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I almost choked to death on pizza!

Do you believe in intelligent design?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 6 18.8%
  • No.

    Votes: 23 71.9%
  • Maybe/Unsure.

    Votes: 3 9.4%

  • Total voters
    32

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I don't think so. I'll let him tell me what his relevance is.
How about "design that is done in such a way so that everything actually looks as if no design was involved"?

Those 3 points I mentioned.... they make no sense in light of "design".

Why would a designer give a bipedal creature a spine that is just a modified form of a spine of creatures that crawl on all fours, ensuring lower back pains later in life for most bipedal creatures?
Why not give it an actual spine that IS fully fit for bipedalism?
In evolution, this is properly explained: the spine evolved for walking on al fours and was gradually modified over the generations to accomodate for bipedalism. And the gains of bipedalism outweighed the inconvenience of lower back pains later in life.

Why give a creature a mouth too small to house all the teeth?
In evolution, this is properly explained: the mouth didn't use to be that small. But as the brain grew, the mouth had to become smaller and the gains of a larger brain outweighed the inconvenience of a smaller mouth.

etc.


Evolution actually has explanatory power.
While "design" only raises even more questions while answering none.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
How about "design that is done in such a way so that everything actually looks as if no design was involved"?

Those 3 points I mentioned.... they make no sense in light of "design".

Why would a designer give a bipedal creature a spine that is just a modified form of a spine of creatures that crawl on all fours, ensuring lower back pains later in life for most bipedal creatures?
Why not give it an actual spine that IS fully fit for bipedalism?
In evolution, this is properly explained: the spine evolved for walking on al fours and was gradually modified over the generations to accomodate for bipedalism. And the gains of bipedalism outweighed the inconvenience of lower back pains later in life.

Why give a creature a mouth too small to house all the teeth?
In evolution, this is properly explained: the mouth didn't use to be that small. But as the brain grew, the mouth had to become smaller and the gains of a larger brain outweighed the inconvenience of a smaller mouth.

etc.


Evolution actually has explanatory power.
While "design" only raises even more questions while answering none.
#40
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
In my world view, I see it this way/
1) If you chew your food first, you wouldn't have to choke. Having two tube may create an engineering problem if you are breathing through your mouth as well as your nose.

This doesn't address the point at all. This is just you making up hindsight excuses, which don't even make any sense. You think an all powerful creator would be stumped by such a stupid "engineering problem" as making sure one can't choke on food? :rolleyes:

You think very little of your god imo.

2) Of course the context was in tooth decay not in the size of our mouths... but to answer your question, in my Christian world view, the physical problems we have ultimately comes from disobedience of man that opened up a curse on the ground of this earth

I can only repeat my question.
How does "disobedience" lead to a mouth that is too small to house all the teeth? You make no sense at all.

, What is your world view for the problems that we have and why?

As over the ages human brains grew bigger, the required extra room was compensated by the mouth growing smaller.

Evolution actually explains these things. Every single one of them.
While in your religion, you have to make up ad hoc nonsense to try and "excuse it away".

3) Besides #2, lack of exercise, too much sitting down, lack of good eating habits (for strength of bones), misuse of body throughout the lifetime and many other possibilities.

You completely missed the point there.
This is not the result of not exercising. Top athletes aren't exempt from this.
This is purely about the biological build up of the spine. The very design thereof. Lower back problems are inevitable.

The actual reason is that this spine is a spine that evolved to walk on all fours for hundreds of millions of years. It's only since homo erectus, some 1 to 2 million years ago, that it started to gradually evolve to accomodate for bipedalism.

Looking at it objectively from a design perspective, our spine is NOT fit or meant for bipedalism. It simply isn't.

This is expected in evolutionary context.
From a design perspective, it is the opposite of what one would expect.

If the human body was design, then I would not expect the designer to use a spine meant to crawl on all fours and then tinker a bit with it to make it just "good enough" to accomodate for bipedalism. That is incredibly lazy and amateuristic.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
This doesn't address the point at all. This is just you making up hindsight excuses, which don't even make any sense. You think an all powerful creator would be stumped by such a stupid "engineering problem" as making sure one can't choke on food? :rolleyes:

You think very little of your god imo.

??? This doesn't make any sense at all. edit: sounds more like a rant than a point.

I can only repeat my question.
How does "disobedience" lead to a mouth that is too small to house all the teeth? You make no sense at all. As over the ages human brains grew bigger, the required extra room was compensated by the mouth growing smaller.

Evolution actually explains these things. Every single one of them.
While in your religion, you have to make up ad hoc nonsense to try and "excuse it away".

Ok... what I understand here is that you believe evolution is faulty. I'm ok with you having your own world view.

You completely missed the point there.
This is not the result of not exercising. Top athletes aren't exempt from this.
This is purely about the biological build up of the spine. The very design thereof. Lower back problems are inevitable.

The actual reason is that this spine is a spine that evolved to walk on all fours for hundreds of millions of years. It's only since homo erectus, some 1 to 2 million years ago, that it started to gradually evolve to accomodate for bipedalism.

Looking at it objectively from a design perspective, our spine is NOT fit or meant for bipedalism. It simply isn't.

This is expected in evolutionary context.
From a design perspective, it is the opposite of what one would expect.

If the human body was design, then I would not expect the designer to use a spine meant to crawl on all fours and then tinker a bit with it to make it just "good enough" to accomodate for bipedalism. That is incredibly lazy and amateuristic.

Top athletes are pushing their bodies to an extreme. Football players naturally have all sorts of problems. Basketball players are tall and then are shoved to the floor. Gymnasts beat their bodies on the bars. So I'm not sure your athletic point has any validity.

Certainly aging has its consequences -- but my point was "lack of exercise", sitting too much at our computers and desks (the newest problem IMV)

I think looking at it objectively, bipedalism for humans is the best view. Unless you want to continue crawling on your fours, that is. I think having one tube is better than having two. Can you give me a different engineering answer?
 
Last edited:

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Not really. My world view is my world view whether it is convenient or not convenient. It might not be convenient for me to forgive... but I do it anyways because it is my world view.

Still more convenient than risking going to hell, isn't it?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Still more convenient than risking going to hell, isn't it?

I'm not sure the word is "convenient" unless you are saying "It is more convenient to not rob a bank than to go to jail". :) If you are saying that, then I am in agreement.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I'm not sure the word is "convenient" unless you are saying "It is more convenient to not rob a bank than to go to jail". :) If you are saying that, then I am in agreement.

When we want to maintain and protect a belief we hold dear, we will align our actions and our other beliefs, in the most convenient way we can, to protect it. Every new piece of information we learn has to be interpreted in a way that is congruent with it.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I put maybe, I am still studying the subject of Genesis (highly recommend beginning with the Fathers, St. Basil's Hexameron and St. Gregory's On the Making of Man are the two works, in order, I am studying currently) to see what the truth of the matter is. One thing I do know is this: our bodies became worse and degraded in the Fall, so problems with them are not unexpected to me.
No they didn't. The Genesis account is allegorical, not literal. Any decent parish priest will be able to confirm this is how it is to be interpreted.

(By the way, the feature of construction that the poster complains is about is common to all mammals, not just Man.)
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I am happy you didn't choke... and I do hope you get good dental care! :)

Yes... we are all going to die and our bodies will deteriorate... but I don't believe it is God's faulty construction but our faulty way of life and living. IMO.

Even the God fearing, faithful and pure, end up with horrendous deaths.
happens all the time.
Religion is not an insurance policy, or guarantee against anything.
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
No they didn't. The Genesis account is allegorical, not literal. Any decent parish priest will be able to confirm this is how it is to be interpreted.

(By the way, the feature of construction that the poster complains is about is common to all mammals, not just Man.)

It has allegorical elements perhaps but we have dogmas if you did not realize:

"For the faithful in Christ cannot accept this view, which holds that either after Adam there existed men on this earth, who did not receive their origin by natural generation from him, the first parent of all; or that Adam signifies some kind of multitude of first parents; for it is by no means apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with what the sources of revealed truth and the acts of the magisterium of the Church teaches about original sin, which proceeds from a sin truly committed by one Adam, and which is transmitted to all by generation, and exists in each one as his own." (Humani Generis, 1950)

"If anyone does not confess that the first man Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost his holiness and the justice in which he had been established, and that he incurred through the offense of that prevarication the wrath and indignation of God and hence the death with which God had previously threatened him, and with death captivity under his power, who thenceforth "had the empire of death" [Heb. 2:14], that is of the devil, and that through that offense of prevarication the entire Adam was transformed in body and soul for the worse, let him be anathema." (Ecumenical Council of Trent, 1546)

We clearly in these and in many other places in the Church affirm a historical Adam and his Fall and that we are his children all of us.

And concerning animals I hold that death entered material creation through humanity, as we were the priests and head of it (I say material for it is known that spiritual death, a falling away from grace, happened before this, but perhaps even all). I hold this in light of Romans 8 and the divinely inspired St. Maximus: "in the beginning sin seduced Adam and persuaded him to transgress God's commandment ... thus condemning our whole human nature to death and, via humanity, pressing the nature of (all) created beings toward mortal extinction." In the man Adam all things died and in the True Man Jesus all things will live. Fr. John Meyendorff expounds on the Patristic thought of recapitulation (even St. Irenaeus of Lyons discusses the matter) saying:

"By his virginal birth, Christ overcomes the opposition of the sexes—In Christ, says Paul, there is neither male nor female (Gal. 3:28). By his death and resurrection, Christ destroys the separation that existed since the fall between paradise and the universe. Today you shall be with me in Paradise, says Christ to the good thief (Lk 23:43)—giving to the human race access to the forbidden garden, coming back himself on earth after his resurrection, and showing that in himself paradise and the universe are henceforth one. By his ascension he unites heaven and earth through the exaltation of the human body, co-natural and consubstantial with ours, which he had assumed. By going beyond the angelic orders with his human soul and body, he restores the unity between the worlds of sense and of mind, and establishes the harmony of the whole creation. Finally, as man, he accomplishes in all truth the true human destiny that he himself had predetermined as God, and from which man had turned: he unites man to God."

So is demonstrated even a corruption of the other animals through us.

Now if this is in fact false and they, including our Church, are all in error, I'd like a demonstration of this and Patristic support drawn for it and not a vague reference to parish priests, for I have been under many good priests who were righteous and knowledgeable, and none said what you just said, except what I just said, that we affirm a historical Adam but that Genesis has allegorical elements, although none would affirm a dichotomy between these two things (and none can, for Sarah and Hagar is a history but also a symbol, as St. Paul states, so there is no contradiction between history and a symbol). Patristic support, Magisterial support, that kind of thing. For I must have missed it.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
It has allegorical elements perhaps but we have dogmas if you did not realize:

"For the faithful in Christ cannot accept this view, which holds that either after Adam there existed men on this earth, who did not receive their origin by natural generation from him, the first parent of all; or that Adam signifies some kind of multitude of first parents; for it is by no means apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with what the sources of revealed truth and the acts of the magisterium of the Church teaches about original sin, which proceeds from a sin truly committed by one Adam, and which is transmitted to all by generation, and exists in each one as his own." (Humani Generis, 1950)

"If anyone does not confess that the first man Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost his holiness and the justice in which he had been established, and that he incurred through the offense of that prevarication the wrath and indignation of God and hence the death with which God had previously threatened him, and with death captivity under his power, who thenceforth "had the empire of death" [Heb. 2:14], that is of the devil, and that through that offense of prevarication the entire Adam was transformed in body and soul for the worse, let him be anathema." (Ecumenical Council of Trent, 1546)

We clearly in these and in many other places in the Church affirm a historical Adam and his Fall and that we are his children all of us.

And concerning animals I hold that death entered material creation through humanity, as we were the priests and head of it (I say material for it is known that spiritual death, a falling away from grace, happened before this, but perhaps even all). I hold this in light of Romans 8 and the divinely inspired St. Maximus: "in the beginning sin seduced Adam and persuaded him to transgress God's commandment ... thus condemning our whole human nature to death and, via humanity, pressing the nature of (all) created beings toward mortal extinction." In the man Adam all things died and in the True Man Jesus all things will live. Fr. John Meyendorff expounds on the Patristic thought of recapitulation (even St. Irenaeus of Lyons discusses the matter) saying:

"By his virginal birth, Christ overcomes the opposition of the sexes—In Christ, says Paul, there is neither male nor female (Gal. 3:28). By his death and resurrection, Christ destroys the separation that existed since the fall between paradise and the universe. Today you shall be with me in Paradise, says Christ to the good thief (Lk 23:43)—giving to the human race access to the forbidden garden, coming back himself on earth after his resurrection, and showing that in himself paradise and the universe are henceforth one. By his ascension he unites heaven and earth through the exaltation of the human body, co-natural and consubstantial with ours, which he had assumed. By going beyond the angelic orders with his human soul and body, he restores the unity between the worlds of sense and of mind, and establishes the harmony of the whole creation. Finally, as man, he accomplishes in all truth the true human destiny that he himself had predetermined as God, and from which man had turned: he unites man to God."

So is demonstrated even a corruption of the other animals through us.

Now if this is in fact false and they, including our Church, are all in error, I'd like a demonstration of this and Patristic support drawn for it and not a vague reference to parish priests, for I have been under many good priests who were righteous and knowledgeable, and none said what you just said, except what I just said, that we affirm a historical Adam but that Genesis has allegorical elements, although none would affirm a dichotomy between these two things (and none can, for Sarah and Hagar is a history but also a symbol, as St. Paul states, so there is no contradiction between history and a symbol). Patristic support, Magisterial support, that kind of thing. For I must have missed it.
It is perfectly obvious that death has always existed. If organisms did not die, there would be no fossils.

The "death" in the Fall is spiritual, not physical.

(By the way the Catholic church is wrong to insist that all mankind is directly descended from a single historical person. It makes no biological sense. My guess is they will drop it, in time.)
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Yes, I believe in intelligent design. I also believe that man, sometimes, can be so ignorant as to violate simple truths that intelligence has designed to prevent hurt.
How Many Times Should You Chew Your Food?
What does The Bible have to say on how many times one should chew their food, Ken? That's really what is pertinent to the Intelligent Design argument from your side, I feel. Did God bother to augment our airway + food-passage design with the knowledge to keep us from remaining ignorant and dying of choking? Also - how did God propose that babies be informed of this "simple [truth]... to prevent hurt" when they are first foraying into the realm of solid foods? What does The Bible (or direction from God) have to say on these matters?
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
It is perfectly obvious that death has always existed. If organisms did not die, there would be no fossils.

The "death" in the Fall is spiritual, not physical.

(By the way the Catholic church is wrong to insist that all mankind is directly descended from a single historical person. It makes no biological sense. My guess is they will drop it, in time.)

That is not obvious at all to me, and Scripture also says "God did not make death" in Wisdom I believe, so that is another factor to consider. But you disregard the Church teaching on this point so I suppose there is no need discussing it.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
When we want to maintain and protect a belief we hold dear, we will align our actions and our other beliefs, in the most convenient way we can, to protect it. Every new piece of information we learn has to be interpreted in a way that is congruent with it.
I guess that is one way to approach it. I usually ask questions.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Even the God fearing, faithful and pure, end up with horrendous deaths.
happens all the time.
Religion is not an insurance policy, or guarantee against anything.

I don't quite agree with your position.

People die of cancer but some are healed by chemotherapy. People use seatbelts but still die from car crashes.

But one thing for sure, IMV and my position of belief, Jesus presents us faultless before the Father with joy. That is one thing I am certain of though you don't have to subscribe to my belief system.

Also the only other one thing I am guaranteed of, is my physical body will die. I think we all can agree and be certain of that.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
That is not obvious at all to me, and Scripture also says "God did not make death" in Wisdom I believe, so that is another factor to consider. But you disregard the Church teaching on this point so I suppose there is no need discussing it.
How do you account for fossils?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
What does The Bible have to say on how many times one should chew their food, Ken? That's really what is pertinent to the Intelligent Design argument from your side, I feel. Did God bother to augment our airway + food-passage design with the knowledge to keep us from remaining ignorant and dying of choking? Also - how did God propose that babies be informed of this "simple [truth]... to prevent hurt" when they are first foraying into the realm of solid foods? What does The Bible (or direction from God) have to say on these matters?

I think if God wrote down all nuances of every situation and of every point of life, we wouldn't have enough room on this world to hold it all.

What I believe is pertinent, is that how one eats or treats his/her body has nothing to do with intelligent design, which was the posters point. It has to do with how one eats and treats his/her own body.
 
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