Bible, the foundational book of books?

[DNB]

Jorden Peterson presents an interesting idea about how the Bible (a sort of library on its own) was the first “book” which is really a foundation to other books.

I think he’s correct in his observation but I see the positive aspects of the Bible’s influence as well as the negative.

Thoughts?

I don't know too much about Jordan Peterson, but the little that I have seen of him, including the video that you posted, inclines me to regard him more as a philosopher or psychiatrist, rather than a theologian?
We all know how the canon was compiled, as he said, a collection of chronologically disparate books, that were amalgamated into a historical documentation of how God imparted His will to man, and the activity that ensued amongst God's chosen people (both Jews and Christians). So that the Bible is thus a guideline on how to receive God's approbation, one's salvation, and how to conduct oneself in regard to his fellow man.

As far as it being the first book, that's not my understanding - many ancient civilizations had literature that described their god's interventions with man, and the other divine beings within their pantheon. Stories of sin, redemption, global floods, messiahs, all appear in other ancient writings, and i do believe that many of them either predate or are contemporaneous to the Bible.

As far as the Bible's influence is concerned, it cannot be overstated, especially among most theistic groups. But, even atheists read it for either it's literary value, or it's moral impartations.
To me, the Bible is God's Word to man, it is the manual for life, written by over 40 different authors over the course of approximately 1,400 years, starting around 1,450 BC..
I believe that the majority of the authors were either inspired directly as far as the written oracles and prophecies are concerned, and others were inspired through God-given wisdom to allow them to comprehend God's word, and thus impart such divine mysteries and revelation in written form.

The only negative aspect that I see that can possibly be derived from such majestic and sublime literature, is that how its profundity can entirely elude and confound the simple and shallow minded - they are left to either distort or misconstrue, or undermine or dismiss both its veracity and its wisdom.

I do not believe that the Bible was the first form of either a book, library or literature - but, that's the point - the proud are confounded by the fact that it wasn't the first in chronology, and therefore find license to disregard it's authority and uniqueness.

 

[RestlessSoul]

To a very significant extent, you are correct, DS. Though, I would offer this in a bit of refutation: the philosophical works of ancient Greece or Rome spoke more to the highly-educated than to the masses of people.

So did The Bible, until the invention of the printing press.

The Bible is certainly one of the Foundation stones of western literature, sure. But others are equally important. There are as many classical references as Biblical, in the work of Shakespeare and Milton.

 

[Sundance]

So did The Bible, until the invention of the printing press.

The Bible is certainly one of the Foundation stones of western literature, sure. But others are equally important. There are as many classical references as Biblical, in the work of Shakespeare and Milton.

This first part, actually, is inaccurate.The printing press was crucial in merely the mass availability of the Bible, it did not radically change the target audience. The Bible, and its central message, was meant to be embraced by everyone. Ancient philosophical works were not so, being geared more towards those of greater educational capacity.

 

[RestlessSoul]

This first part, actually, is inaccurate.The printing press was crucial in merely the mass availability of the Bible, it did not radically change the target audience. The Bible, and its central message, was meant to be embraced by everyone. Ancient philosophical works were not so, being geared more towards those of greater educational capacity.

The printing press was considered to be such a subversive threat to the authority of Bishops and Monarchs, that it's availability was strictly licensed and controlled. This was partly because the authorities feared allowing the common man or woman access to Christ's revolutionary message, a message the authorities wanted to censure and control. William Tyndale was burned at the stake for having the temerity to translate the Bible into English, and distribute printed copies.

The printing press radically changed everything, by giving the audience direct access to a source of knowledge church and state had previously controlled. Events such as the Reformation, and the English Civil War, were in part driven by progressive thinkers having access to such radical egalitarian messages as
Matthew 18:20, and Matthew 20:25-27

 

[Kenny]

Problem is, we can show that Genesis comes from much older Mesopotamian sources. That fact is “what is.” Your statement is a belief unfounded in fact.

And, as I see it, that is the question. Which is the hen and which is the egg. Oral tradition all come from an original source. When it was written may vary and even how it was written may vary. But the original source is the same.

To delegate that it came from a Mesopotamian source gives it the hue that Genesis is borrowed. But that is simply an opinion from people.

I simply believe, because of archaeological reality, that when God said, "Write this down"... it was God who was giving the truth of the "original" while others simply continued with the telephone line analogy.

 

[sojourner]

And, as I see it, that is the question. Which is the hen and which is the egg. Oral tradition all come from an original source. When it was written may vary and even how it was written may vary. But the original source is the same.

To delegate that it came from a Mesopotamian source gives it the hue that Genesis is borrowed. But that is simply an opinion from people.

I simply believe, because of archaeological reality, that when God said, "Write this down"... it was God who was giving the truth of the "original" while others simply continued with the telephone line analogy.

But Ken, we have proof of these stories predating Hebraic culture.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Jorden Peterson presents an interesting idea about how the Bible (a sort of library on its own) was the first “book” which is really a foundation to other books.

I think he’s correct in his observation but I see the positive aspects of the Bible’s influence as well as the negative.

Thoughts?

I'm not going to watch the video, but you're right in the sense that the Bible seems to be the first major work to be put in codex format - i.e. paper sheets bound together by sewing them along one edge (as opposed to scrolls and other systems in use at the time).

This was a technical advancement, but it had impacts on writing styles. For one thing, it meant that a single volume could now hold much more writing than a scroll could.

A similar advancement happened with movies about a century ago: the Latham Loop. This was the mechanical system in movie projectors that allowed the industry to go from short films that were only a few minutes to feature-length films.*

... and the first major film to take advantage of this new technology, i.e. the first major feature-length film? Birth of a Nation, the film credited with reviving the Ku Klux Klan in the early 20th Century.

I'd say that personally, I see the legacy of both these pioneering works - the Bible and Birth of a Nation - in a similar light: problematic expressions that have had a disproportionate impact on world culture.

*early projectors could only handle a few minutes of footage per reel, since the stuttering motion of the mechanism would move the film in rapid jerks. This would put tremendous strain on the film if the reel had much inertia, which would cause causing the film to snap.

Latham's invention was a mechanical system that fed the film into the projector smoothly and continuously while still doing the "stuttering" motion right at the lens that a projector relies on to project a moving image.

Suddenly, there was no limit on film reel size (other than what could be accommodated in the desired space and making sure the reel wasn't too heavy for a person to lift), so a 2-hour movie could be done with only 3 or 4 reel changes insteads of dozens under the old system (which is why nobody was doing 2-hour movies).

 

[Kenny]

But Ken, we have proof of these stories predating Hebraic culture.

I think you didn't read what I said or maybe I said it to someone else. Hebraic culture started with Abraham, the first Hebrew, after other religions had started... but the message I am talking about began way before that. Before Noah and before Enoch.

 

[sojourner]

I think you didn't read what I said or maybe I said it to someone else. Hebraic culture started with Abraham, the first Hebrew, after other religions had started... but the message I am talking about began way before that. Before Noah and before Enoch.

And that message came from other cultures. The Hebraic culture began in the Iron Age. But these stories were circulating in other cultures long before then.

 

[Kenny]

And that message came from other cultures. The Hebraic culture began in the Iron Age. But these stories were circulating in other cultures long before then.

No... Abraham's Hebraic faith was a departure the culture of his time.

 

[metis]

But to counter Babylonian narrative? Genesis was... WAAAAY before a Babylonian narrative if I am not mistaken... but you have lived way before me and may remember.

Parts of the Babylonian flood narrative go back to 2000 bce, which was long before Genesis was written, plus we know that at least some in eretz Israel would be aware of it since a tablet of that narrative was found in northern Israel, although I can't recall its date.

And Sam who? Sam O say do I see? What culture doe he come from

See how uncultured you are!!! They are Indian [Asian] fried dumplings stuffed with potato & peas, although they can be made differently. Then one often puts chutney on them, and I prefer the coriander chutney.

Thanks for the blessing my friend.

Your more than welcome.

 

[metis]

Meat or veg samosas? I’m a sucker for lamb myself, trying to cut down on meat but the veggie ones can be a bit dry.

I always get vegetable ones. Mine never get dry as I down them in coriander chutney.

 

[Kooky]

I don't know too much about Jordan Peterson, but the little that I have seen of him, including the video that you posted, inclines me to regard him more as a philosopher or psychiatrist, rather than a theologian?

He is none of those things, actually. Peterson is a psychologist and (I surmise, based on my understanding of his writings) Jungian psychoanalysis who has found his calling as a right-wing speaker and self-help guru.

 

[Kooky]

Before Noah

You mean Upnapishtim?

 

[Kenny]

You mean Upnapishtim?

YES! GINGO! Upnapishtim got it from the actual story of Noah!

 

[DNB]

He is none of those things, actually. Peterson is a psychologist and (I surmise, based on my understanding of his writings) Jungian psychoanalysis who has found his calling as a right-wing speaker and self-help guru.

Ok, ..I actually meant psychologist (to be more generic about it, as I was trying to avoid precision).
Thank you for the insights! You underscored my suspicions - what you added as far as his claim-to-fame is concerned, concurs with my sub-conscious perception of him - more talk and analysis, rather than conclusions and application. And, definitely not theological.

 

[Kooky]

YES! GINGO! Upnapishtim got it from the actual story of Noah!

You mean, the actual story of Upnapishtim.

 

[Kooky]

To a very significant extent, you are correct, DS. Though, I would offer this in a bit of refutation: the philosophical works of ancient Greece or Rome spoke more to the highly-educated than to the masses of people.

The Bible didn't speak to the masses of people, because the masses of people couldn't read.

It was the priests of the Christian Churches who spoke to the masses of people.

 

[Kenny]

You mean, the actual story of Upnapishtim.

They sure have you hook, line and sinker.

 

[sayak83]

Yes, but the message began "In the beginning" and the flood predates all beginnings of today's religions. IMO

Enuma Elish also says in the beginning.
The fact is the Babylonian creation myths were composed at least 1500 years before OT ones and were very well known in the Middle Eastern world. Hence the OT flood narrative is a derivative tradition.