There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[joelr]

I don’t know if it is or not or why but It’s possible the only evidence of wounds anyone has in Heaven are on Jesus Christ.

Then I'll tell you. No one has ever grown a limb back through prayer. Or done anything that doesn't also happen to people in other religions or atheists. Showing it's all imaginary.

 

[joelr]

Well I was serious:
“For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

More proof this is just another mystery cult. The mysteries spoke in terms of "milk" and "solid food". Milk was for beginners who haven't gotten to the secrets yet.

"I could not address you people who live by the spirit but as people who are mere worldly - infants in Christ. I gave you milk not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed you are still not ready. 1C. 3:1-2

This is mystery cult terminology. Milk is for non-members. There are many others. Mystery religions are all the "pagan" religions influenced by Greek myths.

Anyone interested in a full lecture Dr Carrier has an interesting short presentation:

 

[joelr]

I lost count of how many times I prayed to God in Jesus' name when I was a child and teenager, pleading with God in Jesus' name to save me from being abused by my adopted mother and adopted older brother (click here). I prayed to God in Jesus' name, pleading with God to save me from being bullied and harassed in school. For me, praying to God was like praying to a brick wall and expecting the wall to answer, because in spite of all the years I prayed to God in Jesus' name, I suffered abuse at home for 13 1/2 years and I was bullied in school for 12 years. I finally came to the realization that God wasn't ever going to save me, so I stopped praying to him for a couple of years. I lost hope in him and I resigned myself to the life I knew I could never escape until I turned 18 years old.

I saved myself shortly after I turned 18 when I physically confronted my abusive older brother and told him that I would call the police on him if he ever laid hands on me again. I'm pleased to say that my forceful confrontation with him also made a lasting impression on my adopted mother, because she never laid a hand on me again either. Neither would stay in the same room with me after that.

I had lost my hope in God, but I had been indoctrinated into believing in him no matter what, so I foolishly became a Christian when I was 17. As the Bible states in Romans 10:9-13 about getting saved, I believed in my heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and I declared him Lord. I still remember the moment I prayed to be saved vividly because I felt absolutely nothing in my heart when I accepted Jesus. I didn't feel the peace, joy, or hope that I was expecting to feel after hearing other Christians talk about how they felt such peace and joy in their hearts when they accepted Jesus as their lord and savior. I wanted that more than anything else in life. These Christians said that their burdens were lifted and they felt hope again. All I felt at the time was the usual pain and sadness.

I can't emphasize just how deeply disappointed I was when I didn't feel my burdens lifted or feel hope in God again. I was completely overwhelmed with sadness and a feeling of hopelessness. I foolishly held on to my Christian faith for the next 30 years while willingly ignoring the nagging reminder in my heart that God didn't save me when I was growing up. I was a very devout Christian because I had been taught that the more devout I was to God, the more likely he was to answer my prayers. The Bible states, "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective" (James 5:16), and I sincerely believed Jesus' promise, "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son." "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" (John 14:13-14).

I renounced my Christian faith and belief in God about a year and a half ago. It was very difficult for me to let go of my belief in God because I had believed in him all my life and I had been a Christian for 30 years. As far as I'm concerned now, either the Christian God doesn't actually exist and I was a complete fool for believing he did, or the Christian God does exist and he's a malicious and sadistic monster who takes pleasure in watching me and the rest of humanity suffer. I'm an agnostic now, so I could go either way on this.

Good for you it's not easy to challenge your beliefs. Many people are far too stuck in myths to ever consider taking an honest look at their beliefs.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
it is a biological impossibility to not have a father.

There are plenty of fatherless children,

oh dear...

Moving on from that idiocy. What's the objective difference between a prayer not being answered, and no deity existing to answer it? All the jibes and obfuscation suggest you have no credible answer, and that you know it.

 

[Sheldon]

It makes an asumption; you could clear it up if you wanted to. I don't see why not.

Could you explain this assumption to me, as I have to admit when it was asked I saw none?

 

[Sheldon]

Well the original person asking the question said a no answer wasn’t good evidence of anything and I think so what but also shows that people seem to be ignorant of what prayer is in the first place, so that’s what I’m getting at.
Prayer is not a wishing well and not to treat God like a genie in a bottle. Like is there a secret formula

I think you have not understood the question. You said all prayers are answered, but sometimes the answer is wait or no.

I pointed out the obvious selection bias, then another poster asked you the difference between a prayer not answered and no deity to answer (paraphrased). The question speaks to the obvious selection bias in your statement. It makes no assumptions about the nature or motivation of prayers that I can see, but then you have been very reticent since the question was asked, preferring obfuscation and ad hominem.

 

[Sheldon]

He simply cannot understand the question. He has a natural defense mechanism that arises due to his fears.

That certainly is my impression, until I get something approaching an answer and or explanation to support his claim, something beyond obfuscation or ad hominem, that is the only inference I ca draw. You'd think anyone this emotionally invested in a belief would take any opportunity they could to demonstrate its validity.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That certainly is my impression, until I get something approaching an answer and or explanation to support his claim, something beyond obfuscation or ad hominem, that is the only inference I ca draw. You'd think anyone this emotionally invested in a belief would take any opportunity they could to demonstrate its validity.

You forgot the catch of the situation. He has a belief but knows that he can't support it. It appears that he has a severe fear of relapse if he accepts reality.

 

[Sheldon]

You forgot the catch of the situation. He has a belief but knows that he can't support it. It appears that he has a severe fear of relapse if he accepts reality.

Well to be fair, I did caution him about subjecting his beliefs to public scrutiny of the kind this public debate forum would invite, as he clearly believes his continued sobriety and abstinence is dependant on that belief.

Now whilst I have no doubt he could remain sober and drug free with the belief, since we know others do this, it's clear he does not, and thus there is an inherent risk. However it seems to be a risk he wants to take, despite my sincere misgivings.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I think you have not understood the question. You said all prayers are answered, but sometimes the answer is wait or no.

I pointed out the obvious selection bias, then another poster asked you the difference between a prayer not answered and no deity to answer (paraphrased). The question speaks to the obvious selection bias in your statement. It makes no assumptions about the nature or motivation of prayers that I can see, but then you have been very reticent since the question was asked, preferring obfuscation and ad hominem.

I may give you an answer next year or no I’m not answering your question. I’m not answering your specific question but I will tell you what the purpose of prayer is instead and give you something better but for today I have something else for you to do.
Did you get an answer to your request? Am I a real person or no person at all?
So the answer is a resounding “no” it’s not the same.

 

[Sheldon]

So the answer is a resounding “no” it’s not the same.

It wasn't my question, and you were asked to give an objective explanation of the difference, not to subjectively assert there is one, and your refusal to answer offers an obvious inference.

What is the objective difference between your claim for receiving a no to a prayer, and no deity existing to answer that prayer? I get that you perceive a difference, but that is just a subjective belief you hold, it doesn't help neutral observers see.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Well to be fair, I did caution him about subjecting his beliefs to public scrutiny of the kind this public debate forum would invite, as he clearly believes his continued sobriety and abstinence is dependant on that belief.

Now whilst I have no doubt he could remain sober and drug free with the belief, since we know others do this, it's clear he does not, and thus there is an inherent risk. However it seems to be a risk he wants to take, despite my sincere misgivings.

It’s nice to have 2 students in my Bible class, that’s how this is for me so keep asking questions.
See how prayer works now, you would be a great
person of prayer, see how you keep asking for an answer to your request? Relentless in prayer you would be!
Reminds me of Luke 11
I explained the difference but seems you don’t get it, are you talking to yourself on here or a person? God always has something instead when you get a no. With an idol there is no relationship or back and forth just silence.

 

[ElishaElijah]

oh dear...

Moving on from that idiocy. What's the objective difference between a prayer not being answered, and no deity existing to answer it? All the jibes and obfuscation suggest you have no credible answer, and that you know it.

Idiocy because you don’t understand my answer and you didn’t get the example? And everyone doesn’t have an earthly Dad and many are fatherless.I mean you did bring it up and now you’re wrong and you say idiocy…

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well the original person asking the question said a no answer wasn’t good evidence of anything and I think so what but also shows that people seem to be ignorant of what prayer is in the first place, so that’s what I’m getting at.
Prayer is not a wishing well and not to treat God like a genie in a bottle. Like is there a secret formula

There have always been prayers of thanksgiving, worship, etc., but IMO, this idea you're describing - where the prayerful must never actually ask anything of God - is a modern innovation in response to the fact that prayer just consistently, reliably fails.

It's also an example of a feature of a lot of modern religion: God must never, ever be put in a situation where God would have to do anything that a non-existent god wouldn't do.

 

[PearlSeeker]

What's the objective difference between a prayer not being answered, and no deity existing to answer it?

Both is like this:

 

[PearlSeeker]

The question is so ridiculous and it’s like asking when your Dad said no was it the same as not having a Dad?

No, it's not like that. My dad actually said "No. " or "Wait." And when I asked: "Where are you?" he said: "I am here." This is not the same as just ignoring me with no feedback.

 

[ElishaElijah]

There have always been prayers of thanksgiving, worship, etc., but IMO, this idea you're describing - where the prayerful must never actually ask anything of God - is a modern innovation in response to the fact that prayer just consistently, reliably fails.

It's also an example of a feature of a lot of modern religion: God must never, ever be put in a situation where God would have to do anything that a non-existent god wouldn't do.

Yes part of praying is thanking God for answering prayers, thanking Him for all He has done but not sure where you got the idea that you wouldn’t ask God to do the humanly impossible things that’s a foreign idea to me, especially when He is the only one who can do those things, whatever they may be at the time.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No, it's not like that. My dad actually said "No. " or "Wait." This is not the same as just ignoring me with no feedback.

That’s true and is that’s not what I communicated? So yes prayer is a back and forth conversation and God may say no to one thing and give you something else instead. He said no to a job and led me to start a business instead, this seemed impossible with 12 Kids, but it happened, its 17 years later now, but when we made the decision to do that it was funny how jobs opened up right after that.

 

[PearlSeeker]

That’s true and is that’s not what I communicated?

Then why is God silent?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Then why is God silent?

He isn’t