Christians and Jews Mostly: Messiah

[dybmh]

No I did not forget anything. You misrepresenting my posts, and you are being more than a bit obnoxious.

'Again not me, and I do not claim 'to know all that.' I use Jewish sources.

NO, you do not 'Got it.'"

Ah. Then you mispoke in post 96.

 

[shunyadragon]

Ah. Then you mispoke in post 96.

No I did not forget anything. You misrepresenting my posts, and you are being more than a bit obnoxious, and an [anal grammarian].

'Again not me, and I do not claim 'to know all that.' I use Jewish sources.

NO, you do not 'Got it.'"

 

[dybmh]

No I did not forget anything. You misrepresenting my posts, and you are being more than a bit obnoxious, and an [anal grammarian].

'Again not me, and I do not claim 'to know all that.' I use Jewish sources.

NO, you do not 'Got it.'"

Then what does the Hebrew text mean from Post 96?

 

[Link]

I have no doubt Mohammad (s) is both in the Torah and Gospels still today, clear enough, with reflection and in the Psalms as well.

 

[Segev Moran]

I believe the Jews in this thread have answered your questions.

I've only red some and and they did answer it not even close.

a Throwing out Hebrew citations without explanations gets you nowhere

I agree.
In short, the citations i gave literally tells the entire world will be knowing god and global peace and all the rest.
This was to show I am not inventing it out of a spiritual interpretation of the text, rather this is written without riddles.
If you wish for a word to word explanation, i will gladly do so.

The Hebrew Tanakh does not deal with the world outside the Hebrew times and culture they were compiled.

It actually does.
Not in details. but the story begins with the creation process of humanity.
It than portraits a spread of people and formation of language.
It then describes a corrupted society that brought its (near) own demise.
From the recovery of that event, it is indeed focused on the story of the creation of Israel.
Israel (word), mean, straight with god (in gods way).
The story from that point is indeed focused on the Israelites travel to Israel (Canaan).
In all the prophecies regarding the days after days, there is a reference to the world in its entirety.

They have described how Christians have mistranslated and misinterpreted the scriptures to fit their worldview.

I agree that many indeed do.
There are also (too) many Jews who do the same.
Same goes for Islam.
I don't see how that relates to the fact the Jewish texts describe what it describes?

 

[Segev Moran]

@shunyadragon : So... you can read Hebrew and understand it? You said you're fully aware of it??? Then translate the Hebrew for us; otherwise you look like donkey's rear end.

1. The this Yishayahoo ben amots have seen on judea and jerusalem.
2. At the time after the days, the house of god will be on top of the mountains and all the "groups" of the world.

"groups":

The word גוי refers to a group of people with common social way of life. the word "גוים" is the multitude of them.
The Hebrew people are also "גוי".
Every nation, society, group of people, is called "גוי".
As an example, when god tells someone he will be "גוי גדול", a big "group", it means they will be a great (physically) "nation".

3. In short, it means and many nations decide to hear to his ways and understand the "torah" comes for Jerusalem. It also states that the location of the knowledge will be of the same god Jacob believes in.
4. And he (the messiah) "judged" all the "groups" and proven them, and they all dropped their weapons and replaced them with songs and no more war will be between "groups" and they will know no war.

This is only mall part of it, just to show it is literally stated.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

. . . which is the roll of the ruling righteous King of the Hebrews.

I find Jesus as Messiah is also King over the figurative 'sheep' found on Earth at Jesus' coming Glory Time of separation.
- Matthew 25:31-33; Matthew 25:34

 

[dybmh]

1. The this Yishayahoo ben amots have seen on judea and jerusalem.
2. At the time after the days, the house of god will be on top of the mountains and all the "groups" of the world.

"groups":

The word גוי refers to a group of people with common social way of life. the word "גוים" is the multitude of them.
The Hebrew people are also "גוי".
Every nation, society, group of people, is called "גוי".
As an example, when god tells someone he will be "גוי גדול", a big "group", it means they will be a great (physically) "nation".

3. In short, it means and many nations decide to hear to his ways and understand the "torah" comes for Jerusalem. It also states that the location of the knowledge will be of the same god Jacob believes in.
4. And he (the messiah) "judged" all the "groups" and proven them, and they all dropped their weapons and replaced them with songs and no more war will be between "groups" and they will know no war.

This is only mall part of it, just to show it is literally stated.

What's the source?

 

[PruePhillip]

For starters, Christian bibles mistranslate the verse. It goes on from there. I'm feeling lazy this afternoon, so I'll simply refer you to the following YouTube vid on the subject:

'post mortem.. not a part of the crucufixion... which the Jews didn't do....'

Nah... I find this guy a tad disengenuous and arrogant.
John says 'They will look upon me whom they pierced' isn't even
relevant to the Zechariah text - John just recalls the 'look upon' and
'pierced.'
Zechariah wasn't talking about some great soldier or king dying in a future
battle - he was talking about the Messia who reigns over the nations, and
that the Jews will RECOGNIZE him - there's two verses, this Rabbi refers
to just one.
The one he didn't quote

Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
I will take away the chariots from Ephraim
and the warhorses from Jerusalem,
and the battle bow will be broken.
He will proclaim peace to the nations.
His rule will extend from sea to sea
and from the River to the ends of the earth.

And the verse he tried to explain away

On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem
a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have
pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and
grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Not a dead hero or king, but one who was ONCE DEAD but now reigns
over the natins.

 

[Segev Moran]

What's the source?

The Hebrew texts are from the Hebrew bible. (Yishaayahu [Issiah] Chapter 2)
The translation source is the Hebrew language.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

'They will look upon me whom they pierced'

Again, the chrisitan version is a mistranslation. A much better translation is from the Jewish Publication Society:
And they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; Zechariah 12:10

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I have no doubt Mohammad (s) is both in the Torah and Gospels still today, clear enough, with reflection and in the Psalms as well.

Nothing could be further from the truth. There is no mention of Muhammad either by name, or any prophecy that such a person will someday come, either in the Tanakh, or in the New Testament. No, not the Psalms either.

 

[Rival]

On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem
a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have
pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and
grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Not a dead hero or king, but one who was ONCE DEAD but now reigns
over the natins.

Where's the bit where this dude comes back to life...

 

[PruePhillip]

Where's the bit where this dude comes back to life...

Yes, the Jews don't believe that. In fact the whole idea of the Messiah
as REDEEMER is a confusion to them - isn't the Messiah The One who
reigns over their enemies?
But when the Jews see their Messiah king they will 'mourn' that this one
is the same lowly man who rode upon a donkey, the same man they
killed.

 

[PruePhillip]

Again, the chrisitan version is a mistranslation. A much better translation is from the Jewish Publication Society:
And they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; Zechariah 12:10

You have heard of Christology, the phenomona of Christians rewriting the bible.
Well this is Jewology. Or even, if you will, ReligousForumOlogy.

 

[Rival]

Yes, the Jews don't believe that. In fact the whole idea of the Messiah
as REDEEMER is a confusion to them - isn't the Messiah The One who
reigns over their enemies?
But when the Jews see their Messiah king they will 'mourn' that this one
is the same lowly man who rode upon a donkey, the same man they
killed.

Have you ever stopped to wonder why the Jews - the group to whom these scriptures were given and who had right of interpretation - differ so much from Christians, most of whom couldn't read and most of whom still now can't read Hebrew? Why should the group that came along after the fact be right, and the one which had been studying these texts for hundreds of years before the second group came along be wrong?

It's nonsense to the hilt.

 

[PruePhillip]

Have you ever stopped to wonder why the Jews - the group to whom these scriptures were given and who had right of interpretation - differ so much from Christians, most of whom couldn't read and most of whom still now can't read Hebrew? Why should the group that came along after the fact be right, and the one which had been studying these texts for hundreds of years before the second group came along be wrong?

It's nonsense to the hilt.

Have you ever wondered why the Jews, the people symolizing 'God's people' have
been so 'provoked to jealousy' and so 'trampled down of the Gentiles' for so long?
Left to die in the 40 year wilderness, given into the hands of their enemies, sent
into slavery, exiled for 1800 years, put to the sword by the Crusaders, gassed by
the Germans, evicted by 120 nations (yes, really)

A holocaust survivor used to ask me, concerning God, 'Where was he? WHERE
WAS HE?' I did not want to ask where was the Jewish nation when God called
for them in every single book of the Tanaka (Old Testament) And Jesus said the
Jews will suffer in exile 'because they knew not the time of their visitation.'

So sure, some Jews can read Hebrew, but I am not sure what that is supposed
to mean for them.

 

[Rival]

Have you ever wondered why the Jews, the people symolizing 'God's people' have
been so 'provoked to jealousy' and so 'trampled down of the Gentiles' for so long?
Left to die in the 40 year wilderness, given into the hands of their enemies, sent
into slavery, exiled for 1800 years, put to the sword by the Crusaders, gassed by
the Germans, evicted by 120 natins (yes, really)

A holocaust survivor used to ask me, concerning God, 'Where was he? WHERE
WAS HE?' I did not want to ask where was the Jewish nation when God called
for them in every single book of the Tanaka (Old Testament) And Jesus said the
Jews will suffer in exile 'because they knew not the time of their visitation.'

So sure, some Jews can read Hebrew, but I am not sure what that is supposed
to mean for them.

"For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor teraphim." - Hoshea.

This is meant to happen.

That they can read Hebrew means they can understand their scriptures; they can contextualise and interpret them. Even many of the earliest Christians couldn't read, so how could they know? The Jews have pored over these texts and expected nothing like the Christian version of the messiah. I'm not sure how much easier I could make this. They know what to expect like the backs of their hands because they've read and studied and understood what is meant to happen over and over and over again for hundreds of years. In your interpretation, all this learning led to absolutely nothing.

 

[PruePhillip]

"For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor teraphim." - Hoshea.

This is meant to happen.

That they can read Hebrew means they can understand their scriptures; they can contextualise and interpret them. Even many of the earliest Christians couldn't read, so how could they know? The Jews have pored over these texts and expected nothing like the Christian version of the messiah. I'm not sure how much easier I could make this. They know what to expect like the backs of their hands because they've read and studied and understood what is meant to happen over and over and over again for hundreds of years. In your interpretation, all this learning led to absolutely nothing.

And that's exactly what Jesus said. They made the scripture of no effect through their traditions.
And what gets me is this - they have no concept of a Redeemer despite this Redeemer being
mentioned in ten percent of all Messianic prophecies.
Daniel said the enemy (Rome) would come in 'like a flood' and destroy the tempe, Jerusalem,
the nation and the Messiah. This was offensive to the Jews - their Messiah should SAVE them
from their enemies, not succumb to them.
Jews twist scripture in the same way Gentiles do.

 

[Rival]

And that's exactly what Jesus said. They made the scripture of no effect through their traditions.
And what gets me is this - they have no concept of a Redeemer despite this Redeemer being
mentioned in ten percent of all Messianic prophecies.
Daniel said the enemy (Rome) would come in 'like a flood' and destroy the tempe, Jerusalem,
the nation and the Messiah. This was offensive to the Jews - their Messiah should SAVE them
from their enemies, not succumb to them.
Jews twist scripture in the same way Gentiles do.

I don't see where or how the Jews twist them at all.

Tell me which of these messianic prophecies they twist and how:

Spoiler

2 Shmuel 7:10-13 (Samuel)
And I will appoint a place for My people, for Israel, and I will plant them, and they will dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and the wicked people shall not continue to afflict them as formerly.
And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the Lord has told you that the Lord will make for you a house.
When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

This has not happened. Wicked people have been murdering Jewish people all throughout history. The Temple is not built. There is no King.

Yeshayahu 2-4 (Isaiah)

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war and the Temple has not been re-established.

Yeshayahu 11-12-13

And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.
And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim.

The lost tribes have not been gathered back to Israel.

Yeshahyahu 27-12-13

And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gathered one by one, O children of Israel.
And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.

Not happened yet.

Yirmiyahu 31:33 (Jeremiah)

And no longer shall one teach his neighbour or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Nothing about needing a middle-man and we don't live in an age where everyone knows G-d is G-d.

Yechezkel 37:26-28 (Ezekiel)

And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever.

Temple still not built and the Nations don't all recognise G-d as G-d.

Micah 4:1-3

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it.
And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war. L-rd's House not established.

Tzefanaiah 3:9-13 (Zefanaiah)

For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering.
On that day you shall not be ashamed of all your deeds [with] which you rebelled against Me, for then I will remove from your midst those who rejoice in your pride, and you shall no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mount.
And I will leave over in your midst a humble and poor people, and they shall take shelter in the name of the Lord.
The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice nor speak lies; neither shall deceitful speech be found in their mouth, for they shall graze and lie down, with no one to cause them to shudder.

This hasn't happened either. None of it.

Zach 14:9-11

And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.
The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain, from the hill of Rimmon in the south of Jerusalem; but it [Jerusalem] will be elevated high and remain in its old place; from the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, until the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel until the king's wine-cellars.
And they shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more destruction; but Jerusalem shall dwell in safety.

Jerusalem is hardly dwelling in safety and polytheism is still a thing.