Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

No, I'm not going to do what you do. I get involved at the most in one or two threads started by other people and the hours fly by. Maybe Tony will do it?

In case you have not noticed I am not starting many new threads lately. It takes too much time.

 

[Trailblazer]

My indecisiveness or my mistrust of what religious people tell me is "absolutely, without a doubt the Truth"? 'Cause I get the same thing from Christians. And, I've already said this, we both would probably wish that they could not be so close-minded about their beliefs. Would you agree? Or are you okay with them being so sure that their false beliefs are true? I really hope not. But, then that's what religious people do. Once they believe, lots of them stop questioning and just go along with what their religion teaches, because they "know" it is the truth. I would hope all religious believers would entertain a little bit of doubt and uncertainty... even Baha'is.

It does not bother me if Christians are certain that what they believe is true. Why would that bother me?

Why would you hope that Baha'is would be uncertain of our beliefs? What other religion is there that is newer and better? Are we supposed to entertain the possibility that maybe one of the older religions is true and we have been duped? There is not a snowball's chance in hell that is the case from where I am standing. Moreover, it is logically impossible because there would be too much to have to explain away if the Baha'i Faith was a false religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

I personally like the thought of reincarnation. I wouldn't mind coming back as a different person. And, if there is such a thing as a soul or spirit, I think it would be a great opportunity to learn and experience life.

I would never want to come back to earth again after I die. I can't think of any worse punishment so I could never believe God would be that cruel. I believe we have this one chance to learn and get it right and that is why this life is so important.

 

[Trailblazer]

But expect to be challenged and asked why you hold those beliefs. And because Baha'is say they believe in all those other religions, then Baha'is will especially be questioned as to why they contradict some of the thing in the Scriptures of those other religions.

We have already told you the reason so why keep asking? What is it that you don't understand that I have told you or is it just that you do not accept what I have told you? Why doesn't it make sense?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My indecisiveness or my mistrust of what religious people tell me is "absolutely, without a doubt the Truth"? 'Cause I get the same thing from Christians. And, I've already said this, we both would probably wish that they could not be so close-minded about their beliefs. Would you agree? Or are you okay with them bein so sure that their false beliefs are true? I really hope not. But, then that's what religious people do. Once they believe, lots of them stop questioning and just go along with what their religion teaches, because they "know" it is the truth. I would hope all religious believers would entertain a little bit of doubt and uncertainty... even Baha'is.

I personally do not think a strong faith is a bad thing, the issue is when the strength blinds us to the possibilities.

A Baha'i now faces the same and also different challenges. As we have excepted all the Messengers, we can look for the good in all past faiths, but that will be looked on by people of those faiths as being wrong. We can not change their choice to see it that way.

The bounty I see is we now have a guide, an exemplar showing us what was offerd by all past Messengers and also have a book of Laws that shows what laws have been replaced, what laws have been kept and what new laws we need to embrace.

Our challenge is the same as all Faiths have had, that is for us to live according to that Message. As noted above the bounty in this age is that we have been given the example, who was Abdu'lbaha, that was Baha'u'llah's gift to us. Abdu'lbaha knew from a very young age who his father was and devoted his life to what service to humanity is all about.

If one studies the life of Abdu'lbaha, it is easy to see how we fail many of the set standards.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Jews say Isaac. Baha'is say Ishmael. Born again Christians say Jesus rose from the dead. Abdul Baha', so therefore Baha'is, say it was allegorical. And that's okay. You can be different. But expect to be challenged and asked why you hold those beliefs. And because Baha'is say they believe in all those other religions, then Baha'is will especially be questioned as to why they contradict some of the thing in the Scriptures of those other religions.

We can only give the answer that is shown in the writings, or we can offer an opinion that is our understanding.

That is all we can do.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, it is interesting how they have put all the pieces together. I think that they forced some of those pieces to get them to fit.

I see it differently, I see the puzzle is eternal in size, we can only put some pieces in place and onky get a vision relative to our understanding. That picture is not wrong, it is just part of a bigger puzzle that is still being put together. We do not get to see the whole elephant in this life. We are in a womb, a matrix, so how can we see all the puzzle?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Can you explain this...

Let no one, however, mistake my purpose. The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest 58 degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings.​

Baha'is here on the forum have said that the Baha'i Faith "abrogates" the other religions. What did they mean? And whittling down? Baha'is do "whittle" down, but I suppose Baha'is think that those are not the "eternal" verities to the teachings but wrong teachings? So, to some of us, the Baha'i Faith is whittling and abrogating and giving a different interpretation of the teachings of those other religions... a Baha'i interpretation. And, since most of us here would agree, whittle them down and abrogate their whacked out beliefs, so why did Abdul Baha' make it seem like Baha'is don't do that?

The spiritual teachings and their meaning are not Abrogated.

What is abrogated is some laws and practices of past religions.

Here is a PDF of a list of abrogated laws.

Spoiler: Abrogated laws and practices

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...cQFnoECCAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1TZE1HrlWRA08drGaSp0Cd

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

In case you have not noticed I am not starting many new threads lately. It takes too much time.

I know you're busy enough dealing with all of us here on this thread.

 

[CG Didymus]

I would never want to come back to earth again after I die. I can't think of any worse punishment so I could never believe God would be that cruel. I believe we have this one chance to learn and get it right and that is why this life is so important.

And I think that is cruel. How many people got is right? I think most get it wrong. And what's worse so many are born into a situation where they have no chance. So the reason I'm saying it would be good is so that the soul can look back at what it was like when they had nothing, and look back when they were well off and all the places in-between and see how well they handled the different situations.

 

[samtonga43]

...obviously all those positions cannot be true since they are contradictory.

Yes, I completely agree. I know that all of these positions cannot be true. Can you say the same?[/QUOTE]

 

[samtonga43]

It does not bother me if Christians are certain that what they believe is true. Why would that bother me?
Why would you hope that Baha'is would be uncertain of our beliefs? What other religion is there that is newer and better? Are we supposed to entertain the possibility that maybe one of the older religions is true and we have been duped? There is not a snowball's chance in hell that is the case from where I am standing. Moreover, it is logically impossible because there would be too much to have to explain away if the Baha'i Faith was a false religion.

What would you have to explain away, Tb?

 

[samtonga43]

The spiritual teachings and their meaning are not Abrogated.

What is abrogated is some laws and practices of past religions.

Here is a PDF of a list of abrogated laws.

Spoiler: Abrogated laws and practices

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...cQFnoECCAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1TZE1HrlWRA08drGaSp0Cd

Regards Tony

Clothes and music abrogated?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Clothes and music abrogated?

No. The Bab's Bayan was a radical change from Islamic Law, its purpose to show that God does as God wills. The Bayan was left unfinished by the Bab, who stated that it was up to whom God made Manifest to complete the Bayan and to choose or repeal anything from the Bayan.

Baha'u'llah then reveal the Kitab-i-aqdas (Book of Laws) which set the Laws for this Dispensation.

So the Kitab-i-aqdas also abrogated some of the Bab's Laws, even though the dispensation of the Bab was very short.

Spoiler: Kitab-i-aqdas

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library

So this is the passage where Baha'u'llah changes that law.

"159 It hath been forbidden you to carry arms unless essential, and permitted you to attire yourselves in silk. The Lord hath relieved you, as a bounty on His part, of the restrictions that formerly applied to clothing and to the trim of the beard. He, verily, is the Ordainer, the Omniscient. Let there be naught in your demeanor of which sound and upright minds would disapprove, and make not yourselves the playthings of the ignorant. Well is it with him who hath adorned himself with the vesture of seemly conduct and a praiseworthy character. He is assuredly reckoned with those who aid their Lord through distinctive and outstanding deeds."

Then there is the Law of what is acceptable, and it offers modesty must drive the choice of clothing.

Music and the arts likewise allows for our spiritual growth and not music and arts that feed our animal instincts.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And I think that is cruel. How many people got is right? I think most get it wrong. And what's worse so many are born into a situation where they have no chance. So the reason I'm saying it would be good is so that the soul can look back at what it was like when they had nothing, and look back when they were well off and all the places in-between and see how well they handled the different situations.

That is life CG and it also allows us to Love unconditionally.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

And I think that is cruel. How many people got is right? I think most get it wrong. And what's worse so many are born into a situation where they have no chance.

I believe that God takes all that into account because God is just.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, I completely agree. I know that all of these positions cannot be true. Can you say the same?

I just said the same.

 

[Trailblazer]

What would you have to explain away, Tb?

For one thing.....

Above Haifa, Israel, stands Mt. Carmel where the Baha’i World Centre is located.

 

[Truthseeker]

Can I ask you, Truthseeker ... do you, like Tb, KNOW that what you believe is true?

Just about, if you mean do I believe that Baha'u'llah is the latest Prophet. I'm not sure whether my opinion of what the Writings mean is right. Does that bother you? You keep pestering her about that.

 

[Truthseeker]

Here's a claim. I posted this on Tony's thread also. Why believe it without some real proof?

“It was disclosed to me through Divine revelation a few years later that the Messiah that had been promised from the earliest time to this nation and that the last Mahdī who was destined to appear after the deterioration of Islam and who was to be granted direct guidance from God and who was to provide once again the spiritual nourishment, as had been preordained and about whom glad tidings had also been given by the Holy Prophet, may peace and blessings of Allāh be upon him, himself 1300 years ago, is none other than me. Divine revelations, in this regard, came to me so clearly and persistently that no room for even the least doubt was left in this matter.”​

Nope. He has to demonstrate it with his fruits. You have to determine, for instance, if this person is prone to lie. Does he have good character? Does he bring out the best in others that he crosses? Do his writings make sense? Does his writings explain mysteries that seem like could not come from an ordinary human? Etc.