Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

Take a strong believer out of every religion and even every sect of every religion and see what they say about why they think what they believe is true. I'd suspect the answers would be very similar, yet they all believe in something very different. What do you think? We've probably got people here on the forum we could ask.

You could start a new thread on that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Or do you want to revise your statement to something like, "The Baha'is believe 'originally' all religions were true, then all of them got screwed up with false beliefs and doctrines."

That is what I meant, as you should know by now since I have posted that passage about how religions have been corrupted a dozen times.

 

[Trailblazer]

Again, you haven't learned anything new since then? And everything you've learned only confirms what you believe? And nothing at least makes you wonder if what you believe is the truth or not? And you're not biased but can still look at things objectively?

I have learned scads of new things about the Baha'i Faith since I started posting on forums nine years ago. Everything I have learned confirmed what I already believed. I have the atheists and Christians to thank for solidifying my beliefs such that they are now rock solid. That is because the more I got challenged the more I had to meet the challenge which required more and more reading, including the Bible.

Again, why would i still wonder if the Baha'i Faith is true after 51 years. I think you are projecting your indecisiveness onto me. I am very indecisive about certain things like whether to retire, but I am not indecisive about what I know is true.

 

[Trailblazer]

But they are trying to grow. How successful are they at getting and keeping new members? They were talking "entry by troops" fifty years ago, what happened?

I think the Baha'i were being overly optimistic. It could also be that those Baha'is got older and now they just sit in devotionals and prayer meetings and book club meetings instead of getting out to teach. It does not help that the UHJ says we need to focus on building our own Baha'i communities because what is the point if we don't ever get new members?

I am not worried though because I know that eventually the Faith will grow large because Baha'u'llah said "The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth." I very much doubt that will happen while I am still alive on earth. but since Abdu'l-Baha said there is no real separation between those who reside on earth and those who are in the spiritual world i expect I will be able to see the triumph of the Cause of God and I hope to be able to assist.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Place, in all circumstances, Thy whole trust in Thy Lord, and fix Thy gaze upon Him, and turn away from all them that repudiate His truth. Let God, Thy Lord, be Thy sufficing succorer and helper. We have pledged Ourselves to secure Thy triumph upon earth and to exalt Our Cause above all men, though no king be found who would turn his face towards Thee.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 248-249

I never noticed the second part of that passage where Baha'u'llah says to turn away from all them that repudiate His truth. But don't worry, I won't abandon you as long as you are still searching. I just hope that does not continue til that day you die.

 

[samtonga43]

But don't worry, I won't abandon you as long as you are still searching. I just hope that does not continue til that day you die.

You have searched and, because of the evidence you have found, know that Bahai'ism is true?

Do you think it is possible that CG has searched, and, because of the evidence he has found, knows that atheism is true?

Do you think it is possible that I have searched, and, because of the evidence I have found, know that Christianity is true?

Note, I am simply asking if each of these positions is valid.

 

[samtonga43]

Not really, not to some cult. In fact, I recommend in any religion to decide for yourself and not follow some denomination or sect of a religion that tells you how you should think pretty much. That habit of not thinking for yourself has led to the dilemma where 78% of Republicans believe that Biden didn't win the last election.

Can I ask you, Truthseeker ... do you, like Tb, KNOW that what you believe is true?

 

[Muffled]

I think it is important as a Baha'i beliefs, because then they can more easily give a reason why Christian doctrines and beliefs are wrong, and why it took Baha'u'llah to "unseal" the book and give a "true" interpretation of the Bible. Which of course makes him the return of Christ.

I believe they imagine a great deal of self serving stuff. I am sure there can be a lot of Christian philosophy that is wrong but a Bah'ai philosopher isn't going to do any better.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have searched and, because of the evidence you have found, know that Bahai'ism is true?

Do you think it is possible that CG has searched, and, because of the evidence he has found, knows that atheism is true?

Do you think it is possible that I have searched, and, because of the evidence I have found, know that Christianity is true?

Note, I am simply asking if each of these positions is valid.

Good question. Each of those positions is valid for the "holder" of that position, but obviously all those positions cannot be true since they are contradictory.

In other words, what we know is not proof that anything is true. A belief is either true or false.
It is not the evidence that makes it true or false, a belief is simply true or false in reality. Evidence is just what people want and need in order to determine what is true or false.

What you are asking is related to another post I just responded to: #385 Trailblazer, 5 minutes ago

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe they imagine a great deal of self serving stuff. I am sure there can be a lot of Christian philosophy that is wrong but a Bah'ai philosopher isn't going to do any better.

The main point of a God fiven Faith is not to be self serving.

Faith is all about giving all you can to others.

That is also the greatest proof of the Messengers, and thus becomes the greatest test for a follower. It is also the standard all are judged against.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

No, it does not teach that. It just helps us understand the other religions.

Can you explain this...

Let no one, however, mistake my purpose. The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest 58 degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings.​

Baha'is here on the forum have said that the Baha'i Faith "abrogates" the other religions. What did they mean? And whittling down? Baha'is do "whittle" down, but I suppose Baha'is think that those are not the "eternal" verities to the teachings but wrong teachings? So, to some of us, the Baha'i Faith is whittling and abrogating and giving a different interpretation of the teachings of those other religions... a Baha'i interpretation. And, since most of us here would agree, whittle them down and abrogate their whacked out beliefs, so why did Abdul Baha' make it seem like Baha'is don't do that?

 

[CG Didymus]

And that's the problem the "true" seeker finds whatever truth they are looking into... whether the Baha'i Faith or any other religion or even some religious cult. And that's the other problem. They go all-in to what that religion teaches as true.

There's truth in every religion. Christianity, Islam, Baha'i or whatever.

And does that make every religion true? I'm sure there's some "truth" in every cult too, but would you recommend that a person get involved with one them?

Here's a claim. I posted this on Tony's thread also. Why believe it without some real proof?

“It was disclosed to me through Divine revelation a few years later that the Messiah that had been promised from the earliest time to this nation and that the last Mahdī who was destined to appear after the deterioration of Islam and who was to be granted direct guidance from God and who was to provide once again the spiritual nourishment, as had been preordained and about whom glad tidings had also been given by the Holy Prophet, may peace and blessings of Allāh be upon him, himself 1300 years ago, is none other than me. Divine revelations, in this regard, came to me so clearly and persistently that no room for even the least doubt was left in this matter.”​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Here's a claim. I posted this on Tony's thread also. Why believe it without some real proof?

“It was disclosed to me through Divine revelation a few years later that the Messiah that had been promised from the earliest time to this nation and that the last Mahdī who was destined to appear after the deterioration of Islam and who was to be granted direct guidance from God and who was to provide once again the spiritual nourishment, as had been preordained and about whom glad tidings had also been given by the Holy Prophet, may peace and blessings of Allāh be upon him, himself 1300 years ago, is none other than me. Divine revelations, in this regard, came to me so clearly and persistently that no room for even the least doubt was left in this matter.”​

No Doubt about Proof.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you explain this...

Let no one, however, mistake my purpose. The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest 58 degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings.​

Baha'is here on the forum have said that the Baha'i Faith "abrogates" the other religions. What did they mean? And whittling down? Baha'is do "whittle" down, but I suppose Baha'is think that those are not the "eternal" verities to the teachings but wrong teachings? So, to some of us, the Baha'i Faith is whittling and abrogating and giving a different interpretation of the teachings of those other religions... a Baha'i interpretation. And, since most of us here would agree, whittle them down and abrogate their whacked out beliefs, so why did Abdul Baha' make it seem like Baha'is don't do that?

No, Baha'is are not whittling down other religions in the sense that Shoghi Effendi wrote. We are not dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past or whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. Giving a different interpretation of 'some' of the scriptures of those other religions is not whittling down those religions. We simply disagree with what the leaders of those past religions taught their followers because we do not believe that the Prophets of the past ever taught those things.

 

[CG Didymus]

Not really, not to some cult. In fact, I recommend in any religion to decide for yourself and not follow some denomination or sect of a religion that tells you how you should think pretty much. That habit of not thinking for yourself has led to the dilemma where 78% of Republicans believe that Biden didn't win the last election.

And that's exactly the problem. In a way they are thinking for themselves. They chosen to believe that the election was rigged. They believe there is evidence. Same with a religion or a religious cult. All they need is a charismatic leader... a persuasive speaker, or a miracle worker. For some of them, the investigating stops once they join. Then, they follow what is taught even if it is something that might have kept them from joining before. Now it is too late. They've committed themselves to believe it all.

Of course, Baha'is believe it is the absolute truth from God. And if it is, they should follow it with all their heart. But, Christians are doing the same thing. They believe all sorts of things like Satan is deceiving the whole world. That they will be raptured. Then the Young Earthers and their very literal beliefs about creation.

It'd be nice if their minds were still open to the possibility that they could be wrong... And without prejudices, look at the facts and evidence. But no, they find the "facts" and "evidence" that supports their beliefs. And that is what Baha'is are doing also. But, like I said, I understand that Baha'is do it because they absolutely, with certainty, think that what they believe is the truth.

And here is an example... On this thread I was asking about Isaiah chapter 7. I agree with the Jews. It is not a Messianic prophecy and has nothing to do with the Messiah being born of a virgin. The only Baha'i response I got was that Christians and Baha'is are right... Jews are wrong. Sorry, but I don't see that as studying that chapter without the preconceived belief that the Baha'i Faith is the truth. One verse, taken out of context, by one gospel writer and only one other gospel writer mentions the virgin birth, gospels that were written long after the event, by people that weren't there? But the Baha'is, to me, seemed to brush off all of that.

And I don't even necessarily believe any of it really happened. But, I do believe the story in Isaiah, in context, is about the King of Judah getting a sign. Whether it really happened or not, who knows. Since I'd imagine it was written after the fact. Same with the "virgin" birth... Written after the fact. And the writer of Matthew could easily have scoured the Septuagint for verses he could make into prophecies. And, I think he did, several more times, not just with Isaiah 7:14. Something about Ramah crying and he will be called a Nazarene.

 

[CG Didymus]

You could start a new thread on that.

No, I'm not going to do what you do. I get involved at the most in one or two threads started by other people and the hours fly by. Maybe Tony will do it?

 

[CG Didymus]

I think you are projecting your indecisiveness onto me. I am very indecisive about certain things like whether to retire, but I am not indecisive about what I know is true.

My indecisiveness or my mistrust of what religious people tell me is "absolutely, without a doubt the Truth"? 'Cause I get the same thing from Christians. And, I've already said this, we both would probably wish that they could not be so close-minded about their beliefs. Would you agree? Or are you okay with them being so sure that their false beliefs are true? I really hope not. But, then that's what religious people do. Once they believe, lots of them stop questioning and just go along with what their religion teaches, because they "know" it is the truth. I would hope all religious believers would entertain a little bit of doubt and uncertainty... even Baha'is.

 

[CG Didymus]

You have searched and, because of the evidence you have found, know that Bahai'ism is true?

Do you think it is possible that CG has searched, and, because of the evidence he has found, knows that atheism is true?

Do you think it is possible that I have searched, and, because of the evidence I have found, know that Christianity is true?

Note, I am simply asking if each of these positions is valid.

I'm open to whatever the "truth" might be. Christian, Baha'i or something else? I personally like the thought of reincarnation. I wouldn't mind coming back as a different person. And, if there is such a thing as a soul or spirit, I think it would be a great opportunity to learn and experience life.

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe they imagine a great deal of self serving stuff. I am sure there can be a lot of Christian philosophy that is wrong but a Bah'ai philosopher isn't going to do any better.

Well, it is interesting how they have put all the pieces together. I think that they forced some of those pieces to get them to fit.

 

[CG Didymus]

Good question. Each of those positions is valid for the "holder" of that position, but obviously all those positions cannot be true since they are contradictory.

In other words, what we know is not proof that anything is true. A belief is either true or false.
It is not the evidence that makes it true or false, a belief is simply true or false in reality. Evidence is just what people want and need in order to determine what is true or false.

What you are asking is related to another post I just responded to: #385 Trailblazer, 5 minutes ago

There is no doubt that a Baha'is following the teachings of the Baha'i Faith will become a better person. Same with a person in most any religion, even in some religious cults. But they all believe something different. I know some awesome Krishna people and other Hindus that believe all sorts of things that Baha'is say aren't true. And, same with Christians. Pentecostal, JW's or Mormons, there's some great people in all of them. But they all believe something different, and they all believe it with a high degree of certainty. What the common thing between them? They all "believe". They believe, so they follow the rules and the moral codes and they become better people.

I wouldn't doubt that some of those beliefs are totally man-made and false, but they still work. That is my main point.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, Baha'is are not whittling down other religions in the sense that Shoghi Effendi wrote. We are not dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past or whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. Giving a different interpretation of 'some' of the scriptures of those other religions is not whittling down those religions. We simply disagree with what the leaders of those past religions taught their followers because we do not believe that the Prophets of the past ever taught those things.

Jews say Isaac. Baha'is say Ishmael. Born again Christians say Jesus rose from the dead. Abdul Baha', so therefore Baha'is, say it was allegorical. And that's okay. You can be different. But expect to be challenged and asked why you hold those beliefs. And because Baha'is say they believe in all those other religions, then Baha'is will especially be questioned as to why they contradict some of the thing in the Scriptures of those other religions.