Unable to kill.

[stvdv]

If you feel it is a claim i cant stand by, I respect that

I did not say "you can't stand by it". I said "the Masters I met explained that we can't know about the future, unless we are Omniscient".

And I trust these Masters to know about this much more than I trust you to know about this. You have made claims on RF, which changed after you changed "religion" and even more after you started Islam. Which make me trust these Masters even more

I am not Omniscient, so I never know 100% certain what I might do in the future. I might reincarnate and kill someone
I also know that Sai Baba has said "Don't look down on killers and murderers and rapists, you all have gone through that"
I realize now that I know hardly anything about past, present and future, so, what these Masters said, makes sense to me; seems true

If you feel the claim of these Masters does not apply to you, I respect that

 

[Spirit of Light]

I did not say "you can't stand by it". I said "the Masters I met explained that we can't know about the future, unless we are Omniscient".

And I trust these Masters to know about this much more than I trust you to know about this. You have made claims on RF, which changed after you changed "religion" and even more after you started Islam. Which make me trust these Masters even more

I am not Omniscient, so I never know 100% certain what I might do in the future. I might reincarnate and kill someone
I also know that Sai Baba has said "Don't look down on killers and murderers and rapists, you all have gone through that"
I realize now that I know hardly anything about past, present and future, so, what these Masters said, makes sense to me; seems true

If you feel the claim of these Masters does not apply to you, I respect that

It is very good you stand by the teaching of Sai Baba very similar to how i see my teacher and how i respect him

 

[stvdv]

It is very good you stand by the teaching of Sai Baba very similar to how i see my teacher and how i respect him

Does your Teacher say:
1) You can know what will happen in the future
2) You can know how you will react to something unknown which will happen in the future?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Does your Teacher say that you can know what will happen in the future and/or how you will react to it?

Not that direct no
But when a sufi start to open the spiritual heart, he/she may realize that to take the life of others is to end our own life too, because to carry the burden of having killed someone is to great.

 

[stvdv]

Not that direct no
But when a sufi start to open the spiritual heart, he/she may realize that to take the life of others is to end our own life too, because to carry the burden of having killed someone is to great.

. True, it's all about "opening the spiritual heart"

There are different phases, according to the teachings I learned while I was in India ... something like this:
a) Spiritual Heart has not yet been opened ... then you can never know what you would do in the future ... those people are 'ruled' by their emotions/whims
b) Spiritual Heart starts to open ... then you mentally understand what is best to do, but since the heart is still filled with emotional trauma, you still do not know how you would act under extreme duress. Hence the Wise advice to be very careful and stay out of certain provocative situations until your heart is fully opened (of course not all have this opportunity, and even less get to this point even). Compare it to fencing a young plant to protect it
c) Spiritual Heart is open ... you "really" know. No more emotional burden which might influence you doing something unwanted; setting you back

*) Bhagavad Gita goes one step further my Master explained. When you follow your Dharma, and you surrender all your deeds to God, the deeds are karma free, because you are not the doer anymore, but God is (of course knowing this, as in bookish knowledge, is not the same as having realized it, as in Self Realized).
*) IF you are in this state then there will not be "carrying of burden" anymore

 

[SalixIncendium]

In an other thread the discussion about killing or not killing (pasifist) arise.
And @mikkel_the_dane argued that he would kill to save me in a situation of danger.
Personally I can not accept that other people get killed to save my life, nor can i or will i kill an other being.

Realizing this, comes with its challenges due to people think they can not trust a pasifist. The thing is. I can take a bullet for you. But I will not wish others to die for me.

I cant answer if this is a form of selfishness or not

I'm not a pacifist, but I do live by ahimsa (nonviolence and respect for all life).

However, if I see someone harming another being, I will do what is necessary to stop it.

I am curious though... How do you feel about eating meat?

 

[Spirit of Light]

. True, it's all about "opening the spiritual heart"

There are different stadiums, according to the teachings I learned while I was in India ... something like this:
a) Spiritual Heart is not yet opened ... then you can never know what you would do in the future ... those people are 'ruled' by their emotions/whims
b) Spiritual Heart starts to open ... then you mentally understand what is best to do, but since the heart is still filled with emotional trauma, you still do not know how you would act under extreme duress. Hence the Wise advice to be very careful and stay out of certain provocative situations until your heart is fully opened (of course not all have this opportunity, and even less get to this point even). Compare it to fencing a young plant to protect it
c) Spiritual Heart is open ... then you "really" know, because there is no more emotional burden which might influence you doing something unwanted

*) Bhagavad Gita goes one step further my Master explained. When you follow your Dharma, and you surrender all your deeds to God, the deeds are karma free, because you are not the doer anymore, but God is (of course knowing this, as in bookish knowledge, is not the same as having realized it, as in Self Realized).
*) IF you are in this state then there will not be "carrying of burden" anymore

After some time of thinking I realize my words may have been used wrong. To be think one is sure one would not do wrong in a crisis is of course to speak false words, the intention to never harm others is there, but since one can not know the future, it would be better to say " my current virw/understanding is that I refrain from taking life."

 

[Spirit of Light]

I'm not a pacifist, but I do live by ahimsa (nonviolence and respect for all life).

However, if I see someone harming another being, I will do what is necessary to stop it.

I am curious though... How do you feel about eating meat?

I am a vegetarian/vegan so to me personally meat is off the table

 

[stvdv]

After some time of thinking I realize my words may have been used wrong. To be think one is sure one would not do wrong in a crisis is of course to speak false words, the intention to never harm others is there, but since one can not know the future, it would be better to say " my current virw/understanding is that I refrain from taking life."

Aha, with this I fully agree.

I have the same intention, and I pray to God that He does not put me in a situation where I fail, because in my current situation I will feel horrible having killed another human. Just yesterday I was on my bike, and run over a worm. That felt already bad, and I 'told' God, 'why didn't you warn me?'

Just imagine having killed another human being. Especially when you are still burdened with so many suppressed emotions. That is the major reason that those young boys who go to war and return, suffer tremendously from PTSD. I am grateful I never had to go through all of that

 

[Spirit of Light]

Aha, with this I fully agree.

I have the same intention, and I pray to God that He does not put me in a situation where I fail, because in my current situation I will feel horrible having killed another human. Just yesterday I was on my bike, and run over a worm. That felt already bad, and I 'told' God, 'why didn't you warn me?'

Just imagine having killed another human being. Especially when you are still burdened with so many suppressed emotions. That is the major reason that those young boys who go to war and return, suffer tremendously from PTSD. I am grateful I never had to go through all of that

Maybe God tested your reaction by putting the worm in front of you

 

[stvdv]

I am a vegetarian/vegan so to me personally meat is off the table

Same for me. I started changing my diet when reading about Buddha and Ahimsa, age 18 (made me also decide to not join the army, reason "I can't kill another being". Of course I had to defend my POV, and they asked me "We have this big red (D.Trump) button for the nuclear bomb ... do you press the button when told". Oh my God, that was an easy "NO". I don't even know these people who will get killed, can be Saints and innocent ones (most probably)).

I remember that in the beginning I still liked the smell of certain meats, but now after like almost 40 years, even the like-thoughts have gone

Just an idea occurred to me:
Suppose I drive in a car (hypothetically, as I don't have one). And I kill a deer. What would I do? I could as well eat it, because I already killed it. I remember when I was like 12 years old, my mother served chicken, and suddenly we, the kids, knew it were our own chicken. So, we ran to check, and alas, it were our own chicken. So, we refused to eat that day, if I remember correctly. Kids have hearts more open than most adults I think. So, the above deer I better give to someone else who needs to kill one animal less, as I really don't want to eat meat anymore

 

[stvdv]

Maybe God tested your reaction by putting the worm in front of you

Some tests are really not my favorite. Poor worm, but you might be right.

At least all such experiences make me more and more aware of life and life force in other creatures. Cats, dogs, pigs, cows, horses ... all are creatures with feelings. And even the most ardent meat eater will think twice before eating it's own beloved pet. And when using common sense and discrimination then the next step is logical ... become vegetarian. I was born in a meat eating family. Even fishing and killing the fish myself to eat it. So, naturally it took quite a few years to rewind this habit. But I am forever grateful to Buddha for putting me on this path. And also the Hare Krishna movement helped me a lot. They had delicious tasteful alternatives, making the transition like a feast meal

Eating other creatures has a huge impact on your emotional body. Not many people will eat another human, next comes maybe there beloved pets. Probably those cute dolphins won't be high on the "to eat list" either. So, the more pure our diet, the more sensitive and open we become, hence the more we will experience from the Spiritual World. Sai Baba has declared "for a Spiritual aspirant it's essential to eat vegetarian diet". Makes perfect sense to me now.

 

[stvdv]

I am a vegetarian/vegan so to me personally meat is off the table

Recently I have seen a huge shift. It seems that the world leaders want to shift to vegetarian life style. At least in Holland there is definitely this shift, and I read that in UK people get even extra points (or money?), like in China, when they eat less animal and more vegetarian. All in an app, to make sure they can't cheat of course. Because science finally admits the huge impact of diet on health. Recently I read that right diet gives 90% less change of getting trouble from Covid (if I remember correctly). Glad to read this, good motivation to stick to a healthy diet.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Recently I have seen a huge shift. It seems that the world leaders want to shift to vegetarian life style. At least in Holland there is definitely this shift, and I read that in UK people get even extra points (or money?), like in China, when they eat less animal and more vegetarian. All in an app, to make sure they can't cheat of course. Because science finally admits the huge impact of diet on health. Recently I read that right diet gives 90% less change of getting trouble from Covid (if I remember correctly). Glad to read this, good motivation to stick to a healthy diet.

Yes it is so good we start to see the value in all form of life, not only human life.
In a spiritual lifestyle vegetarian diet is good for awakening to the truth too.

 

[stvdv]

In a spiritual lifestyle vegetarian diet is good for awakening to the truth too.

I think it might be even mandatory, because our food we eat creates our thoughts, emotions, body
Truth, Righteousness, Love, Non-Violence, Peace all go hand in hand
One can't have one and violate the other

But even IF we follow good diet, to awaken to the truth is not instantly

So, I already decided "I won't go to the Eskimos", besides it's too cold, it's too fishy for me (though cuddle a Polar Bear could be nice)

 

[Father Heathen]

Speaking only for my own being, I reached the peace through sufism and a non voilant mind. I do not wish to harm any living being

I also loathe violence (excluding works of fiction) but will resort to it to defend myself or others if there is no other option. That's not the same as wishing harm, however. Besides, if your able to save someone but refuse to do so, aren't you aiding and abiding?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I also loathe violence (excluding works of fiction) but will resort to it to defend myself or others if there is no other option. That's not the same as wishing harm, however. Besides, if your able to save someone but refuse to do so, aren't you aiding and abiding?

I believe in saving others by non voilant actions. And I might have to put my own being in the line of fire to save others.

 

[stvdv]

I also loathe violence (excluding works of fiction) but will resort to it to defend myself or others if there is no other option

Makes sense, I see no problem. The Bhagavad Gita (the Gita I read at least) teaches that for a warrior it's good to even kill to uphold Dharma

That's not the same as wishing harm, however.

True. And sometimes a thorn is even needed to remove another thorn. So, although harming first, the goal is to wish the other to be "harm free"

 

[stvdv]

Besides, if your able to save someone but refuse to do so, aren't you aiding and abiding?

That is a tricky one

I use below 2 criteria:
1) "thought, words and deeds should be one"
2) "IF I see injustice AND I do nothing THEN I am as guilty"

Because I do not like to use violence I work hard to 'not see' injustice

It all seems to depend on how one perceives the things. "knowing much" makes decisions not always easy

To me, being a vegetarian, killing (animals) is 'wrong' as in 'best avoided'. But to a meat eater, killing (animals) is fine. Should I tell a meat eater "to not eat meat"? Or should I mind my own business? Using your quote "aiding and abiding" I guess you advice me to tell the meat eater to "not eat meat", right?
@stvdvRF

 

[Brian2]

Exactly, that's why you/I don't know yet

And the above Teaching explains how to get there to "experiencing Enlightenment"

If there is no "I" then "I" cannot experience anything.