Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Tiberius]

I am not suggesting you believe in a Messenger before you get evidence for the Messenger that is sufficient for you to believe.

I really don't know why you think that people start out wanting to have a certain belief, BEFORE they have looked at any evidence and conversely, why they would be reluctant to accept the strongest evidence for that which they DON'T want to believe. What examples do you have of people doing this?

Kids are usually brought up to have the same faith as their parents, and when they get older, they tend to accept evidence that supports their beliefs and reject evidence that disagrees with their beliefs. There are lots of cases of people holding a belief and then accepting or rejecting the evidence based purely on whether it agrees with that belief. Flat Earthers and anti-vaxxers do it all the time, not to mention all the anti-evolution creationists.

 

[Tiberius]

Yes, I think it is going to be the case because what Baha'u'llah revealed was very progressive, so most people living in today's society are not yet ready to accept the teachings and principles and Laws He revealed 150 years ago, let alone put them into practice. I believe that over the course of time people will slowly start accepting them and practicing them, as more people join the Baha'i Faith..

How about you tell us some of these teachings that you think people today aren't ready for.

What Baha'u'llah wrote in the 19th century was not written just for the 19th century. In fact, the people living back then were not even ready to hear and accept these new social teachings and new Laws, and that is one reason the Muslims persecuted Baha'u'llah and banished and exiled Him from place to place. For example, equal rights and education for women is not something that Islam teaches.

But in today's world, barely 200 years later, such ideas are held by most people, and those that don't are viewed as backwards. Can you give any examples of his teachings that you think people won't be ready for in 300 years?

Baha'u'llah's Writings were written for the age we are living in and will be applicable throughout this age, until the next Messenger appears. Of course He knew exactly what humanity would need in this age, He got His knowledge from God who is all-knowing. If you don' think that Baha'u'llah had the ability to look into the future, look at everything He predicted that all came to pass.

Okay, let's not get into the whole prophecy thing, because I don't care to repeat that dance in a circle that never went anywhere.

But you said it will be applicable in this age, which is going to last another 800 years or so, yes? Can you tell me what teachings of his are applicable to the internet? To genetic modification? Space travel?

You see, if you are right and he could not only see the future but he also received information from God that would guide us through the next 800 years, then the information must apply to the new technologies that we have today that Mr B could not conceive of (like genetic modification), but also to the future technologies that haven't even been thought of yet. And yet information about these technologies and the best way to use them should be included in his teachings, yes?

As I said before, much of what Baha'u'llah wrote has not yet been translated into English. Although we are assured that we have the Writings that we need now to start building the new world order, more Writings will be translated as time goes on.

I hope you aren't going to try saying that the information about these new technologies is contained within those writings...

There is important to note something I have not mentioned. The Universal House of Justice (UHJ) who will provide further guidance to the Baha'is throughout the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah and if something is not covered in the Writings of Baha'u'llah, they have the authority vested in them by Baha'u'llah to legislate upon whatever arises.

So we've gone from "Mr B gave us everything we need to know," to, "Just in case there's something we need to know that Mr B didn't say..."

BTW, I didn't need the cut and paste about it.

I have no idea what you are talking about, what spirits, what bones?

Do you not even bother to read what you cut and paste? The passages were using the metaphor of treatments and ailments and remedies. I thought my analogy was quite clear.

Those two passages are not contradictory, but I can understand how they might have seemed that way.
Allow me to explain what they mean.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

In the passage above Baha'u'llah is saying that what we need in the present age is not the same as what we will need in a future age, and that is why God will be sending another Messenger in the future (a process that will continue as long as humanity exists.) In the last sentence He said that we need to be concerned with the requirements of age in which we are living.

“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

In the passage above, Baha'u'llah is saying that the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day can never be identical to the treatment that was prescribed in the past ages because the ills of humanity differ from age to age.

Yeah, still doesn't make sense.

Let's say there are two ages. We'll have Age A, and then some time later, we'll have Age B.

Your first quote is someone in Age A saying, "What will be needed in Age B will be DIFFERENT to what we need in Age A, because our present day afflictions can never be the same as what will be afflicting us in future ages (like Age B)."

The second quote is someone in Age B saying, "Why shouldn't the treatments that what we need today in Age B be THE SAME as what we needed in Age A?"

The Messenger can be likened to a Divine Physician who prescribes the remedy that humanity needs in the age in which He appears. For example, Jesus focused attention primarily on the redemption of the individual and the molding of his conduct, and stressed, as its central theme, the necessity of inculcating a high standard of morality and discipline into man, as the fundamental unit in human society. That was the remedy people needed 2000 years ago and during the Dispensation of Jesus.

The remedy humanity needs in this age is what Baha'u'llah revealed for this age, the unity of nations or the unification of mankind as a whole. During this age all nations and kindreds will be gathered together and religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. Eventually all men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people.

Sounds like we could have used some of that back during the Crusades. And yet God neglected to pass that on back in the previous age, before Mr B.

And why have we moved on to the next age after Jesus when we still haven't got that "high standard of morality" right?

 

[Tiberius]

There is a good explanation as to why God did not do that before, and the reason is because humanity was not ready for a written Covenant in the past because people living back then were not spiritually evolved enough to adhere to such a Covenant. Everything God reveals is based upon what humanity is ready for, and that is why Jesus said:

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Humanity could not bear to hear the "many things" that Baha'u'llah revealed until the present age and that is way Jesus did not reveal those things back in His Day. Baha'u'llah is the Spirit of truth that Jesus was referring to in those verses and He did everything Jesus said He would do in the verses, including glorifying Jesus.

Ah yes, and of course, no explanation of what that actually means is ever given. It's an empty excuse that means nothing.

How do you think anyone could prove such a thing? However, we can prove it to ourselves and then we believe it.
For starters a Messenger must meet all those criteria I gave you, and then we go from there and look at Him further, before we would be willing to believe God spoke to Him.

I don't think you understand what "proof" means. It does not, as you seem to think, mean "top be completely convinced."

Go ahead and try to come up with another interpretation, see if it makes sense and try to support it. I welcome any and all interpretations.

Oh, rubbish. I've offered my own interpretations plenty of times and you've just dismissed them and claimed your interpretations are more accurate (which is apparently a meaningless claim since you've already admitted that you can use the Bible to prove anything you want).

You need to get the idea out of your head that the Baha'i Faith is looking for interpretations of Bible verses that suit its purposes. Baha'is do not need the Bible to show who Baha'u'llah is because we have the Revelation of Baha'u'llah that shows who He was. However, since the Bible predicted the coming of Baha'u'llah, certain verses refer to Him.

Do you hear yourself?

Your conclusion that certain verses refer to Mr B is exactly what I'm talking about when I say you look for interpretations that suit your purposes!

I am not trying to prove anything, you need to get that idea out of your head. I am just explaining what "I believe" the verses mean.

And yet you seem to get rather insistent that your interpretation is the only one that can be true...

That's right, and that is why I am not trying to use the Bible to prove anything.

You sure do a good impression of it then...

Good catch. If the Baha'i Faith is not true, all bets are off, and that leaves the door for just about any belief or no belief at all.

So the accuracy of your beliefs is entirely dependent on things which you can't even prove. Or show to any degree.

Nobody can prove such a thing, except to themselves.

So then where did you get the idea that Mr B releasing the Holy Spirit is the reason we have computers?

 

[Truthseeker]

Yeah, I don't buy it. Why didn't God do that before? This seems like just another way for Baha'is to say, "Our religion is right and others are wrong."

A careful study of the history of religions will enable us to realize that the Manifestations of old, those embodiments of God's attributes, did not make an unequivocal written Covenant with their followers because of the immaturity of the people of the age, who could not have sustained the rigours, the tests and the strict discipline which the observance of such a Covenant would inevitably have required. Mankind has gone through the stages of infancy, childhood and adolescence. This is the day of the coming of age of humanity. For the Manifestations of God in past ages to establish a written Covenant with their followers would have been like giving a child new clothes and expecting him to keep them clean and tidy forever. It is obvious that he will not be able to comply. A child may roll in mud and stain his clothes, but that is normal for his age: he cannot realistically be assigned a responsibility that he will be unable to undertake. One cannot ask a child to be accountable beyond his stage of development. Only when he comes of age will he become accountable for his actions according to adult expectations.
Adib Taherzadeh, "The Covenant of Bahá’u’lláh"

 

[Truthseeker]

The requirements of the time of Mr B are different to the requirements of our society today, and they will no doubt be different to the requirements of our society in 200, 500 or 800 years. And yet you have claimed that those times will all be in the one age and thus will not require any further information.

O people of God! That which traineth the world is Justice, for it is upheld by two pillars, reward and punishment. These two pillars are the sources of life to the world. Inasmuch as for each day there is a new problem and for every problem an expedient solution, such affairs should be referred to the Ministers of the House of Justice that they may act according to the needs and requirements of the time.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas"

 

[samtonga43]

No, I am not denying that I said that because it is right there in black and white.
But that is not the same as saying that I need proof in order to know that what I believe is true. I was talking about evidence, not proof.
I said: "I have not uncovered any evidence that proves me wrong in over 50 years, all I have uncovered is evidence that proves me right."

I see.
You have evidence.
This evidence proves that you are right.

Correct?

 

[Trailblazer]

I see.
You have evidence.
This evidence proves that you are right.

Correct?

The evidence proves to me that I am right.

 

[samtonga43]

Why do you keep asking me that? I have answered that before.
I said no, of course I do not believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger 'because He said He was a Messenger.'
More than once I have told you why I believe Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.
1. Because of the evidence.
2. Because God guided me, enabling me to recognize Baha'ullah.

1. Your evidence seems to be the words written by the B.Man, who claimed to be a messenger of God. Yes?

2. People of all faiths will say that God guided them; nothing new there.

 

[samtonga43]

The evidence proves to me that I am right.

No likelihood whatsoever that you could be wrong?

 

[CG Didymus]

And why have we moved on to the next age after Jesus when we still haven't got that "high standard of morality" right?

When have "God's" laws ever worked? God said to stone the adulterers. Did it get rid of adultery? No, so what are Baha'is going to do about it? Say that it is against God's law and don't do it? Yeah, that should work.

Given that you've said that Baha'i is meant to be the proper message for the next 800 years or so, how are we to prevent the same corruption from getting into that?

Splits in the Baha'i Faith have already happened. But, they kick them out and shun them. But, I'm worried about the kind of corruption that doesn't break the covenant but that goes to the extreme of enforcing the laws of "God".

the Covenant of Baha'u'llah will prevent the corruption that happened to previous religions.
The reason that the Covenant will prevent that from happening is because the Covenant assures that all Bahais will remain on the same page. No other religion ever had a written Covenant and that is why al the older religions split into thousands of sects after the Messenger died.

So all Baha'is are on the same page? No, only in supposedly following the right order of authority. As soon as the nine men on the Universal House of Justice do something weird, then it's all over. They are just people. How perfect are they? And I think it could very well be going to far and getting too authoritarian.

Yeah, I don't buy it. Why didn't God do that before? This seems like just another way for Baha'is to say, "Our religion is right and others are wrong."

Yes, they think that this day is different. We're going to be all right in the end, because Baha'u'llah said that peace and harmony will come eventually. All we got to do is put his teachings into practice. Just like all other religions were supposed to do with their teachings.

There is a good explanation as to why God did not do that before, and the reason is because humanity was not ready for a written Covenant in the past because people living back then were not spiritually evolved enough to adhere to such a Covenant.

Moses brought a covenant from God to the people and they all said they'd obey it. I don't think it took too long before they disobeyed it, though. And, in the beginning, God passed judgement on those people and had them killed.

The Mosaic covenant is an agreement that was made between God and His people, Israel. Because the covenant was made at Mount Sinai, it is sometimes called the Sinai covenant (Exodus 19—24). The Mosaic covenant was named after Moses, the man who God had chosen to lead Israel, and to whom the first Ten Commandments of the Law were given. The Mosaic covenant was a bilateral, or conditional covenant, meaning that both parties were responsible to fulfill a duty to the other. The people were responsible to follow the Law, and in return, God promised to abundantly bless and protect Israel (Exodus 19:5-8).

The conditional nature of the Mosaic covenant makes it very different from the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants, which are unconditional. In the unconditional covenants, God's favor, promises and blessings are based on His decision, rather than on the actions of the people. In the Mosaic covenant, the blessing or lack thereof was a direct result of the obedience or disobedience of the people. This is outlined in detail in Deuteronomy 28.​

 

[samtonga43]

As soon as the nine men on the Universal House of Justice do something weird, then it's all over.

And why all men? Justice? I think not.

 

[Trailblazer]

1. Your evidence seems to be the words written by the B.Man, who claimed to be a messenger of God. Yes?

No, the evidence is NOT the words of Baha'u'llah where He claimed to be a Messenger of God because that would be circular reasoning; i.e., "I am a Messenger of God because I said I am a Messenger of God." That is ludicrous, because anyone can SAY they are a Messenger of God but that is not evidence of any kind.

I have said this numerous times so I have to wonder why you still do not understand it.

Some time ago when asked for evidence I posted the claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah on this thread:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

2. People of all faiths will say that God guided them; nothing new there.

However, that does not mean I was not guided by God. I was either guided or not, and it has nothing to do with whether other people were also guided. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't.

 

[Trailblazer]

No likelihood whatsoever that you could be wrong?

No, because in my mind, according to how I have interpreted the evidence, that is logically impossible.
In short, there is no logical explanation for all that evidence other than that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be.

 

[Trailblazer]

Splits in the Baha'i Faith have already happened. But, they kick them out and shun them. But, I'm worried about the kind of corruption that doesn't break the covenant but that goes to the extreme of enforcing the laws of "God".

Those are not "splits" in the Baha'i Faith, they are Covenant-breaker groups who call themselves Baha'is. The Baha'i Faith under the Covenant of Baha'u'llah remains ONE. There is no preventing people from breaking with the Covenant and going their own way because all people have free will.

So all Baha'is are on the same page? No, only in supposedly following the right order of authority. As soon as the nine men on the Universal House of Justice do something weird, then it's all over. They are just people. How perfect are they? And I think it could very well be going to far and getting too authoritarian.

Yes, regarding the teachings and laws of Baha'u'llah and adhering to the authority of the UHJ, all Baha'is are on the same. Even if we have different understandings of the Writings we agree on the essential teachings of the Baha'i Faith, such as progressive revelation and that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God.

Moses brought a covenant from God to the people and they all said they'd obey it. I don't think it took too long before they disobeyed it, though. And, in the beginning, God passed judgement on those people and had them killed.

The Mosaic covenant is an agreement that was made between God and His people, Israel. Because the covenant was made at Mount Sinai, it is sometimes called the Sinai covenant (Exodus 19—24). The Mosaic covenant was named after Moses, the man who God had chosen to lead Israel, and to whom the first Ten Commandments of the Law were given. The Mosaic covenant was a bilateral, or conditional covenant, meaning that both parties were responsible to fulfill a duty to the other. The people were responsible to follow the Law, and in return, God promised to abundantly bless and protect Israel (Exodus 19:5-8).

The conditional nature of the Mosaic covenant makes it very different from the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants, which are unconditional. In the unconditional covenants, God's favor, promises and blessings are based on His decision, rather than on the actions of the people. In the Mosaic covenant, the blessing or lack thereof was a direct result of the obedience or disobedience of the people. This is outlined in detail in Deuteronomy 28.​

What you quoted says "The Mosaic covenant was named after Moses, the man who God had chosen to lead Israel," Moses did not write this Covenant so that is not the same as the Covenant of Baha'u'llah that was written by Baha'u'llah in His own pen. Another difference is that the only stipulation in the Mosaic Covenant was to follow the Law, and there was no provision made for to whom authority would pass after Moses died. By stark contrast, the Covenant of Baha'u'llah cleanly spelled out to whom the authority would pass throughout His Dispensation

Overview

The Bahá’í Faith began with the mission entrusted by God to two Divine Messengers—the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. Today, the distinctive unity of the Faith They founded stems from explicit instructions given by Bahá’u’lláh that have assured the continuity of guidance following His passing. This line of succession, referred to as the Covenant, went from Bahá’u’lláh to His Son ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, and then from ‘Abdu’l-Bahá to His grandson, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice, ordained by Bahá’u’lláh. A Bahá’í accepts the divine authority of the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh and of these appointed successors.

Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant

In case you missed what Truthseeker9 quoted, there was a reason why the Jews in Moses' Day were unable to adhere to a Covenant:

A careful study of the history of religions will enable us to realize that the Manifestations of old, those embodiments of God's attributes, did not make an unequivocal written Covenant with their followers because of the immaturity of the people of the age, who could not have sustained the rigours, the tests and the strict discipline which the observance of such a Covenant would inevitably have required. Mankind has gone through the stages of infancy, childhood and adolescence. This is the day of the coming of age of humanity. For the Manifestations of God in past ages to establish a written Covenant with their followers would have been like giving a child new clothes and expecting him to keep them clean and tidy forever. It is obvious that he will not be able to comply. A child may roll in mud and stain his clothes, but that is normal for his age: he cannot realistically be assigned a responsibility that he will be unable to undertake. One cannot ask a child to be accountable beyond his stage of development. Only when he comes of age will he become accountable for his actions according to adult expectations.

Adib Taherzadeh, "The Covenant of Bahá’u’lláh"

 

[Trailblazer]

Do Baha'is say Adam, Noah and Abraham were manifestations? If so, what religions did they reveal?

Baha'u'llah wrote in the Kitab-i-Iqan that they were prophets. That is all I know about them.

In India, they have several religions that we've learned, maybe not you, that fall into the general category of Hinduism. Those religions predated Krishna. Have you read the Krishna story? Is it true? Was it revealed by Krishna or written down and told by someone else?

Krishna never wrote anything so the Krishna story was told by someone else.

I'm sure many religions were made up by men. It was there guess at what spiritual truth was. Or they wanted to make rules for society to follow so they made up Gods and prophets to make the rules have a Godly authority.

Some religions were made up by mean and some religions were revealed by God.

Yes, that is what it says. You and the Baha'i Faith don't believe it, so that makes it a fictional story. Yet, you make part of the story literally true... even the virgin birth Baha'is make literally true.

Baha'is do not 'make' the virgin birth literally true, Baha'u'llah wrote that it was true.

And this "big" picture just happens to be what you believe is true. None of the major religions has gone totally away. They haven't "seen" their day. Prophecies can very well be fulfilled that makes Judaism true or that makes Christianity true, but you are blind to that. Blinded by the belief that your religion is true. Great, and they call me blind also, because I don't believe in their religions either.

They have not gone away yet because people cling to them, but they will go away eventually. because they do not serve God's Purpose for humans in this age. Prophecies will never be fulfilled as Jews and Christians believe they will be because they have already been fulfilled.

I think the prophecies have the Messiah or Jesus coming after the bad stuff, all the tribulations. The one where it says there will be wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end. But there still is lots of wars and rumors of wars. Tell me again how Baha'is explain away that?

Matthew 24:6-13
New International Version

6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

The wars and rumors of wars happened before and after Baha'u'llah came. The prophecy does not say there will be no more wars after Christ returns. All those verses fit with what has happened since the coming of Baha'u'llah and what is going in now. These are the birth pangs of the new age which was ushered in by the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Yet, Christians explain them away just like Baha'is explain away the verses that contradict their beliefs. I'm okay if you believe that what it says in Acts is false... that it is made up BS. But, it does say it. Jesus showed himself alive and it says this "same" Jesus is coming back. I posted it down below. Read it again... That is if you've ever read it.

Not only have I read Acts 1 dozens of times, I have several interpretations of it.

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.

The verse does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.

Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of a human being. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

Oh, and to pull a "Trailblazer" type of tactic... Jesus never "said" anything that we know of for sure. All we have is people saying what they remember he supposedly said. How reliable is that? How "revealed" is that?

That is no tactic of mine, it is simply the truth that every Bible scholar knows.

And I do know that Baha'is find ways to make those verses becoming virtually meaningless. But verses that say Jesus is not God or not coming back, Baha'is make those verses very literal and of the utmost importance.

No, I just point them out when other people bring the subject up. I have no need to prove anything to anyone and I certainly don't need the Bible to prove who Baha'u'llah was as I have the Revelation of Baha'u'llah that stands on its own merit.

So sure, the Baha'i Faith has some nice teachings, but I don't believe everything they say. Just like I don't believe everything in any religion. But you the "True Believer" has to believe everything that your religion says.

That's your choice and I have made my choice. I am not very good at making choices but some things are just drop dead obvious. I don't believe everything other Baha'is believe my religion says because some of it is open to different interpretations.

 

[Trailblazer]

I thought Baha'is believe the "spiritual" teachings don't change... only the "social" laws change? But that is not what we see in the beliefs of the different religions. They all have different beliefs about God and spiritual things.

All religions do have different beliefs because all religions were revealed differently by different Messengers, according to the needs of the people living in the times in which they were revealed.

And some have lots of "laws" and rules for society. Read the Laws of Moses... Do you think God "revealed" those or that the spiritual leaders of the community made them up? There are lots of laws on doing different animal sacrifices. Was that "new" information that the previous religions needed to hear? No, these things were very specific to the Hebrew people. Did God "reveal" a law that a girl that is found not to be a virgin be stoned to death? Or did the religious leaders of the community make that up?

Any idiot could figure out that laws that require animal sacrifices and laws that require stoning to death a girl that is found not to be a virgin no longer apply to today's society, not even to the Hebrew people They were revealed over 3000 years ago for people living 3000 years ago.

Then, what new social laws did Jesus bring? It ended up that Christianity dumped most all of the Laws of Moses. They even dumped the Sabbath Law out of the Ten Commandments. It seems God does reveal new information, though... It is because the old information is wrong. Which Baha'is would agree with. But when was the information of the previous religion ever right?

God reveals new information because humanity NEEDS new information, it is as simple as that. Jesus changed the Laws of Moses because they needed to be changed for people living in the times of Jesus. Nobody knows if the previous Laws were ever right, but why would it matter? The past is gone.

 

[Trailblazer]

Again, Christians do the same thing with Jesus. Jesus is who he says he is, because the Bible says so. The Bible is true, because of what it says. They go through all the reasons why we can trust the Bible. Then go through all the things it says about Jesus. As you know, by the time they are done... Jesus is God. And they can "prove" it all.

That is not the SAME THING that Baha'is do. We do not say that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God because the Writings of Baha'u'llah say so. And we do not go through all the reasons why you can trust the Baha'i Writings. We also do not say that the Baha'i Faith is true because we can trust the Baha'i Writings.

What we do say is that everyone needs to do their own independent investigation of truth.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

Oh, and going back to that "revealed" religion thing... You know that person that claimed to be the Mahdi. I believe he was a contemporary to Baha'u'llah. He made the claim and "revealed" teachings, but you don't believe him? So there are people you and the Baha'i Faith think are false prophets.

Of course there are many men who Baha'is believe are false prophets and of course we don't believe them. Anyone can CLAIM to be a prophet but proving it is another matter..

 

[Trailblazer]

You said, "You cannot verify that God exists before believing that the Messenger was sent by God because the Messenger is the only evidence of God's existence." (post 1283)

Now you say I shouldn't believe the messenger until I have evidence the messenger is from God.

Do you not see the problem?

I shouldn't believe the messenger until there is evidence he is from God, but I can only get evidence he is from God by believing the messenger. See how this just goes in a loop?

Notice how I worded that. I said "I am not suggesting you believe in a Messenger before you get evidence for the Messenger that is sufficient for you to believe." Believe what? That He was a Messenger sent by God.

So you need evidence that indicates that the Messenger was sent by God, but there can never be proof that He was sent by God because such a thing can never be proven. However, if the evidence for the Messenger is sufficient for you to believe that He was sent by God then that will constitute proof for you and you will be a believer.

And that is why we have been enjoined by Baha'u'llah to look at all the evidence that He told us to look at.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

 

[Trailblazer]

Kids are usually brought up to have the same faith as their parents, and when they get older, they tend to accept evidence that supports their beliefs and reject evidence that disagrees with their beliefs. There are lots of cases of people holding a belief and then accepting or rejecting the evidence based purely on whether it agrees with that belief. Flat Earthers and anti-vaxxers do it all the time, not to mention all the anti-evolution creationists.

Yes, that is what usually happens although it did not happen in my case because I was not brought up with any religious belief. Moreover I had no interest in religion or God before I became a Baha'i and I did not have very much interest after that, not until fairly recently.

 

[Trailblazer]

How about you tell us some of these teachings that you think people today aren't ready for.

Here are some of these teachings:

• Independent Investigation of Truth
• Elimination of Prejudice of Every Kind
• The Oneness of Humanity
• One Essential Foundation for All Religions
• Religion Should Cause Love, Affection, and Joy
• The Harmony of Science and Religion
• A Universal Auxiliary Language
• Universal Compulsory Education
• Gender Equality
• Establishing a World Parliament
• The Abolition of the Extremes of Wealth and Poverty
• The Non-Involvement of Religion With Politics
• Human Rights for All

What Is the Baha'i Faith?

But in today's world, barely 200 years later, such ideas are held by most people, and those that don't are viewed as backwards. Can you give any examples of his teachings that you think people won't be ready for in 300 years?

Yes, these ideas are now commonly accepted but you might ask yourself why they are now commonly accepted when they were not accepted before the present age. Baha'is believe that what Baha'u'llah brought affected everyone in the world, not just those who knew about Him and read what He wrote. It was because He released the Holy Spirit that things began to change.

Of course nobody can predict the future, but in 300 years I think that many more people will accept those teachings I posted above.

Okay, let's not get into the whole prophecy thing, because I don't care to repeat that dance in a circle that never went anywhere.

But you said it will be applicable in this age, which is going to last another 800 years or so, yes? Can you tell me what teachings of his are applicable to the internet? To genetic modification? Space travel?

You see, if you are right and he could not only see the future but he also received information from God that would guide us through the next 800 years, then the information must apply to the new technologies that we have today that Mr B could not conceive of (like genetic modification), but also to the future technologies that haven't even been thought of yet. And yet information about these technologies and the best way to use them should be included in his teachings, yes?

Now you are mixing up science and religion. Baha'u'llah did not come to write about new scientific technologies and how to use them because that is the domain of science, not religion. However, the Bahai Faith teaches that science is just as important as religion for the progress of humanity because both material progress and spiritual progress are necessary.

“All religions teach that we must do good, that we must be generous, sincere, truthful, law-abiding, and faithful; all this is reasonable, and logically the only way in which humanity can progress.

All religious laws conform to reason, and are suited to the people for whom they are framed, and for the age in which they are to be obeyed..........

Now, all questions of morality contained in the spiritual, immutable law of every religion are logically right. If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings upon which man’s intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism...”
Paris Talks, pp. 141-143

From: FOURTH PRINCIPLE—THE ACCEPTANCE OF THE RELATION BETWEEN RELIGION AND SCIENCE

I hope you aren't going to try saying that the information about these new technologies is contained within those writings...

No, I do not expect them to be since science and religion fall under different purviews.

So we've gone from "Mr B gave us everything we need to know," to, "Just in case there's something we need to know that Mr B didn't say..."

What's wrong with that? I cannot explain everything about the Bahai Faith in a few posts.

Yeah, still doesn't make sense.

Let's say there are two ages. We'll have Age A, and then some time later, we'll have Age B.

Your first quote is someone in Age A saying, "What will be needed in Age B will be DIFFERENT to what we need in Age A, because our present day afflictions can never be the same as what will be afflicting us in future ages (like Age B)."

The second quote is someone in Age B saying, "Why shouldn't the treatments that what we need today in Age B be THE SAME as what we needed in Age A?"

Apparently you are still misunderstanding the passages and what they are referring to. Three ages are being referred to, Age A, Age B and Age C.

Age A is a past age, an age previous to the age we are living in.
Age B is the present age, the age we are living in
Age C is a future age, the age that comes after Age B.

The first quote is someone in Age B saying, "What will be needed in Age C will be DIFFERENT to what we need in Age B, because our present day afflictions in Age B can never be the same as what will be afflicting us in a future age (Age C)."

The second quote is someone in Age B saying, "Why shouldn't the treatments that what we need today in Age B be THE SAME as what we needed in Age A?

Sounds like we could have used some of that back during the Crusades. And yet God neglected to pass that on back in the previous age, before Mr B.

And why have we moved on to the next age after Jesus when we still haven't got that "high standard of morality" right?

In retrospect it might seem to us in this age that it might have been useful for those people living in past ages to know what we know now, but anything that God did not pass on in past ages was not passed on because humanity was not ready to hear it in previous ages.

Jesus moved humanity further along towards a higher standard of morality from the standard that had been in place during the Mosaic Age, but humanity still has a long way to go, and Baha'u'llah is moving us further in that direction by revealing even higher standards of morality for us to follow.