Bible Prophecy as Evidence of a bible writers trustworthiness

[Sheldon]

When I became a teenager, I stopped considering what is called ‘mainstream christian belief’ accurately reflected what Jesus taught.

So a subjective opinion then, as opposed to any objective evidence.

Jesus’ way of life was loving & frugal; Christendom has been neither of those things: supporting wars and amassing wealth has been their record.

Again an unevidenced subjective opinion, there is no objective evidence to support those claims.

Thanks for your reply.

Oh no thanks are really necessarily, this is a debate forum. I hope my observations are given some critical but objective scrutiny.

While you're here, I did ask why you believe a fulfilled prophesy represents any evidence for any deity?

 

[Bree]

Are you interested in having an honest discussion? Your tactics in your replies to me so far suggest you aren't.

You dont agree that a moon landing can be faked? Or you dont like my comparison?

 

[Sheldon]

The challenge when reading the scriptures, or hearing a preacher, is determining whether the message is true.

That would be true of any claim, religious or otherwise.

True prophecy, the forthtelling of God's word, contains foretelling of events and the revealing of truths otherwise hidden from human knowledge.

UNEVIDENCED CLAIM...

Moses, for example, was not present at the beginning of creation, or at the dawn of human existence, yet his prophecies (contained in the Torah) cover a period of time before such knowledge was available.

You are placing your wheezy old pony behind your cart, start by demonstrating objective evidence that Moses existed at all. Making claims about the thing you're arguing for, in an argument for it, is called a begging the question fallacy, look it up.

If someone is to dismiss the Bible as a false or 'dud' prophecy, it is necessary to demonstrate contradiction, error and inconsistency in the message.

That's called an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, again look it up.

It is also necessary to demonstrate that for 1500 years a plot was hatched, by forty or more writers, to deceive humanity.

No it isn't, again this is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

There is yet further evidence of God's hand in the Bible when it comes to belief in Jesus as Lord.

There can't be further evidence, until you present some.

The promise that Jesus made to his followers was that they would receive the Holy Spirit.

That's a bare unevidenced claim.

Unlike any personal and solely subjective experience that cannot be verified, this first happened to 120 disciples at one time (Pentecost), and has been experienced by believers across the globe ever since.

So it's not a bare claim because you say so, snd then use an argumentum ad populum fallacy? Seriously?

There is an objectivity to the Holy Spirit that elevates it above subjective understanding.

Another bare unevidenced claim.

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit, with accompanying fruit and power, is evidence that God's word can be trusted.

Another bare unevidenced claim.

As Paul asked, 'Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?'

This would be the Paul that never met Jesus, and whose opinions are pure hearsay after the fact?

 

[Sheldon]

I've spoken with Jews who seem to think this passage is about Israel.
And then I've spoken with some Christians who think it's talking about Jesus.

Obviously because it is a subjective claim, of unknown authorship, that people are subjectively interpreting to mean what they want it to, and then citing an occurrence they claim has occurred exactly as "predicted". That bit is hilarious enough, but the idea this can only represent divine intervention and prophesy, is just too ironic.

 

[Sheldon]

1. I don’t see Isaiah 53 as vague,
2. I don’t see any nation or person other than Jesus Christ who fulfilled this prophecy.
3. This is just one of many prophecies.

I see 3 separate claims, I see not even a pretence of any objective evidence.

 

[Sheldon]

Are you seriously trying to claim that respect and esteem for contemporaneous religious writings indicates that the religious writing is true?

Are you seriously imagining such bias isn't manifest, in almost every unevidenced theistic claim for prophesy, and miracles?

Sorry, I know you're not, but I had to throw that left hook.

Gawd, will shewerely purrrr-nish mey.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I see 3 separate claims, I see not even a pretence of any objective evidence.

You said you have no beliefs on the Isaiah 53 passage so by default you’ll have to sit this one out. Also you’ll have to accept that it is talking about Jesus Christ until you can form your own opinion .

 

[Sheldon]

Only 80 to 90 years ago, the Holocaust occurred. But there are some already, who deny it even happened.

There are also many who deny that it was motivated by centuries of virulent Christian antisemitism. I think Voltaire had a point when he said that "Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Now in 1939 a census showed that over 94% of Germans identified as Christians. Hitler, though he was power mad and so distrusted the influence of the established churches, was also a catholic Christian. Anyone entering the German SS, had to be a Christian, it was an essential requirement. They swore their oath to Hitler "before god".

The Holocaust cannot be otherwise than a religious persecution, since Jews are a religious demographic, the rest is of course smoke and mirrors.

 

[Sheldon]

You can’t see? You say it’s vague, not everyone agrees, could be anyone, not specific.

Nonetheless it suitably vague, and you still have not explained why a fulfilled prophesy is evidence for any deity?

Well He was alive about 2000 years ago and we can read the testimony of witnesses, He was very specific, still the disciples didn’t understand at first.

I don;t believe your unevidenced claim, please demonstrate some objective evidence to support it.

I gave you an example how from Moses and Prophets spoke of Jesus.

You made a bare claim, nothing else.

You say Isaiah 53 can be anyone, well prove your comment.

No you prove it cannot possibly be anyone else, and even then, your entire work is all before you, as all you would have is an unexplained event, but you don't even have that, as it clearly is not a specific and unequivocal claim. Do Jews accept your subjective interpretation to mean the person you claim is Jesus? Well well....so not objective evidence at all then, just subjective opinion, like me claiming that red is the best colour..

 

[Sheldon]

The coming of Jesus, dying for the sin of the world, His Return, The End of the Age, The New Heaven and Earth. All that has taken around 6 thousand years so far and counting. It is amazing, God has progressively revealed these things to His people, what’s more amazing is that they are hidden from a lot of people yet obvious to believers.

You keep repeating the bare claim, yet have not presented any objective evidence to support it?

 

[Sheldon]

You dont agree that a moon landing can be faked?

To be honest such a massive and longstanding deception seems unlikely if its claims can be falsified. Didn't the astronauts leave reflective mirrors on the moon to help us measure its distance from the earth, using lasers?

"Bouncing lasers off mirrors on the lunar surface is an old trick. Astronauts walking on the moon first left reflectors behind in 1969. And since then, researchers have bounced lasers off those reflectors to make precise measurements of the distance between the moon and Earth, using the speed of light and the time it takes for the laser beam to return to Earth."

 

[Sheldon]

You said you have no beliefs on the Isaiah 53 passage so by default you’ll have to sit this one out.

No I don't. I don't think you understand debate. I also note your three unevidenced claims remain so, and your evasion is manifest on that front, quelle surprise.

Also you’ll have to accept that it is talking about Jesus Christ until you can form your own opinion .

No I don't, this is the very definition of an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, and therefore irrational, again look it up. It is entirely incumbent on you to demonstrate sufficient (objective) evidence for your claim, it is irrational to imply it has any credence until someone offers contrary evidence. I believe I explained this already? It's a basic principle of logic, though of course you are free to make irrational claims, but I am also free to point out they are irrational.

 

[Bree]

You keep repeating the bare claim, yet have not presented any objective evidence to support it?

the prophecy of Jesus about the destruction of Jerusalem was very detailed by him.
His prophecy stated

Luke 19:43 Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification of pointed stakes and will encircle you and besiege you* from every side

21: “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies,+ then know that the desolating of her has drawn near.+ 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains,+ let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, 22 because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled

The Romans encircled the city with a wall to cut off supplies to the city completely and thereby drive the Jews to starvation.
But Jesus isnt the only one who foretold the destruction of Jerusalem. The prophet Daniel also recorded a prophecy about its destruction during the days of the coming Messiah .... i've copied and pasted a article from the WT which explains that prophecy:

Watchtower Article
"Notice at Matthew 24:15 that Jesus referred to what was written in the book of Daniel. In Daniel chapter 9 of that book is a prophecy that foretold the coming of Messiah and the judgment that would be executed on the Jewish nation for rejecting him. The latter part of Daniel 9 verse 27 says: “And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation.” Early Jewish tradition applied that part of Daniel’s prophecy to the profaning of Jehovah’s temple in Jerusalem by Antiochus IV in the second century B.C.E. But Jesus cautioned: “Let the reader use discernment.” The desecration of the temple by Antiochus IV, though certainly disgusting, did not result in desolation—of Jerusalem, of the temple, or of the Jewish nation. So Jesus was evidently cautioning his hearers that fulfillment of this was not in the past but was yet future.

5 What was “the disgusting thing” for which they were to be on the lookout? It is noteworthy that Matthew’s account says: “When you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation . . . standing in a holy place.” However, the parallel account at Luke 21:20 reads: “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near.” In 66 C.E., Christians living in Jerusalem did see what Jesus had foretold. A series of incidents involving conflict between the Jews and Roman officials led to Jerusalem’s becoming a hotbed of rebellion against Rome. As a result, violence flared up throughout Judea, Samaria, Galilee, the Decapolis, and Phoenicia, north into Syria, and south into Egypt. In order to restore a measure of peace to that part of the Roman Empire, Cestius Gallus rushed military forces from Syria to Jerusalem, which the Jews spoke of as their “holy city.”—Nehemiah 11:1; Isaiah 52:1.

6 It was customary for the Roman legions to carry standards, or ensigns, which they viewed as sacred but which the Jews viewed as idolatrous. Interestingly, the Hebrew word translated “disgusting thing” in the book of Daniel is used principally of idols and idolatry.* (Deuteronomy 29:17) In spite of resistance by the Jews, the Roman forces bearing their idolatrous ensigns penetrated into Jerusalem in November of 66 C.E. and then started to undermine the temple wall on the north. There was no doubt about it—a “disgusting thing” that could cause complete desolation to Jerusalem was “standing in a holy place”! But how could anyone flee?

 

[ElishaElijah]

No I don't. I don't think you understand debate. I also note your three unevidenced claims remain so, and your evasion is manifest on that front, quelle surprise.



No I don't, this is the very definition of an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, and therefore irrational, again look it up. It is entirely incumbent on you to demonstrate sufficient (objective) evidence for your claim, it is irrational to imply it has any credence until someone offers contrary evidence. I believe I explained this already? It's a basic principle of logic, though of course you are free to make irrational claims, but I am also free to point out they are irrational.

The Isaiah 53 prophesy is the claim that Jesus Christ fulfilled, yes. Thank-you very much. The rest of your talking is just that, smoke and mirror. I presented the Scriptural testimony of for example the Ethiopian who was asking who Isaiah 53 was talking about, Philip showed him how Jesus did.
You will have to form you own beliefs about it but to this point you have none, why continue?
Who else in history is Isaiah 53 talking about? Go ahead present your case. I will wait.

 

[Sheldon]

the prophecy of Jesus about the destruction of Jerusalem was very detailed by him.
His prophecy stated

Luke 19:43 Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification of pointed stakes and will encircle you and besiege you* from every side

21: “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies,+ then know that the desolating of her has drawn near.+ 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains,+ let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, 22 because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled

The Romans encircled the city with a wall to cut off supplies to the city completely and thereby drive the Jews to starvation.
But Jesus isnt the only one who foretold the destruction of Jerusalem. The prophet Daniel also recorded a prophecy about its destruction during the days of the coming Messiah .... i've copied and pasted a article from the WT which explains that prophecy:

Watchtower Article
"Notice at Matthew 24:15 that Jesus referred to what was written in the book of Daniel. In Daniel chapter 9 of that book is a prophecy that foretold the coming of Messiah and the judgment that would be executed on the Jewish nation for rejecting him. The latter part of Daniel 9 verse 27 says: “And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation.” Early Jewish tradition applied that part of Daniel’s prophecy to the profaning of Jehovah’s temple in Jerusalem by Antiochus IV in the second century B.C.E. But Jesus cautioned: “Let the reader use discernment.” The desecration of the temple by Antiochus IV, though certainly disgusting, did not result in desolation—of Jerusalem, of the temple, or of the Jewish nation. So Jesus was evidently cautioning his hearers that fulfillment of this was not in the past but was yet future.

5 What was “the disgusting thing” for which they were to be on the lookout? It is noteworthy that Matthew’s account says: “When you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation . . . standing in a holy place.” However, the parallel account at Luke 21:20 reads: “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near.” In 66 C.E., Christians living in Jerusalem did see what Jesus had foretold. A series of incidents involving conflict between the Jews and Roman officials led to Jerusalem’s becoming a hotbed of rebellion against Rome. As a result, violence flared up throughout Judea, Samaria, Galilee, the Decapolis, and Phoenicia, north into Syria, and south into Egypt. In order to restore a measure of peace to that part of the Roman Empire, Cestius Gallus rushed military forces from Syria to Jerusalem, which the Jews spoke of as their “holy city.”—Nehemiah 11:1; Isaiah 52:1.

6 It was customary for the Roman legions to carry standards, or ensigns, which they viewed as sacred but which the Jews viewed as idolatrous. Interestingly, the Hebrew word translated “disgusting thing” in the book of Daniel is used principally of idols and idolatry.* (Deuteronomy 29:17) In spite of resistance by the Jews, the Roman forces bearing their idolatrous ensigns penetrated into Jerusalem in November of 66 C.E. and then started to undermine the temple wall on the north. There was no doubt about it—a “disgusting thing” that could cause complete desolation to Jerusalem was “standing in a holy place”! But how could anyone flee?

That's the claim, not evidence, so what objective evidence is there to support that claim?

Also assuming some unknown author made a claim that could be sufficiently supported any objective evidence, and assuming some outcome matched it beyond any reasonable doubt, how does that evidence any deity? You keep avoiding this question, and it has not gone unnoticed.

 

[Sheldon]

The Isaiah 53 prophesy is the claim that Jesus Christ fulfilled, yes.

Well that's a subjective claim, but thanks for stating what is axiomatically true, that this is just a claim, now we're right back to the start, what objective evidence can you demonstrate to support that claim?

I presented the Scriptural testimony of for example the Ethiopian who was asking who Isaiah 53 was talking about, Philip showed him how Jesus did.

Two more unevidenced claims is all I see?

You will have to form you own beliefs about it but to this point you have none, why continue?

I don't have to do anything of the sort, I can simply withhold belief, and since this thread was started in a debate forum, making claims for the efficacy of biblical prophesy, it is up to those who make such claims, whether they wish to continue, despite the dearth of any evidence for their claims, objective or otherwise.

Who else in history is Isaiah 53 talking about? Go ahead present your case. I will wait.

One more time then, this is a logical fallacy, it is called argumentum ad ignorantiam. In logic a claim, belief, or argument does not gain any credence because it cannot be falsified. Do you believe in invisible mermaids that control gravity, and that cannot be detected in any empirical way? I look forward to you offering an alternative.

 

[firedragon]

Unfortunately I did do that, but you rejected the method. So naturally Im interested in what method is acceptable to you because you obviously believe Mohammad existed in the 7th century...but why?

Irrelevant.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Well that's a subjective claim, but thanks for stating what is axiomatically true, that this is just a claim, now we're right back to the start, what objective evidence can you demonstrate to support that claim?


Two more unevidenced claims is all I see?



I don't have to do anything of the sort, I can simply withhold belief, and since this thread was started in a debate forum, making claims for the efficacy of biblical prophesy, it is up to those who make such claims, whether they wish to continue, despite the dearth of any evidence for their claims, objective or otherwise.



One more time then, this is a logical fallacy, it is called argumentum ad ignorantiam. In logic a claim, belief, or argument does not gain any credence because it cannot be falsified. Do you believe in invisible mermaids that control gravity, and that cannot be detected in any empirical way? I look forward to you offering an alternative.

Wait, are you saying you don’t believe Jesus Christ is a real person?

 

[Redemptionsong]

That would be true of any claim, religious or otherwise.



UNEVIDENCED CLAIM...



You are placing your wheezy old pony behind your cart, start by demonstrating objective evidence that Moses existed at all. Making claims about the thing you're arguing for, in an argument for it, is called a begging the question fallacy, look it up.



That's called an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, again look it up.



No it isn't, again this is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.



There can't be further evidence, until you present some.



That's a bare unevidenced claim.



So it's not a bare claim because you say so, snd then use an argumentum ad populum fallacy? Seriously?



Another bare unevidenced claim.



Another bare unevidenced claim.



This would be the Paul that never met Jesus, and whose opinions are pure hearsay after the fact?

The Bible, and the Holy Spirit, are my evidence of God.

Like all secular humanists, you choose to overlook the evidence for God that stares you in the face. It's no wonder that the Psalmist said, 'The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.' [Psalm 14:1]

The Bible was revealed to prophets who belonged to the tribes of lsrael. The books of scripture contain different forms of writing, including historical narrative, a form that is open to investigation.

When the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus (1st century), wrote 'Antiquities of the Jews' he drew on Biblical material. It was believed to be accurate and reliable.

Today, new approaches and technologies allow historians and archaeologists greater access to evidence from the past. The discoveries being made provide support for the Biblical narrative.

Jews and Christians exist. Both have an origin in time, recorded by the Bible.

As a secular humanist, can you provide a coherent history of the Jew and Christian?

 

[MyM]

Isaiah 53 does say God would lay on Him the iniquity of us all. Acts 8 the gospel was preached using that Scripture and he believed and was baptized.
“And those who had laid hold of Jesus led Him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled. But Peter followed Him at a distance to the high priest’s courtyard. And he went in and sat with the servants to see the end. Now the chief priests, the elders, and all the council sought false testimony against Jesus to put Him to death, but found none. Even though many false witnesses came forward, they found none. But at last two false witnesses came forward and said, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.’ ” And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! What do you think?” They answered and said, “He is deserving of death.” Then they spat in His face and beat Him; and others struck Him with the palms of their hands, saying, “Prophesy to us, Christ! Who is the one who struck You?””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:57-68‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
Jesus was silent then opened his mouth as you can see. When He did open His mouth He was accused of blasphemy. If Jesus was not Immanuel, God with us and just a man, He would have been a false prophet and blasphemer.
You have to pick one or the other.The way I see it is Jesus is worshipped in Heaven and on Earth, He didn’t stop anyone but received their worship. Muslims have quite a dilemma, don’t see how you can say Jesus was a man and consider him a prophet when He said otherwise and also received worship. Either He is God in the flesh or a false prophet and blasphemer.

There are many things and not everything is this or that. Black or white...no- there are endless shades of grey in between. Jesus was a mighty messenger of God. But that doesn't mean that he was worshipped as a god. He never claimed to be God. Never and he never throughout the entire Bible said he was God or worship me. You quote different verses from the Bible, but show me Jesus' gospel. Show me his words where he said I am God.
Muslims don't have any dilemma We believe in our Creator and we believe in all his prophets. I see yall havin the dilemma since you can't prove the Bible even being from God.