Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Tiberius]

What spiritual means is a whole different subject and a big subject. In short, the attributes of man's spiritual nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher spiritual nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature.

Which gives it plenty of scope to be interpreted in many different ways, of course. I see that as a problem.

No, it is just reality. Religious beliefs cannot be tested like scientific theories but they can be put to our own tests.

And since they can't be verified at all, we can never justify claiming that we KNOW them to be true, can we?

I don't know what evidence you are talking about. Evidence for what?

That Baha'i is true. I was very clear about it.

Oh, what are those mechanisms and how do they remove personal biases when it comes to religious beliefs or anything else such as political stances people take?

Peer review. I get other people to test the same thing as me. Let's say I am trying to find out what the speed of light is. I do an experiment and I get a result. I write up how I did the experiment and what my result was, and other people read it. They look at it, and they can point out if they think I made a mistake. And they can repeat my experiment and see if they get the same result. And they can also come up with a different experiment and see if they still get the same result as me.

So any personal biases are eliminated, because I get other people to do the experiment, and they will not have the same personal biases as me. And any mistakes in my method have a good chance of being spotted, so they can be eliminated. And with the same thing being tested in different ways, any flaws inherent with the method I used can be eliminated.

 

[Tiberius]

Sure, there are claims in the Writings but that is not what most of the Writings are about!

Think about it. If there were no claims in His Writings how could we ever know what He claimed?

Baha’u’llah’s Two Bold Claims

All of which leads us back to Baha’u’llah, who made two very bold claims. First, he declared he was God’s messenger for the next one thousand years, having the same divine authority, the same Holy Spirit, the same divine power, as Moses, Christ, Muhammad, and the other founders of the major world religions:

In the East the light of [God’s] Revelation hath broken; in the West have appeared the signs of His dominion. Ponder this in your hearts, O people, and be not of those who have turned a deaf ear to the admonitions of Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Praised. Let the Breeze of God awaken you. Verily, it hath wafted over the world. Well is it with him that hath discovered the fragrance thereof and been accounted among the well-assured. – Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah.

This station, by itself, makes the Baha’i Faith the youngest of the major world religions.

Baha’u’llah made a second and even more challenging claim. He declared he was the promised world messiah foretold in all the prophecies, in all the holy books, of all the religions of the world – the one promised to come on the Day of Judgment, the Day of God, the Time of the End, the End of the World, to establish the kingdom of God on Earth.

Baha’u’llah declared this period in history as the Day of God, the Time of the End. His mission is nothing less than the establishment of this glorious kingdom – the unification of the entire human race into an all-embracing, spiritually mature world civilization based upon divine principles of justice and love, and whose watchword will be unity in diversity.

With this second claim, Baha’is believe that all of the religions of the world have been consummated and fulfilled with the coming of Baha’u’llah.

https://bahaiteachings.org/what-did-bahaullah-teach?

You miss my point.

THE WRITINGS CAME FROM MR B.

If I have no reason to accept what he says until I am presented with sufficient evidence, then what he says can not be included in that evidence, since I have not yet been convinced of it's sufficiency.

 

[Tiberius]

What's your point?

My point is that Mr B's writing can't be used as evidence to support him because at the time I take them as evidence, Mr B and his writings have not yet been supported.

 

[samtonga43]

The problem you have is that none of the Manifestations of God ever said "I am God."

LOL! It’s not my problem; it’s yours. It is you who has to somehow show that the following two statements, both written by the B.man, do not contradict each other:

1. “Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto.
2. “…through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.......”
You have not done this. (Although I am sure you think you have)

A person who reveals God’s “names and attributes” is not God Himself. You seem to recognize this here:
“Moreover, a Manifestation OF GOD is not by definition GOD. A Manifestation of God manifests God's attributes, and that means there are two separate entities, (1) God and (2) the Manifestation of God.”
But you contradict this by saying that if the B.man said he was God, he would be speaking truth.

And what truth is that?
That the B.man is God.

 

[samtonga43]

Only according to Christian beliefs, but those are just beliefs, not facts.

According to Bahia beliefs, this statement:
“The Spirit of Truth came, almost 2000 years before the B,man was ever heard of.”...
is just a belief.

Look at the bolded words and think, Tb. Logically.

 

[samtonga43]

How many people that Baha'is say are manifestations made that claim? And Trailblazer goes out of her way to show that Jesus never claimed to be God. So who made this claim? Maybe all the incarnations of Vishnu and some of the other Hindu Gods? Time and time again I ask how do Baha'is make Adam, Noah, Abraham and even Moses manifestations? Even Christians and Jews don't make them manifestations. And what religion did they "found"? They are all from the same religion.

I didn't realize that they say that Adam was a manifestation. This makes no sense. Are you sure they believe this?

 

[samtonga43]

I think you all are being to harsh on @TB. She has said before she only has an MA in counseling psychology which is an 18 month arts degree. She does not claim to have an MA in science or an MA in medical degree in psychology.

She has also stated many times, she is here for entertainment purposes, not to convince any one else she has the truth about all things God or the proof that her religion is the "truth".

What is probably very interesting to her and most who observe the back and forth, circular and repeated, non changing arguments, is that people continue to engage in them. Thousands of posts of the same back and forth yet people continue to want to try to convince her she is wrong in her logic. No matter how many try, they always fail to escape the circular logic and the urge to expose the percieved double speak. It is like an irresistible challenge to be the one to finally prove her wrong.

That will never happen but it provides entertainment. Like true crime shows, the psychology of it all is just plain addictive in trying to understand it and impossible to turn away from.
There will always be new attempts at proving her wrong with the same exact arguments because there is an endless supply of curious people who believe they can achieve the impossible.

One would think it would grow old but it never seems to. Why that is, is the really interesting question.

What do you think, wandering peacefully? I mean, about why it 'never grows old'?

Love your quote!

 

[samtonga43]

It has always been different messages from different Messengers as there would be no reason for God to send a new Messenger unless He has a new message.

Exactly. There is no new message, so there is no new messenger.

 

[PruePhillip]

Yes they do, since you are suggesting that it's a temporal quantum entanglement.



Please go into more details regarding what happened before further explanation can be formulated.

One of those square fan heaters - omitted the 'square'
I suggest when we get feelings about things we don't get a clear picture and we fill in details.
That's my experience anyhow.
One constant premonition you should encounter is old people knowing, to the day, when they
are leaving this life. True story of a nurse who would listen to elderly folk having 'encounters'
with departed relatives who would tell them when they would die, ie in two or three days. That
nurse would contact the living rels and inform them their beloved has two or three days to live.
That account came from Peter Fenwick, a 'neuropsychiatrist and neurophysiologist who is known
for his pioneering studies of end-of-life phenomena.'

 

[night912]

One of those square fan heaters - omitted the 'square'

I wasn't asking about the fan. I was asking for more details regarding his "vision" and the time that he was actually playing with his kids a couple years later. In order for it to be considered as a "true" premonition, in regards to temporal quantum entanglement, his vision must be exactly the same as the actual event that took place in the future.

That's the common problem with people who believe that they had a premonition. Their vision may have been similar to the actual future event, but it wasn't exactly the same. Being similar in theme and/or idea but not identical, means that it's not a premonition of the actual future event.

I once had a dream about George W Bush publicly making a speech declaring war on Iraq. Then about two weeks later, he made his public speech and the war with Iraq started. When I saw his actual speech on tv, it did remind me of my dream, but I simply dismiss it since his actual speech wasn't identical to what happened in my dream.

 

[PruePhillip]

I wasn't asking about the fan. I was asking for more details regarding his "vision" and the time that he was actually playing with his kids a couple years later. In order for it to be considered as a "true" premonition, in regards to temporal quantum entanglement, his vision must be exactly the same as the actual event that took place in the future.

That's the common problem with people who believe that they had a premonition. Their vision may have been similar to the actual future event, but it wasn't exactly the same. Being similar in theme and/or idea but not identical, means that it's not a premonition of the actual future event.

I once had a dream about George W Bush publicly making a speech declaring war on Iraq. Then about two weeks later, he made his public speech and the war with Iraq started. When I saw his actual speech on tv, it did remind me of my dream, but I simply dismiss it since his actual speech wasn't identical to what happened in my dream.

Yes, I told my mother that mid year, next year, I think her mother was going to die.
It was a fuzzy premonition. My mother was alarmed because sometimes I would
bring these premonitions to her. Rarely have them now.
It was June 30th, to be exact, we learned my sister had terminal cancer. So no-one
died, my grandmother had many more years. So I suppose if it wasn't coincidental
then I was interpreting something - not fully seeing.
A good source of wonderment about strange phenomona is to read a book about
twins - some well documented stuff there about thing which shouldn't really happen.

 

[Trailblazer]

But you contradict this by saying that if the B.man said he was God, he would be speaking truth.

Baha'u'llah never said that if He said he was God he would be speaking the truth.
He said:

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world…… Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 54-55

 

[paarsurrey]

Bahaullah did not claim publicly, I understand, in the Iqan or in the pre-Iqan period that:

1. Bahaullah received any direct Converse from God/Allah/YHVH
2. that Bahaullah was appointed a Messenger by God/Allah/YHVH
3. Bahaullah, I understand, took the Covenant from others but he himself did not.

One may check it from Iqan*.
Regards

*Friend @samtonga43 , please.

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

According to Bahia beliefs, this statement:
“The Spirit of Truth came, almost 2000 years before the B,man was ever heard of.”...
is just a belief.

Look at the bolded words and think, Tb. Logically.

This has NOTHING to do with logic.

We BOTH have beliefs, and beliefs can never be proven true or false.
However, that does not mean that beliefs cannot be true or false. They are either true or false.
I know my beliefs are true so that means I know your beliefs are false, since they are contradictory beliefs.
Please don't tell me I don't know that, I only believe it, because I do know it.
HOW I know is not something you can understand because YOU are not ME.

 

[Trailblazer]

Exactly. There is no new message, so there is no new messenger.

God has sent three new Messengers with three new messages since Jesus - Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
The gospel message is like old news and is not what humanity needs is this New Day.

There is nothing Christians can do to thwart the Will of God, so their only option is to cling to Jesus and believe and that is what most of them do.

 

[paarsurrey]

Friend @infrabenji , please.
I posted following in another thread vide post #134 , please.
Do Atheists Have Faith?
Did the Atheism people ever say that they have not faith in Atheism, please?
They do have faith in Atheism. Right?
Regards
OOO
Do Atheists Have Faith?
If we say the Atheism people have no faith in Atheism, will they be happy with it?
I don't think so. Right?
Regards

 

[samtonga43]

Baha'u'llah never said that if He said he was God he would be speaking the truth.

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto.

Who said the above?
Wasn't the B.Man a manifestation of God?

 

[samtonga43]

This has NOTHING to do with logic.

We BOTH have beliefs, and beliefs can never be proven true or false.
However, that does not mean that beliefs cannot be true or false. They are either true or false.
I know my beliefs are true so that means I know your beliefs are false, since they are contradictory beliefs.
Please don't tell me I don't know that, I only believe it, because I do know it.
HOW I know is not something you can understand because YOU are not ME.

No. You believe you KNOW. You are mistaken. You believe, but have convinced your self that this belief is knowledge. It's not.

 

[samtonga43]

God has sent three new Messengers with three new messages since Jesus - Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
The gospel message is like old news and is not what humanity needs is this New Day.

The Gospel message has everything we need for all time.
"I am the first and the last" (Isa. 44:6)
"From everlasting to everlasting thou art God" (Ps. 90:2)
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." (Rev 1:8, NIV)

There is nothing any one of us can do to thwart the Will of God. Even Mr.B.

 

[PruePhillip]

God has sent three new Messengers with three new messages since Jesus - Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
The gospel message is like old news and is not what humanity needs is this New Day.

There is nothing Christians can do to thwart the Will of God, so their only option is to cling to Jesus and believe and that is what most of them do.

God sent three messengers since Jesus?
I Googled 'differences between Jesus and Mohammed' and got 7,760,000 hits.
Try it.