I have changed my mind

[nPeace]

Yes i believe some of the contents in religious books in from God. But much of the contents is also not from God. Much of the contents is written by humans that used God to justify violence or humans that misunderstood what God wants. They thought God was more angry and hard-hearted than what God really is

I can't get that understood. So you just decide what is from God, and what isn't, from a book written by men who all claim to be of God?
How do you go about doing that? Do you pick out the parts you don't like, or the "upsetting" parts and decide, "These are not from God"?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I do not believe anymore that the Abrahamic God is the one true God.

But i believe in a intelligent force/spirit/God who has created the universe/universes. But i believe God has no spesific religion.

I believe God send holy souls/wise humans to this world to teach us love, holiness, order, justice, peace, kindness.

I believe God do not care about which religion humans believe in, God care about our heart, that we are kind and loving to each other

I'm not claiming that us loving one another and such is not important to God - but I cannot accept this premise.

I believe that He is a God of order and that no house can stand that is divided.

 

[SA Huguenot]

I think some of you have misunderstood me.

I have NOT abandoned the Abrahamic God. The difference now is that I believe the God who is behind the religious scriptures (both abrahamic scriptures and dharmic scriptures) is a universal God. That God that has no spesific religion.

I believe in the abrahamic scriptures, but i do not believe God is behind the violent and terrible rules and actions in the religious scriptures. I believe humans is behind the violence part of the scriptures.

I believe God is behind the abrahamic religious scriptures but i do not believe God is abrahamic. God has no religion. God is universal. That is the reason i do not believe the abrahamic God is the one true God, because God has no spesific religion. God do not care what religion humans believe in. I believe God only care about our heart. That we are kind and loving to each other.

So the question from @danieldemol : yes in a way i believe in the abrahamic God, but i believe much of the content in the abrahamic religious books is from humans that used God to justify violence. I believe God is not behind violence and terrible rules

2 things.
1. The God in the Bible are not violent as you claim, but rigetious.
He had, by His own law, the right to judge and to take action, that is far from being violent and unjust.
2. second, have you read the Bible yet?

 

[Truthseeker]

I believe that the Old Testament is anthropomorphic and as such it should be destroyed because it misrepresents the one true God. Of course it is not possible to burn every Bible in the world so the best we can do is offer the Baha'i Faith to correct the garbage that those writers said that God did.

What were those writers thinking, did they even care now many people would be hurt by their anthropomorphic stories about God? Did they know how many people would become atheists in the future because of what they wrote about God? Apparently not.

I feel like that a lot. Sometimes I wish the Old Testament didn't exist. Many are atheists because of the Old Testament, sometimes I have thought. However, I think the atheists usually realize the Old Testament is not accurate history, so does it really cause atheism? A lot atheists don't believe that Moses existed. Some atheist don't even believe that Jesus existed, even though the Gospels were written decades later, and not centuries like Moses. Just because there are not very many non-Christian sources they think that. Why would Christians make that up? Have they asked themselves that question? To atheists it may be the Gospels that make them skeptical. Jesus seems to good to be true, He must be made up, at least made to look better than He actually was. That's understandable to me that they may think He was made to look better than He actually was. After all the people who wrote the Gospels were believers. Can the Baha'i Faith clear up this perception? After all, the story of Baha'u'llah was written by believers. Remember Gandalf? He was skeptical of any history of Baha'u'llah written by believers. Those outside the faith are really more objective, according to him.

Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh", 52.2

Does the first and foremost testimony really prove anything? Because the history of Baha'u'llah is disputed by believers and mostly covenant-breakers. You would have have to have been in His actual presence for that true., and that was only in the 19th century. The real proof now is His Revelation and His words He hath revealed today, wouldn't you say?

Those writers in the Old Testament didn't know any better. They were relatively ignorant in those times. We can't blame them for atheism today.

 

[Truthseeker]

Bit of a shame then that children born into any particular country likely will have the religion of their parents. So where is the choice?

There is a choice, but it takes detachment from the faith of their surroundings, especially their parents as they grow older. My parents were Quaker, I am not.

 

[Truthseeker]

God do not care what religion humans believe in. I believe God only care about our heart. That we are kind and loving to each other.

That's the most most important thing.

 

[Truthseeker]

I'm not claiming that us loving one another and such is not important to God - but I cannot accept this premise.

I believe that He is a God of order and that no house can stand that is divided.

If we believe in the same spiritual truths we are not divided.

 

[Mock Turtle]

There is a choice, but it takes detachment from the faith of their surroundings, especially their parents as they grow older. My parents were Quaker, I am not.

Well I agree that it is possible, but should anyone have to go through such a process? The fact is that children are often indoctrinated (taught) one religion when they usually don't have the abilities, maturity, and/or knowledge to question such. I don't see the parental dictatorship, which it essentially is even if one takes into account that a parent considers such is in their best interests, as being a trump card. Religion seems to be the main thing that gets passed on as 'fact' when there are so many competing beliefs. Just my view of course.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 and 2 Kings 2:23-24,

I know in my heart those Bible verses is NOT from God.

I actually know in my heart these verses are from God.
First of all, the law about a rebellious son that dont change, remains offensive, and eventually became a violent being against his parents, eventually gets judged by the elders.
These elders will use their judgement to decide whether the son gets executed, or not.
Why this is so difficuilt for you to accept is perhaps the reason why you dont want to ascribe this verse to God.
However, during the Exodus there were 1.2 million people, and laws were made to ensure that there is no transgression.
There was not a single account of a rebellious child that was stoned.
Perhaps it was the knowledge of this law that prohibited a child from becomming such a rebellious brat as we see everywhere today.

Secondly, God gave the laws on Propehets in Deut 18:18 to 22.
It says clearly that whatever the prophet say, must be followed, because it is the words of God that he relays to everyone.
this law had 2 rules.
1. If someone pretends to be a prophet, and gets caught out that what he prophecied, he will be executed.
2. If someone is a tested prophet, as per point 1, then you will have to listen to whatever he says, If you dont, God will hold you accountable.

Therefore, I dont have a problem with God's judgement

 

[Fallen Prophet]

If we believe in the same spiritual truths we are not divided.

We believe in a few very basic and universal truths - like love is good - but we disagree on how those truths should be expressed or administered.

That isn't even to mention all the more "advances" truths such as those surrounding the concepts of eternity, salvation, atonement, etc.

We are most definitely devided.

 

[Trailblazer]

So simply because it's what you believe? That's it?
Why do you think that what you believe is so reliable?

Why do you think that what you believe is so reliable?

 

[nPeace]

Why do you think that what you believe is so reliable?

How many times have I answered that Trailblazer? ...but you keep asking. I told you... the Bible is reliable. It has time and again... and again, proved to be reliable Hence, I know that what I believe is reliable.

Tell me please Trailblazer, Where did your prophet (I'm referring to Bahaullah, of course) come from? Why do you use scriptures from the Bible to establish your prophet as a prophet for this era... after Jesus the Messiah; John the Baptist; Jeremiah; Isaiah; Moses...(Do you believe these were prophets of God?) Why do you even use the Bible at all?

 

[Starlight]

I'm sorry. My question to you was not, 'Where in the Bible did you read about violence', but Why don't you associate God with violence?

I believe God only allow violence in self-defence. Why? Because that is commen sense. If God really is loving and just then the logical answer is that God do not allow violence against innocent people

 

[nPeace]

I believe God only allow violence in self-defence. Why? Because that is commen sense. If God really is loving and just then the logical answer is that God do not allow violence against innocent people

Thanks for your answer.
I assume you mean self defense of human, and not God acting in self defense, since he doesn't need to defend himself.

I suppose you are saying then that the wars were good, in that the people could commit violence if enemies came against them, but it was bad for God to have judges to execute justice against a wrongdoer.
Am I correct so far?

So if an individual attacks a person, the same would be true, they could do violence. Is that correct?

You said God does not do violence against innocent people.
So are you saying the people the Bible says God killed, or ordered their execution, were innocent?
May I ask, on what basis you arrived at that conclusion?

 

[Starlight]

Thanks for your answer.
I assume you mean self defense of human, and not God acting in self defense, since he doesn't need to defend himself.

I suppose you are saying then that the wars were good, in that the people could commit violence if enemies came against them, but it was bad for God to have judges to execute justice against a wrongdoer.
Am I correct so far?

So if an individual attacks a person, the same would be true, they could do violence. Is that correct?

You said God does not do violence against innocent people.
So are you saying the people the Bible says God killed, or ordered their execution, were innocent?
May I ask, on what basis you arrived at that conclusion?

It depends which execution you are talking about.
Execution for murder i understand but some of the executions in the Bible is just wrong. For example the execution in this Bible verse is terrible and wrong: Deuteronomy 21:18-21 Do you really believe this boy deserved to die??

 

[Starlight]

It is not bad that God has laws against wrongdoers. Our society needs laws to be a good and safe society. But some of the excecution laws in the Bible make no sense.

 

[nPeace]

It depends which execution you are talking about.
Execution for murder i understand but some of the executions in the Bible is just wrong. For example the execution in this Bible verse is terrible and wrong: Deuteronomy 21:18-21 Do you really believe this boy deserved to die??

Thanks for asking.
To answer your question, I'll like to pose a question.
Do you know why God gave the Israelites all those laws through Moses his servant?

It is good you want to make sense of things.

 

[Starlight]

Thanks for asking.
To answer your question, I'll like to pose a question.
Do you know why God gave the Israelites all those laws through Moses his servant?

It is good you want to make sense of things.

You did not answer my question. Do you really believe the boy deserved to die?

 

[Trailblazer]

How many times have I answered that Trailblazer? ...but you keep asking. I told you... the Bible is reliable. It has time and again... and again, proved to be reliable Hence, I know that what I believe is reliable.

Tell me please Trailblazer, Where did your prophet (I'm referring to Bahaullah, of course) come from? Why do you use scriptures from the Bible to establish your prophet as a prophet for this era... after Jesus the Messiah; John the Baptist; Jeremiah; Isaiah; Moses...(Do you believe these were prophets of God?) Why do you even use the Bible at all?

Whether the Bible is reliable or not all depends upon what you mean by reliable.
I believe that Jesus, Jeremiah; Isaiah and Moses were all Prophets of God. Jesus was a Messiah, but was never slated by God to be the Messiah of the latter days. That was Baha'u'llah, who was prophesied all throughout the Old Testament.

Baha'u'llah came from Persia, just as the Bible prophesied. Scriptures from the Bible to establish Baha'u'llah as the Prophet for this era, the Messiah of the latter days.

Daniel 8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

The Lord was prophesied to set His throne in Elam, from which the Messiah would rule.
Elam is modern-day Persia, where Baha’u’llah was born.

Jeremiah 49:38 And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the LORD.

When that verse was recorded Elam existed and the verses for the coming of the Lord refer to the latter days.

Jeremiah 49:39 But it shall come to pass in the latter days, that I will bring again the captivity of Elam, saith the LORD.

 

[Truthseeker]

Religion seems to be the main thing that gets passed on as 'fact' when there are so many competing beliefs. Just my view of course.

Yes, I understand. But as the child gets older he can think for himself, and choose to see truth as he wants.