? Still going to be talking or crying? Just asking, because people can do all kinds of talking right now. So you trust Science and I trust God.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And when you get to the Judgement that you don’t believe will happen and find out you are wrong about God and the events of the Bible, have miscalculated and now you have to suffer the consequences for eternity, then what? Still going to be talking or crying? Just asking, because people can do all kinds of talking right now. So you trust Science and I trust God.

Empty threats are not very convincing. But if that happens I will state that I was only following the evidence that God gave to us. I know, you believe that God is a liar, but that is okay.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Empty threats are not very convincing. But if that happens I will state that I was only following the evidence that God gave to us. I know, you believe that God is a liar, but that is okay.

Is that what you will say? He already said every man will be without excuse when the motives will be revealed. You take this as a threat when it’s a warning and a reality. Everyone is responsible for themselves and the decisions they make, seems you are going to blame someone else.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Empty threats are not very convincing. But if that happens I will state that I was only following the evidence that God gave to us. I know, you believe that God is a liar, but that is okay.

I knew you wouldn't fall for Pascal's wager that was used in the post you replied to.

 

[Sheldon]

And when you get to the Judgement that you don’t believe will happen and find out you are wrong about God and the events of the Bible, have miscalculated and now you have to suffer the consequences for eternity, then what?

I don't believe it will happen, so your loaded question makes no sense. However, hypothetically I might offer your woeful and irrational arguments, as mitigation for sustaining my lack of belief. In that scenario you might be answerable to any deity that mastered human logic, of course if any deity is too stupid for that, then who knows.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I knew you wouldn't fall for Pascal's wager that was used in the post you replied to.

The fact is that he would fail at dealing with Pascal's wager. Let me show you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

@ElishaElijah What will you do if you get to Judgement and find that you have been worshipping the wrong God and are now damned to that God's version of hell?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Is that what you will say? He already said every man will be without excuse when the motives will be revealed. You take this as a threat when it’s a warning and a reality. Everyone is responsible for themselves and the decisions they make, seems you are going to blame someone else.

But your book lies and you should know that. You can't have it both ways. My beliefs are based upon evidence. If the God created the world he also created the evidence. If the evidence is false then God is a liar. If the evidence is accurate then I am not in any danger for my beliefs.

It is a pity that you do not understand the nature of evidence and refuse to even learn what it is.

 

[Sheldon]

Is that what you will say? He already said every man will be without excuse when the motives will be revealed.

Nonsense, that claim comes from humans during a period of ignorance and superstition.

You take this as a threat when it’s a warning and a reality.

It's a vapid threat, and the rest is hilarious, I fear it about as much as I fear a nefarious mermaid will one day drag me to a watery grave.

Everyone is responsible for themselves and the decisions they make,

Indeed, and the consequences and suffering of the pernicious religious doctrine some people espouse, based on the rank unevidenced superstition they peddle, is ipso facto something they are responsible for.

seems you are going to blame someone else.

How exactly will an omniscient omnipotent deity even dare to suggest that I, an evolved mammalian ape, is remotely culpable for its inability or unwillingness to demonstrate that it exists? That's just too hilarious...

 

[Sheldon]

@ElishaElijah What will you do if you get to Judgement and find that you have been worshipping the wrong God and are now damned to that God's version of hell?

Oh, kaboom, Pascal's wager rammed right up Pascal's rec**m.

The flaw is not just the unevidenced assumption that any risk exists in the first place, but in the failure to recognise that belief itself must incur risk, since there are a limitless number of choices to believe in. The rationale fails on both levels.

Kudos....

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oh, kaboom, Pascal's wager rammed right up Pascal's rec**m.

The flaw is not just the unevidenced assumption that any risk exists in the first place, but in the failure to recognise that belief itself must incur risk, since there are a limitless number of choices to believe in. The rationale fails on both levels.

Kudos....

Thank you. There are several alternative. For example since the odds are that one will be wrong no matter which God one believes in one may as well believe in the God with the best heaven. That pretty much eliminates any of the Abrahamic Gods. If one is going to be irrational one should at least try to be rationally irrational