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Christians and Jews Mostly: Messiah

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
I don't see where or how the Jews twist them at all.

Tell me which of these messianic prophecies they twist and how:

Never encountered that Spoiler thingo before.

Here's just two
Jacob in Egypt said there would be a Hebrew nation and the law
UNTIL the Messiah comes.
Daniel said the enemy would destroy the temple, Jerusalem and
the Messiah.

Isn't the Messiah the one who SAVES Israel? Or will He, as it says
in Zechariah, return to save Israel?
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Where? The Torah repeatedly stresses it's forever.


Daniel is complex and often misunderstood.


Yes. As said in the above prophecies. It's really not hard.

“The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be
his” (Genesis 49:10).

There will be a monarchy
meaning there will be a soverign Hebrew nation
Judah will be the monarchy
and the Judean kings will protect the law
UNTIL
the Messiah comes
but the Messiah won't just be a Jewish blessing as the Gentiles will obey him

So the nation of Israel will last until the Messiah.
But Daniel, and David, and Isaiah etc speak of this Messiah suffering before
he triumphs - and those who suffer with him will reign with him.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Jacob in Egypt said there would be a Hebrew nation and the law
UNTIL the Messiah comes.
Can you show me the line? I don't recall Jacob's mentioning the messiah. If you are referring to a particular word use din Gen 49, then I guess you subscribe to the Jewish understanding and oral law which explain that word to (possibly) refer to a messianic figure. Maybe it is that you abide by the understanding of the classic Jewish commentators, some of whom explain the reference to be messianic. In that case, you should read up on the entire of their commentary in explaining the whole verse. it isn't what you seem to espouse.
Daniel said the enemy would destroy the temple, Jerusalem and
the Messiah.
Please show the verse in question because it seems that you grossly misunderstand both the purpose and content of the book of Daniel.
Isn't the Messiah the one who SAVES Israel? Or will He, as it says
in Zechariah, return to save Israel?
The problem here is with the use of the English verb "save." Yes, the messiah will lead the people, but not "save" in some Christian "salvation" sense.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Can you show me the line? I don't recall Jacob's mentioning the messiah. If you are referring to a particular word use din Gen 49, then I guess you subscribe to the Jewish understanding and oral law which explain that word to (possibly) refer to a messianic figure. Maybe it is that you abide by the understanding of the classic Jewish commentators, some of whom explain the reference to be messianic. In that case, you should read up on the entire of their commentary in explaining the whole verse. it isn't what you seem to espouse.

Please show the verse in question because it seems that you grossly misunderstand both the purpose and content of the book of Daniel.

The problem here is with the use of the English verb "save." Yes, the messiah will lead the people, but not "save" in some Christian "salvation" sense.

“The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be
his” (Genesis 49:10).

I for one am not in awe of Jewish rabbi commentary.
The rabbis remind me of atheist and Catholic style
intellectual tactics.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
“The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be
his” (Genesis 49:10).

I for one am not in awe of Jewish rabbi commentary.
The rabbis remind me of atheist and Catholic style
intellectual tactics.
Well, the Hebrew doesn't mention the messiah, in fact it uses a word which is the name of a city, and yet you are choosing not to understand it as a reference to a city. Also, the English you are using doesn't mention messiah, so you are making a leap into that idea and claiming it was Jacob's intent. Where do you get that from. Then, you are adopting a translation which actually skips at least one of the Hebrew words in the verse.

Here is a different translation:

The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
Nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet;
So that tribute shall come to him
And the homage of peoples be his.

----------
The question is then, on the basis of what (since I doubt you can read and understand the Hebrew source text) do you choose a translation and why would you then read an interpretation into the translation?
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Well, the Hebrew doesn't mention the messiah, in fact it uses a word which is the name of a city, and yet you are choosing not to understand it as a reference to a city. Also, the English you are using doesn't mention messiah, so you are making a leap into that idea and claiming it was Jacob's intent. Where do you get that from. Then, you are adopting a translation which actually skips at least one of the Hebrew words in the verse.

Here is a different translation:

The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
Nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet;
So that tribute shall come to him
And the homage of peoples be his.

----------
The question is then, on the basis of what (since I doubt you can read and understand the Hebrew source text) do you choose a translation and why would you then read an interpretation into the translation?

Your arguments come across as tactics.
Most Messianic references don't use the
word 'Messiah.'
The king coming, to whom the world will
obey, is a reference to the Messiah.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Your arguments come across as tactics.
Most Messianic references don't use the
word 'Messiah.'
The king coming, to whom the world will
obey, is a reference to the Messiah.
Yes. The argument is a tactic - a stratagem or method by which I can show a flaw in your thinking and therefore in your conclusions. Dismissing it by calling it a tactic, and not addressing the content comes across as an evasion.

If you want to interpret this verse as a reference to the Messiah to come, that's fine but unless you can explain why you choose one particular translation and then interpret that one then your position looks unsupported and arbitrary.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Yes. The argument is a tactic - a stratagem or method by which I can show a flaw in your thinking and therefore in your conclusions. Dismissing it by calling it a tactic, and not addressing the content comes across as an evasion.

If you want to interpret this verse as a reference to the Messiah to come, that's fine but unless you can explain why you choose one particular translation and then interpret that one then your position looks unsupported and arbitrary.

Encyclopedia Brittanica
messiah, (from Hebrew mashiaḥ, “anointed”), in Judaism, the expected king of the Davidic line who would deliver Israel from foreign bondage and restore the glories of its golden age.

The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites.
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”VRejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.


etc

No mention of the actual word Messiah. Jacob is speaking of the Messiah.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Encyclopedia Brittanica
messiah, (from Hebrew mashiaḥ, “anointed”), in Judaism, the expected king of the Davidic line who would deliver Israel from foreign bondage and restore the glories of its golden age.

The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites.

This is about Joshua, Moses' successor. It is not a messianic prophecy.

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”
This verse simply mean that the messiah will come from the Davidic line, symobolized by David's birth city of Bethlehem. It doesn't mean that the messiah literally has to be born in bethlehem.

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
This passage is actually about King Hezekiah, not the messiah. And a better translations is "His name shall be called a wonderful counselor IS the mighty God, and the everlasting father IS the prince of peace.

No mention of the actual word Messiah. Jacob is speaking of the Messiah.
Jacob never mentions a messiah. The whole idea of the messiah was unknown until after Israel decided to have a king. IOW, if Israel had not decided to have a king, then there would be no messiah. The messiah is simply the man who will rule Israel during the messianic era.

thanks for listening.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Encyclopedia Brittanica
messiah, (from Hebrew mashiaḥ, “anointed”), in Judaism, the expected king of the Davidic line who would deliver Israel from foreign bondage and restore the glories of its golden age.
Yes. Not necessarily what Jacob was referring to, but this definition isn't horrible (though it is incomplete).

But then you follow the dictionary with a series of verses in translation and you impose your interpretation on each one. You haven't answered my question (and you compound it by choosing these translations with no explanation):

Why do you adopt these English versions and why do you think that these verses, many of which grammatically, chronologically or thematically, refer to other things, are about something else like a future messiah?
No mention of the actual word Messiah. Jacob is speaking of the Messiah.
No mention and yet you say that they are talking about this idea. Why? And Jacob is speaking of the future line of rules from the tribe of Judah. As, legally, each one will be anointed, each one will be a "messiah." Why not understand it as that?
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Yes. Not necessarily what Jacob was referring to, but this definition isn't horrible (though it is incomplete).

But then you follow the dictionary with a series of verses in translation and you impose your interpretation on each one. You haven't answered my question (and you compound it by choosing these translations with no explanation):

Why do you adopt these English versions and why do you think that these verses, many of which grammatically, chronologically or thematically, refer to other things, are about something else like a future messiah?

No mention and yet you say that they are talking about this idea. Why? And Jacob is speaking of the future line of rules from the tribe of Judah. As, legally, each one will be anointed, each one will be a "messiah." Why not understand it as that?

And who is this?
שִׁיל֔וֹ
... Shilo

לֹא-יָסוּר שֵׁבֶט מִיהוּדָה, וּמְחֹקֵק מִבֵּין רַגְלָיו, עַד כִּי-יָבֹא שִׁילֹה, וְלוֹ יִקְּהַת עַמִּים
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, as long as men come to Shiloh; and unto him shall the obedience of the peoples be


Genesis 49 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre



Is there a Bible contradiction in Genesis 49:10? (defendinginerrancy.com)
However, the majority of scholars propose a different vowel pointing and understand the word to
mean “to whom it belongs.” This proposal has the support of ancient translations, such as the
Greek and Syriac versions of the OT, and others. These ancient versions, being much older than
the MT, also render the phrase, “he to whom they belong.” This reading is also supported by Ezekiel
21:27
which states, “Until He comes whose right it is.” When this part of verse 10 is taken this way,
the passage reads, “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver’s staff from between
his feet, Until He comes to whom it belongs, And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.”
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
And who is this?
שִׁיל֔וֹ
... Shilo

לֹא-יָסוּר שֵׁבֶט מִיהוּדָה, וּמְחֹקֵק מִבֵּין רַגְלָיו, עַד כִּי-יָבֹא שִׁילֹה, וְלוֹ יִקְּהַת עַמִּים
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, as long as men come to Shiloh; and unto him shall the obedience of the peoples be


Genesis 49 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre



Is there a Bible contradiction in Genesis 49:10? (defendinginerrancy.com)
However, the majority of scholars propose a different vowel pointing and understand the word to
mean “to whom it belongs.” This proposal has the support of ancient translations, such as the
Greek and Syriac versions of the OT, and others. These ancient versions, being much older than
the MT, also render the phrase, “he to whom they belong.” This reading is also supported by Ezekiel
21:27
which states, “Until He comes whose right it is.” When this part of verse 10 is taken this way,
the passage reads, “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver’s staff from between
his feet, Until He comes to whom it belongs, And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.”
So you are now asking for a translation of a particular word. You ask what it means when you have already decided. It is the name of a city (among other things).

Other commentators and the talmud see the word as having a deeper meaning and therefore reference, but they use particularly Jewish methods of interpretation to get there as the surface/textual reading is not in that vein.

So you still haven't explained why you choose a specific translation and how you make the leap in terms of interpretation.

Also, why you use translations that miss a word.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I find Jesus as Messiah is also King over the figurative 'sheep' found on Earth at Jesus' coming Glory Time of separation.
- Matthew 25:31-33; Matthew 25:34

Too much of a stretch if you consider the Tanakh alone. The Tanakh as a whole standalone refers only to the Messianic Kings in the context of salvation of the Jews.

I do believe in a ore universal concept of the 'Messiah' in the cyclic evolving spiritual nature of humanity and rebirth and renewal of humanity. The key in understanding this view of the Tanakh and the Messiah is the belief in the universal relationship between God humanity and Creation.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I hold that the narrative from Abraham onwards to be quite literal. Prior to this
the account was more and more symbolic - though the first Genesis account
is amazingly accurate. Bit by bit the story is being filled out. We know more of
the kings and prophets now, plus the empires, cities and towns. And now we
have the full account of Sodom and Gomorrah as historical.

But my favorite is the future history of the Jewish people and the Messiah in
the Old and New Testaments. That ought to be recognized for what it is.

Recognizing what the Tanakh and concept of the Messiah as 'what it is,' and nothing else only deals with the history of Jewish people. Part of the question of interpretation is the meaning of what is the 'world' in terms the Hebrew context the Hebrew culture, prophecy and God. In the Tanakh God is the Hebrew God, The world an their prophesies refer only to Judaism and their future.

There is basis for believing that the [world referred to in the Tanakh goes beyond the world they knew and thier future.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Recognizing what the Tanakh and concept of the Messiah as 'what it is,' and nothing else only deals with the history of Jewish people. Part of the question of interpretation is the meaning of what is the 'world' in terms the Hebrew context the Hebrew culture, prophecy and God. In the Tanakh God is the Hebrew God, The world an their prophesies refer only to Judaism and their future.

There is basis for believing that the [world referred to in the Tanakh goes beyond the world they knew and thier future.

Jacob said the Messiah would belong to the whole world, which
would have amazed the Hebrews. Isaiah said the same. In fact
the coming of the Gentiles to God is a common theme in both
testaments. Jesus said the Jews would lose Jerusalem and it
would 'be trampled under the feet of the Gentiles until the
Gentiles time is fulfilled.' This connecting of the Gentiles to the
doom of Israel and the Jews is also common.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Chapter and verse pelase.

Haven't we been over this before????

Genesis 49:10
The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs shall come
and the obedience of the nations shall be his


It's super interesting to me that now we have dates for this 'mythic Abraham.' The fifteen year study
of the Sodom and Gomorrah incident gives us ca 1650 BC, and we have Abraham's age in that same
year - he reached 100.
So roughly speaking - with Isaac and Jacob, and the 400 years in Egypt - the Hebrews could have
come out of Egypt during the 'Late Bronze Age Collapse.' At this time there was mass migration all
over the known world. It's the same time the Phillistines arrived in Canaan too.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Haven't we been over this before????

Genesis 49:10
The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs shall come
and the obedience of the nations shall be his


It's super interesting to me that now we have dates for this 'mythic Abraham.' The fifteen year study
of the Sodom and Gomorrah incident gives us ca 1650 BC, and we have Abraham's age in that same
year - he reached 100.
So roughly speaking - with Isaac and Jacob, and the 400 years in Egypt - the Hebrews could have
come out of Egypt during the 'Late Bronze Age Collapse.' At this time there was mass migration all
over the known world. It's the same time the Phillistines arrived in Canaan too.
Sorry, but this verse does not say what you think it says.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but this verse does not say what you think it says.

Oh sorry then, I looked in the Interlinear and the Bible Hub translations.
And furthermore, THIS IS WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED, ie the rise and
fall of Israel, their exile, the coming Messiah and the rise and fall of that
Messiah among Gentiles today. And now, the coming of the Jews back to
Israel.
If there is some other Messiah coming, and some other time when Israel
will be destroyed, scattered and then reconstituted back in the land of
Israel then I can't comment.
 
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