Economic Slavery

[Shadow Wolf]

Is the existence of some bad employers & some workers
who are incapable of finding a different job a good reason
to over-regulate employers, illegalize employment at will,
& force employers to become guardians/caretakers?

They had to in order to improve work conditions and create OSHA, minimum wage, ending child labor, shorter work weeks and days, anti-discrimination laws, and a host other regulations because lots of employers do exploit workers. It still happens today.
Amd it's not just finding a different job. In my case it was finding better work and until my 30s I was damned to crappy jobs because I consistently failed to impress during the interview.

How on Earth do you
inspire employers to treat you that way?

I typically have worked for places that hire anyone with a pulse, generally without even interviewing people. I can assure you, it's not just me these places **** on. The inventory job, I overheard one of the office managers degrading my/our workers with the store manager of the store we were counting for the day (I was above her so she got an earful from me).
Fat ***, the gas station manager, he cheated at least several people out of money, was stealing and pinning it on employees, and then a lady he promoted gave birth to a child who looked suspiciously a lot like him. He eventually got arrested when he was caught stealing tubes of cups from the shed.
And another boss, very stingy, everyone paying attention had to argue with him over pay, and he was degrading. He also went to jail, but I don't know what for.
And then there was the distribution center. They'd tell us if we moved so many pieces we'd have a short night. We did more and still had a 12 hour night. And then when the load was light the day shift always got Friday off while the night shift always got stuck coming in to clean.

Some laws are useful. Others are counter-productive.
If you've ever hired workers, you know that some must
be laid off or fired. Let business handle business, &
government take care of workers who never became
independent adults, & are of no use.

The rest of the Western world does just fine. Even with all the vacation, holidays, and paid sick time off.

 

[Heyo]

You describe a common problem in the construction business.

I think it is a general problem. Imagine a worker at Amazon, working for trinkets under horrible conditions while Jeff Bezos makes a vacation trip to space. I can't believe that that is fair.

 

[Revoltingest]

They had to in order to improve work conditions and create OSHA, minimum wage, ending child labor, shorter work weeks and days, anti-discrimination laws, and a host other regulations because lots of employers do exploit workers. It still happens today.
Amd it's not just finding a different job. In my case it was finding better work and until my 30s I was damned to crappy jobs because I consistently failed to impress during the interview.

This thread isn't about useful regulations like safety.
It's about the idea that workers are slaves. That seems
to be an attitude borne of failure to take responsibility
for supporting oneself, & to make a job work.

I also don't buy failing to "impress during the interview"
being the cause of every job being crappy. Jobs are
usually what one makes of them. When mine haven't
gone as well as I liked, I faced how I should've done
things better.

I typically have worked for places that hire anyone with a pulse, generally without even interviewing people. I can assure you, it's not just me these places **** on. The inventory job, I overheard one of the office managers degrading my/our workers with the store manager of the store we were counting for the day (I was above her so she got an earful from me).
Fat ***, the gas station manager, he cheated at least several people out of money, was stealing and pinning it on employees, and then a lady he promoted gave birth to a child who looked suspiciously a lot like him. He eventually got arrested when he was caught stealing tubes of cups from the shed.
And another boss, very stingy, everyone paying attention had to argue with him over pay, and he was degrading. He also went to jail, but I don't know what for.
And then there was the distribution center. They'd tell us if we moved so many pieces we'd have a short night. We did more and still had a 12 hour night. And then when the load was light the day shift always got Friday off while the night shift always got stuck coming in to clean.

The rest of the Western world does just fine. Even with all the vacation, holidays, and paid sick time off.

Sometimes it's necessary to fire people. I'm not their
daddy, who must support them like children.
Better than making employers coddle weak employees,
let schools train kids to have both skills & a work ethic.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think it is a general problem. Imagine a worker at Amazon, working for trinkets under horrible conditions while Jeff Bezos makes a vacation trip to space. I can't believe that that is fair.

Lamenting the fact that Bezos is fabulously rich is seems
more about jealousy. His wealth doesn't make employees
slaves. They can all go get better jobs....if they have the
drive & skills. But if no one else will give a low skill, low
ambition worker a better job...that's not his fault. Nay,
he's giving them the best job they can find.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I also don't buy failing to "impress during the interview"
being the cause of every job being crappy.

That's how I got to those jobs, like when I indicated many of the jobs didn't interview people. It's why I didn't get better jobs, and through those interviews learned what gestures and expression of expecting more look like. I didn't interview well, so I had to get some pretty crappy jobs, and as I indicated I wasn't the only one having problems.

Sometimes it's necessary to fire people. I'm not their
daddy, who must support them like children.

I know. I saved a guy from wrongful termination once (he was accused of being drunk on the job) just to turn around and fire him for what he was doing (sexual harassment).
But just to let someone go without notice is wrong. That's a part of what the discussion has revolved around. An employer terminating employment for any reason without notification.

 

[Revoltingest]

I know. I saved a guy from wrongful termination once (he was accused of being drunk on the job) just to turn around and fire him for what he was doing (sexual harassment).
But just to let someone go without notice is wrong. That's a part of what the discussion has revolved around. An employer terminating employment for any reason without notification.

Employees get to quit without notice.
It should be reciprocal. If I don't need someone,
or if they do wrong, I shouldn't be required to
keep paying them for a while.
I fired a guy who showed up drunk his first day.
There are a lotta drunks in property maintenance.
I worked with the ones who were still able to do
the job, & were sober on the job.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Employees get to quit without notice.
It should be reciprocal. If I don't need someone,
or if they do wrong, I shouldn't be required to
keep paying them for a while.
I fired a guy who showed up drunk his first day.
There are a lotta drunks in property maintenance.
I worked with the ones who were still able to do
the job, & were sober on the job.

That makes sense. They do their job sober, which is neccessary due to the increase risk of an accident from being drunk.
I am referring specifically to the for any reason and without notification part of at will employment. I agree to work, I get good marks (I was actually being told I'dget a permanent position), so it comes as a shock to be suddenly let go just because they decided today, rather than yesterday, they don't need you.

 

[Revoltingest]

That makes sense. They do their job sober, which is neccessary due to the increase risk of an accident from being drunk.
I am referring specifically to the for any reason and without notification part of at will employment. I agree to work, I get good marks (I was actually being told I'dget a permanent position), so it comes as a shock to be suddenly let go just because they decided today, rather than yesterday, they don't need you.

Giving a reason can be legally dangerous.
But layoff for not needing'm is relatively safe.
Employees shouldn't think they're guaranteed
a job until they decide they don't want it.
They should grow up....keep their skills up...
...be prepared for exigent circumstances, eg,
losing the job, having to move.
I am not their daddy (or mommy).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Giving a reason can be legally dangerous.
But layoff for not needing'm is relatively safe.
Employees shouldn't think they're guaranteed
a job until they decide they don't want it.
They should grow up....keep their skills up...
...be prepared for exigent circumstances, eg,
losing the job, having to move.
I am not their daddy (or mommy).

And yet the rest of the Western world does just fine with these protections and rights.
We don't expect you to be daddy, we expect employers to treat us well, decently, and like we're more than disposable cogs who serve at the pleasure of the corporation.

 

[JustGeorge]

Employees get to quit without notice.

Kinda. They have to give two weeks notice, or face it reflecting poorly on them the next time they seek employment. So, there is some consequence.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Kinda. They have to give two weeks notice, or face it reflecting poorly on them the next time they seek employment. So, there is some consequence.

Yup. While bad employers get to rely on the fact people need to work, and enjoy a revolving door of employees who come and go. So why should they better things and improve conditions? They rarely do unless they are pressured, with that pressure often coming from the state. Even Nixon of all people saw the need for government intervention to protect workers.

 

[Revoltingest]

And yet the rest of the Western world does just fine with these protections and rights.
We don't expect you to be daddy, we expect employers to treat us well, decently, and like we're more than disposable cogs who serve at the pleasure of the corporation.

You can have your countries where employers can't easily
fire workers who are bad or unneeded. And we're not arguing
over protections regarding health & safety.

 

[Revoltingest]

Kinda. They have to give two weeks notice, or face it reflecting poorly on them the next time they seek employment. So, there is some consequence.

2 weeks notice is merely customary.
It's not required by law.
Employers who give no termination notice or otherwise
mistreat people get a bad reputation too. For example,
I'd never work for GE. But GM treated workers well.
(I still turned down a couple offers there. I was no
longer employee material. Strictly a contractor.)

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You can have your countries where employers can't easily
fire workers who are bad or unneeded.

They can still fire them. It's just much harder to fore people for bs reasons and get rid of them when it's convenient.

 

[Kooky]

$25/hr paid vs $85/hr billed is a pretty reasonable margin.

I'd agree, provided I'm the one earning 85.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Employers who give no termination notice or otherwise
mistreat people get a bad reputation too.

Yup. But people got to work. There was a pizza joint in Kokomo, they basically had a permanent now hiring ad in the paper, and it turned into a permanent indeed.com listing. Everybody knew they are a crap employer. Didn't matter. People have to work and they didn't change their ways because there would be more coming to them for work. Amd they did. It's the same with the gas station, the same with the distribution center, the same with the inventory, the same with a driving job I had.

 

[Kooky]

Is the existence of some bad employers & some workers
who are incapable of finding a different job a good reason
to over-regulate employers, illegalize employment at will,
& force employers to become guardians/caretakers?

Yep.

 

[Revoltingest]

They can still fire them. It's just much harder to fore people for bs reasons and get rid of them when it's convenient.

What is "convenient".....save money?...poor worker?
...business slowdown?...hatred...threat posed?
I've canned people for a variety of "convenient"
reasons. Large employers must be careful
about their reasons because with deep pockets,
they're a target for ambulance chasers.

 

[Kooky]

Liberals are proposing eliminating at will employment.
Perhaps they'll next propose eliminating the employee's
right to quit....that'll fix the turnover problem.

And perhaps they'll next propose cats and dogs sleeping together, or declaring the color red to be blue and vice versa. Perhaps we'll all decide to walk on our hands tomorrow.

Who knows, the universe is random, anything could happen at any moment.

 

[Kooky]

I think it is a general problem. Imagine a worker at Amazon, working for trinkets under horrible conditions while Jeff Bezos makes a vacation trip to space. I can't believe that that is fair.

But Jeff Bezos is working a billion times as hard as that guy!