Bible Prophecy as Evidence of a bible writers trustworthiness

[MyM]

Which is correct?

Did Jesus pre-exist in heaven with God, create the material universe (in the role of the gnostic demiurge), and come to earth (by inference born of Jewish parents descended from David) to mediate between God and man? Paul and the author of John say so.

Was Jesus instead an ordinary Jew born of ordinary Jewish parents not descended from David, who following his baptism, was adopted by God as [his] son on the model of Psalm 2:7 (affirmed Acts 13:33)? The author of Mark says so.

Was Jesus the genetic son of God, through divine insemination of a virgin? The authors of Matthew and of Luke say so (though in their case Jesus has God's Y-chromosome and thus is only a descendant of David if God is).

Or does Jesus in fact exist in the NT in various versions?

In Islam, we believe Jesus (Eesa alayhi salaam) on him peace, was a mighty messenger of God...he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

[MyM]

The Bible, and the Holy Spirit, are my evidence of God.

Like all secular humanists, you choose to overlook the evidence for God that stares you in the face. It's no wonder that the Psalmist said, 'The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.' [Psalm 14:1]

The Bible was revealed to prophets who belonged to the tribes of lsrael. The books of scripture contain different forms of writing, including historical narrative, a form that is open to investigation.

When the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus (1st century), wrote 'Antiquities of the Jews' he drew on Biblical material. It was believed to be accurate and reliable.

Today, new approaches and technologies allow historians and archaeologists greater access to evidence from the past. The discoveries being made provide support for the Biblical narrative.

Jews and Christians exist. Both have an origin in time, recorded by the Bible.

As a secular humanist, can you provide a coherent history of the Jew and Christian?

Then again, you can't prove it's from God. The Bible has unknown authors and in that you can't prove it was God. Too many contradictions to say it from God God is infallible so his work shall be as well

 

[Redemptionsong]

Then again, you can't prove it's from God. The Bible has unknown authors and in that you can't prove it was God. Too many contradictions to say it from God God is infallible so his work shall be as well

Proof is not necessary. If it was possible to prove God's existence by reason alone then there would be no need for faith. And, as the scriptures (OT and NT) tell us, a person is justified by faith.

I believe the Bible to be a coherent and consistent scripture, and l'm not convinced by modern revisionism!

If you believe you know of contradictions then l'd like to hear about them!

 

[ppp]

Proof is not necessary. If it was possible to prove God's existence by reason alone then there would be no need for faith. And, as the scriptures (OT and NT) tell us, a person is justified by faith.

I believe the Bible to be a coherent and consistent scripture, and l'm not convinced by modern revisionism!

If you believe you know of contradictions then l'd like to hear about them!

No need for a contradiction. There is simply no reason to believe any of the authors' claims that there is a god, or that any of them were capable of knowing such.

 

[MyM]

Proof is not necessary. If it was possible to prove God's existence by reason alone then there would be no need for faith. And, as the scriptures (OT and NT) tell us, a person is justified by faith.

I believe the Bible to be a coherent and consistent scripture, and l'm not convinced by modern revisionism!

If you believe you know of contradictions then l'd like to hear about them!

Trust me, there are over a hundred.

The bible, isn't that coherent. There are passages that just cannot be attributed to God. Like the sexual chapters...how can you attribute those to God? The bible has many contradictions also plagiarism.


1. "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: Behold, a VIRGIN shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14 - AV)
The indispensable "VIRGIN" in the above verse has now been replaced in the RSV with the phrase "a young woman," which is the correct translation of the Hebrew word almah. Almah is the word which has occurred all along in the Hebrew text and NOT bethulah which means VIRGIN.
Christians are saying "virgin" and it isn't even the correct translation.

Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel? (a) God did (2 Samuel 24:1) (b) Satan did (1 Chronicles 21:1).


Isaiah 37
2 Kings 19
word for word, two different authors, centuries after each other... plagiarism

There are much more in the Bible, these are just 3

 

[Redemptionsong]

No need for a contradiction. There is simply no reason to believe any of the authors' claims that there is a god, or that any of them were capable of knowing such.

No need? I beg to differ.

We clearly live in two different universes. I believe mine was created, and has a purpose determined by God. Yours, l understand, was accidental, and offers no purpose, or hope, beyond what you give it.

True?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

An analogy is, the US government can actually appoint CNN or Fox News as its chosen media to make announcements for the government. CNN will examine the credibility and legitimacy of the spokesman who gave out the announcements. That's how it works.

The Bible reads more like they picked Fox “we should be legally able to lie” News

 

[Redemptionsong]

Trust me, there are over a hundred.

The bible, isn't that coherent. There are passages that just cannot be attributed to God. Like the sexual chapters...how can you attribute those to God? The bible has many contradictions also plagiarism.


1. "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: Behold, a VIRGIN shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14 - AV)
The indispensable "VIRGIN" in the above verse has now been replaced in the RSV with the phrase "a young woman," which is the correct translation of the Hebrew word almah. Almah is the word which has occurred all along in the Hebrew text and NOT bethulah which means VIRGIN.
Christians are saying "virgin" and it isn't even the correct translation.

Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel? (a) God did (2 Samuel 24:1) (b) Satan did (1 Chronicles 21:1).


Isaiah 37
2 Kings 19
word for word, two different authors, centuries after each other... plagiarism

There are much more in the Bible, these are just 3

Once again, when the accusations are made plain, and displayed for all to see, it soon becomes evident that the contradictions do not exist.

Let's look at the three examples you have chosen to use.

1. Isaiah 7:14. The English translation of 'almah' in the KJV is 'a virgin' when, in Hebrew, the word is more accurately translated as 'a young woman'. Correct. Is this a liberty taken by translators, or a mistake in the word of God as received by the prophet Isaiah? Clearly, the former.

Why, one might ask, did the translators opt for 'a virgin' and not 'a young woman'? Possibly because they were influenced by their knowledge that Mary was a virgin when she conceived, but it could also have been based on a knowledge of Deuteronomy 22:13-21, which states that a bride should demonstrate proof of her virginity by exhibiting a blood-stained cloth.

So, when we analyse the reasons for the translation opted for in the KJV, we see that 'a virgin' is really the equivalent to 'a young woman', since every young woman would have been expected to demonstrate virginity as a bride.

2. David counting the fighting men.
This is nicely explained in the notes of the JPS Tanakh 1999. 'It is unknown what caused God's anger. In order to punish Israel He incites David to number the people, which raises the theological problem of God inciting to sin. The author of 1 Chronicles 21:1 solves the propblem by replacing God with Satan (a relatively late concept).
Radak explains that inciting does not mean commanding, but only putting the idea in David's mind; therefore it remained David's decision whether actually to carry the census out. According to ancient belief counting people exposes them to misfortune'.

3. Plagiarism. Using, or quoting prophecy, occurs throughout the Bible, and is God's way of linking one book to another, and tying one prophet to another. This is important because the authority of a prophet should be recognised by other prophets. [Ask yourself, did Muhammad claim himself to be a prophet, or do other prophets witness to him? If so, which ones?]

So, the three examples you have supplied do not amount to contradictions. Maybe you could find just one, from amongst the many you claim exist, that is clearly a contradiction!

What I would say, in response to this claim that the Bible contains error, is that there are clear differences between the Qur'an and the books of the Bible. Had the Qur'an been presented as an additional book for inclusion in the canon of scripture, it would have been rejected immediately, so great are the theological differences.

Here's a question for you to consider. According to Islam, are all men sinful?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Yes they did. And those people saw the evidence of truth and made the commitment to follow moses. at least 3 million of them...the entire nation saw it and responded in faith.

What that says to us, who did not see the miracles first hand, is that it was real.

Did you walk on the moon with Neil Armstrong? No. But you believe it because you saw the pictures right? but pictures can be faked, even recorded images can be faked. You weren't there when they landed on the moon yet im sure you believe they did. NASA told you they landed, NASA showed you pictures, NASA explained the process. You believe NASA don't you?

So likewise, we dont have to be there to actually see it for ourselves. We can believe the eyewitness testimony of those who were directly involved and who did see it for themselves.





Paul was preaching that Jesus was the Messiah. Not too many jews today like to hear that so of course they will try to discredit paul.

But Pauls explanation of the hebrew scriptures is sound. Even Moses said a new prophet would come and then the Jews would have to 'listen to him and do whatever he tells you' The Jews reject Jesus teachings and wont do as he tells them...they want to keep following the law of Moses so of course they will claim Paul is out of whack.


Pauls resurrected a young man who fell out of a window and died.
Acts 20:On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to have a meal, Paul began addressing them, as he was going to depart the next day; and he prolonged his speech until midnight. 8 So there were quite a few lamps in the upper room where we were gathered together. 9 Seated at the window, a young man named Euʹty·chus sank into a deep sleep while Paul kept talking, and overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third story and was picked up dead. 10 But Paul went downstairs, threw himself on him and embraced him,+ and said: “Stop making a commotion, for he is alive.”+ 11 He then went upstairs and began the meal and ate. He continued conversing for quite a while, until daybreak, and then he departed. 12 So they took the boy away alive and were comforted beyond measure.

Acts was written by the apostle Luke.

Lesson: don’t sit on a ledge while listening to Paul because you’ll be bored to death

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

You wrote:

"There are also plenty of completely unsupported historical events and characters, some deeply important to the Bible's narrative, like the Exodus from Egypt for which we have evidence of absence, the character of Moses and the conquest of Canaan, most famous of which the fall of Jericho which is completely invented too."


For one who is godless, archeological evidence and stories of the Bible always look like " unsupported historical events and characters" and "completely invented."


Why? Because such people expected from historians, archeologists, and the Bible, to provide them with all listed documents sealed with stamp of authority, personal signatures, and photographic and video evidence, otherwise they will never believe it.


Such resistance and demands done by many people who want to discredit the truth, facts, and evidence, because there is no truth in the Bible, there is no GOD.


Above all, if the Bible is the WORD of GOD, it must be taken by FAITH, supported by evidence or not, means believe to every Word written in it.


Otherwise the Bible will be like another book of literature.


This is why I said such a thing, sir.

But what happens when theists would rather trust God than the Bible?

 

[Sheldon]

Wait, are you saying you don’t believe Jesus Christ is a real person?

Do you see me claiming that anywhere in that post? I don't know if he was or not, there is some evidence to support the claim he was an historical person, and that has no relevance to your as yet unevidenced claims from the bible for prophesy, and you still have not explained how a prophesy would represent evidence for any deity?

 

[Sheldon]

The Bible, and the Holy Spirit, are my evidence of God.

Great, now can you demonstrate anything approaching objective evidence?

Like all secular humanists, you choose to overlook the evidence for God that stares you in the face.

That is a pretty obvious no true Scotsman fallacy.

It's no wonder that the Psalmist said, 'The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.' [Psalm 14:1]

Well it would wouldn't it, dear oh dear.

The Bible was revealed to prophets who belonged to the tribes of lsrael. The books of scripture contain different forms of writing, including historical narrative, a form that is open to investigation.

All you have done is repeat the claim, please demonstrate some objective evidence for a fulfilled prophesy. Also would you explain to me how a hypothetical accurate prediction of a future event, is evidence for any deity?

When the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus (1st century), wrote 'Antiquities of the Jews' he drew on Biblical material. It was believed to be accurate and reliable.

The Harry Potter novels have steam trains and schools in them, this does not make wizardry real.

Today, new approaches and technologies allow historians and archaeologists greater access to evidence from the past. The discoveries being made provide support for the Biblical narrative.

I am dubious, especially since all you have done is make a bare unevidenced claim. Also the narrative can contain things that are true, but this doesn't necessarily evidence any deity. The Spider Man film is set in New York, it is a real city, so the narrative has a fact in it, that doesn't make Spider Man real.

Jews and Christians exist. Both have an origin in time, recorded by the Bible.

Trekkies exist, and have a point of origin in time, this does not make Star Trek real.

As a secular humanist, can you provide a coherent history of the Jew and Christian?

Coherent to whom?

 

[Sheldon]

Trust me, there are over a hundred.

The bible, isn't that coherent. There are passages that just cannot be attributed to God. Like the sexual chapters...how can you attribute those to God? The bible has many contradictions also plagiarism.


1. "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: Behold, a VIRGIN shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14 - AV)
The indispensable "VIRGIN" in the above verse has now been replaced in the RSV with the phrase "a young woman," which is the correct translation of the Hebrew word almah. Almah is the word which has occurred all along in the Hebrew text and NOT bethulah which means VIRGIN.
Christians are saying "virgin" and it isn't even the correct translation.

Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel? (a) God did (2 Samuel 24:1) (b) Satan did (1 Chronicles 21:1).


Isaiah 37
2 Kings 19
word for word, two different authors, centuries after each other... plagiarism

There are much more in the Bible, these are just 3

Contradictions in the Qur’an

 

[MyM]

Once again, when the accusations are made plain, and displayed for all to see, it soon becomes evident that the contradictions do not exist.

Let's look at the three examples you have chosen to use.

1. Isaiah 7:14. The English translation of 'almah' in the KJV is 'a virgin' when, in Hebrew, the word is more accurately translated as 'a young woman'. Correct. Is this a liberty taken by translators, or a mistake in the word of God as received by the prophet Isaiah? Clearly, the former.

Why, one might ask, did the translators opt for 'a virgin' and not 'a young woman'? Possibly because they were influenced by their knowledge that Mary was a virgin when she conceived, but it could also have been based on a knowledge of Deuteronomy 22:13-21, which states that a bride should demonstrate proof of her virginity by exhibiting a blood-stained cloth.

So, when we analyse the reasons for the translation opted for in the KJV, we see that 'a virgin' is really the equivalent to 'a young woman', since every young woman would have been expected to demonstrate virginity as a bride.

2. David counting the fighting men.
This is nicely explained in the notes of the JPS Tanakh 1999. 'It is unknown what caused God's anger. In order to punish Israel He incites David to number the people, which raises the theological problem of God inciting to sin. The author of 1 Chronicles 21:1 solves the propblem by replacing God with Satan (a relatively late concept).
Radak explains that inciting does not mean commanding, but only putting the idea in David's mind; therefore it remained David's decision whether actually to carry the census out. According to ancient belief counting people exposes them to misfortune'.

3. Plagiarism. Using, or quoting prophecy, occurs throughout the Bible, and is God's way of linking one book to another, and tying one prophet to another. This is important because the authority of a prophet should be recognised by other prophets. [Ask yourself, did Muhammad claim himself to be a prophet, or do other prophets witness to him? If so, which ones?]

So, the three examples you have supplied do not amount to contradictions. Maybe you could find just one, from amongst the many you claim exist, that is clearly a contradiction!

What I would say, in response to this claim that the Bible contains error, is that there are clear differences between the Qur'an and the books of the Bible. Had the Qur'an been presented as an additional book for inclusion in the canon of scripture, it would have been rejected immediately, so great are the theological differences.

Here's a question for you to consider. According to Islam, are all men sinful?

The fact that the Quran and the Bible contain differences, you must understand that the Quran doesn't contain contradictions whereas the Bible does. The fact that the Quran is endorsed by God himself, the Bible does not have that claim. The fact that the Quran is proven over 1400 years still the same, the Bible doesn't even know who wrote some of the books and they attribute that to God.

You said, "Possibly" even that you cannot be sure of. There is no excuse as to change words around. This is what is said in the Quran...

“Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands” [al-Baqarah 2:79]
Allah warns those who distort the Book and change laws, those who betrayed the trust of knowledge and religion, with loss, punishment and doom on the Day of Resurrection. They distorted the Book by adding and subtracting, and they said that this was from Allah, lying and fabricating.

I beg to differ, if they are there in the Bible, and it is clearly shown as a contradiction, no matter what you decide, it is still a contradiction. You can give your OPINIONS but they will not take away the contradictions.

In Islam, mankind commit sins but we do not believe that men is born IN sin. Would be horrible to punish an innocent person. Jesus didn't say it nor did God tell his messengers to preach it. Even in the Bible you can disprove it. You don't need a human sacrifice to die for you...who are you to say you deserve something like that? God is above such things. He can just say BE and created any in your place.

 

[MyM]

Contradictions in the Qur’an

Nice try

“Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction”
an-Nisa’ 4:82

“Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts?”
Muhammad 47:24


you can continue to say what you wish...if you are truthful, make a chapter like the Quran, I dare you...as a matter of fact, God challenges you.

 

[ppp]

No need? I beg to differ.

I know.

We clearly live in two different universes.

I'll take this as poetic license.

Yours, l understand, was accidental, and offers no purpose, or hope, beyond what you give it.

If by "accidental" you mean natural and without the influence of an intelligent agent, I have no idea.

What I do know is that whether the universe is natural or an artifact, that no one has presented any evidence that they know or are capable of knowing that there is a creator; let alone that they have any clue as to its (or their) purpose. IOW, the purpose and hope that people see in the universe is of their own creation, whether there is a creator, many creators, or none.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Do you see me claiming that anywhere in that post? I don't know if he was or not, there is some evidence to support the claim he was an historical person, and that has no relevance to your as yet unevidenced claims from the bible for prophesy, and you still have not explained how a prophesy would represent evidence for any deity?

Sure I did, just not to your satisfaction. Which doesn’t bother me, just to prove that, let me know what proof you would accept exactly?

 

[alex2165]

But what happens when theists would rather trust God than the Bible?

You are no longer theist.

 

[ppp]

You are no longer theist.

They are still a theist. A theist is someone who believes that a god exists.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

So a subjective opinion then, as opposed to any objective evidence.

Again an unevidenced subjective opinion, there is no objective evidence to support those claims.

In the interests of accuracy, this post is in response to viole. To what she wrote.
So, yes, since it’s the Bible’s words that are in dispute....the Bible defines what is acceptable behavior for Christians — to love one another (John 13:34-35), even to love their enemy (Matthew 5:44) — and what is not acceptable behavior. - James 4:4; 1 John 2:15.
The evidence is clear...
Since it’s inception, the majority of Christendom has failed where it really matters; they’ve joined the world in its conflicts & have been exposed for their hypocrisy.

Oh no thanks are really necessarily, this is a debate forum.

Again, this post is in response to viole. To what she wrote.

I hope my observations are given some critical but objective scrutiny.

They are. You’ve raised some good points.

And I hope mine are given the same consideration.

While you're here, I did ask why you believe a fulfilled prophesy represents any evidence for any deity?

Can humans do that? Consistently? If not, then who else?

Your other questions -- those 3 you posted earlier in post #100 — all referred to “the prediction”, or “the event.” As if.the Bible only had one. But the Bible contains many prophecies. And the vast majority have come true.....but there are still some being fulfilled globally, in our day.

A very good point you raised was, ‘Why is the prediction not clear?’
Well, the Bible was written to be deeply studied. There are accurate answers, but you have to dig for them. I mean, even in Genesis 1, at the very beginning, the Bible’s not clear even as to the Creative Days! It makes it seem like they’re 24 hours, but then Jehovah God tells Adam, ‘Dont eat from the tree, for in the day you do, you’ll die.’ Adam died centuries later.
And God’s use of poetic language in His Word, makes it difficult & easy to twist.

Jesus himself said that for some people, the meaning would be ‘hidden.’ Only his Father, Jehovah, could reveal its meaning (Luke 10:21)
The Bible itself said it is hard to understand....we need Jehovah’s — Jesus’ Father’s — help. If it was intended to be clear cut, there’d be no need.


(BTW, Nostradamus made a few seemingly fulfilled predictions, how did he do that? I’ve got a POV on that which only about 8 million others share....IOW, quite a few but not the majority. I’ll be glad to share it with you, if you’d like.

On a related topic: being an atheist, how do you explain the many members on here who’ve had and continue to have two-way conversations with their ‘spirit guides’ or their invisible god entities?
Are they all ‘faking’ it? Or are these people all delusional to you?

Do you think a highly respected and rational-thinker like Sir Winston Churchill was delusional? Lincoln's ghost - Wikipedia)