Does God need excuses?

[Trailblazer]

Right now, collectively we will learn from the consequences of being of ignoring the growing signs of climate change that wreaks havoc on the world and also not acting together on this. In the future, I predict, we will as a consequence learn from this and act collectively on climate change.

Speaking of climate change, yesterday I just heard a scientist on the news say that humans are fully responsible for climate change and that it will require every country in the world "working together" in order to solve the problem if we even can solve it. Thus the predictions of Baha'u'llah, that we will have to come together in unity, are being fulfilled right before our very faces, but only the Baha'is know, as the Guardian once said:

“Dear friends! The powerful operations of this titanic upheaval are comprehensible to none except such as have recognized the claims of both Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb. Their followers know full well whence it comes, and what it will ultimately lead to. Though ignorant of how far it will reach, they clearly recognize its genesis, are aware of its direction, acknowledge its necessity, observe confidently its mysterious processes, ardently pray for the mitigation of its severity, intelligently labor to assuage its fury, and anticipate, with undimmed vision, the consummation of the fears and the hopes it must necessarily engender.”
The Promised Day Is Come, p. 4

 

[Trailblazer]

So at each change to another species, it wasn't some random mutation, but God created that new species? They why didn't he just create the new species and all the other species from the beginning?

I do not think that God created any new species. I think that the new species evolved. I believe that God set the process of evolution into motion and after that God was out of the game.

It makes sense that God did not create the new species and all the other species from the beginning because that was not the best way to proceed. God has to know the best way since God is all-knowing and all-wise.

 

[Trailblazer]

Testimony of what? Creation, the flood, the parting of the sea, Moses' cane turning into a snake, Jesus walking on water etc. Greatest testimony? No, Baha'is make it the greatest fictional story that some foolish people take as being literally true.

Baha'is do not MAKE it a fictional story, but much of the Bible is allegorical so it IS a fictional story.
FYI, not all Christians believe it is "literally true" so they have figured out what Baha'is already know without ever having heard of Baha'u'llah.

"In previous centuries, almost all Christians believed in miracles as described in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). These included creation, the story of Adam and Eve, a talking serpent, the great flood of Noah, the drying up of the Red/Reed sea, a prophet riding on a talking ***, the sun stopping in the sky, etc. From the Christian Scriptures (New Testament), they believed in the virgin birth, the Christmas star, angels appearing to the shepherds, Jesus healing the sick, etc. Many, perhaps most, liberal Christians now believe that these stories are not to be interpreted literally as real events. Their faith has not been damaged by losing faith in the reality of these events. A growing number of liberals are now taking the final step by interpreting the stories of Jesus' resurrection and his appearances to his followers and to Paul as other than real events. Retired bishop John Shelby Spong commented:

"I do admit that for Christians to enter this subject honestly is to invite great anxiety. It is to walk the razor's edge, to run the risk of cutting the final cord still binding many to the faith of their mothers and fathers. But the price for refusing to enter this consideration is for me even higher. The inability to question reveals that one has no confidence that one's belief system will survive such an inquiry. That is a tacit recognition that on unconscious levels, one's faith has already died. If one seeks to protect God from truth or new insights, then God has surely already died." 3"

Beliefs of progressive Christians, secularists, etc. about Jesus' resurrection

 

[Trailblazer]

If God doesn't care, he's useless. Any other Gods up there that have a little more compassion and hands on approach?

I did not say that God does not care, I said what happens has no effect on God because God is transcendent.
God expects humans to have compassion for each other and we were created in such a way to make that possible.

Yeah sure, theoretically. How many kids are born into a place and situation where there is little or no hope? I still remember the picture of a Guatemalan father and daughter drowned in a river trying to sneak into Texas. He brought her all that way so she could have a chance at a better life. Thanks God.

People make choices and mistakes, but that has nothing to do with God so I don't blame God. I am out of the game of listening to people who blame God for things that God has no part in, but it you want to look at what God is responsible for I will come to the table, as I said it F1fan.

 

[CG Didymus]

Even with prophecies in Revelation Baha'is do some manipulation to make them work. Six things are made to be 1260 years. All six are different events that started and ended at different times. Yet, for Baha'is, they are all made to start in the year 621AD and end in 1844.

No, I have not read those prophecies and I don't care about them.

Someday, if you look at those 1260 year prophecies, I'd like to hear what you think about them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Someday, if you look at those 1260 year prophecies, I'd like to hear what you think about them.

That is a Pandora's Box. I would not even know where to start. What do you think it could prove?

 

[CG Didymus]

I did not say that God does not care, I said what happens has no effect on God because God is transcendent.

My mistake.

God does not care if there are troublemakers in the world as it does not affect God in any way.

God is responsible for

Creation? Just by saying God created humans with a lower nature, to me, right there, makes him responsible. Christians had the same problem trying to explain evil. They came up with Satan and Adam and Eve disobeying God. Then God cursed them and the Earth. But Baha'is don't have those things to use as reasons. Baha'is have man, from the start having two natures. If they were designed and created that way, then what should we expect? Some of them, or most of them, will choose their lower nature. And did God know they'd do that? Yes. Some of us blame God for designing people that way... you don't. Fine. But why there is evil and pain and suffering in the world is always going to be something that people will question religious people about... Why does their concept of God create it and why does he allow it. All religions give their reasons... none of them are all that convincing.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is a Pandora's Box. I would not even know where to start. What do you think it could prove?

Like I said, all six times the 1260 years is talking about something else. Each one started and stopped at different times. Yet, Baha'is make them all start in 621AD and end in 1844. Oh, and I don't think any of them lasted 1260 years. For example, the Umayyad dynasty. Which I think Baha'is make them the dragon in Revelation 12. They didn't start in 621. Here's a link to when they were in power... "The Umayyads ruled the Islamic world from 661 to 750 C.E." Not even a hundred years. As it stands, it does prove something... Baha'is make prophecies fit into their beliefs. But that's okay, I accuse Christians of doing the same thing.

 

[F1fan]

God knew I would not read the post but rather I would skip to the very last line to see If you took me up on my offer, and that is exactly what I did, since what I choose to do is identical with what God knows I will do.

LOL. And you have no choice but to follow the script that God knew about 13.7 billion years ago when God created the universe.

I said: "If you ever want to know what God is really responsible for let me know."

I see you didn't want to know so I am moving on to answer CG's posts. Let me know if you ever change your mind.

God is the creator, and God is responsible for what it created. That creation included Hitler. God knew it, it didn't;t change the design. Six million Jews died as a result. It's on God.

Now that I think about it Hitler is a good analogy for your God. Hitler actually never killed any jew himself. he never ordered the jews to be exterminated, that came in 1942 with a group of Nazi officials who decided to set in motion "The Final Solution". Hitler wasn't;t there, he had no input. But Hitler is still held responsible for what he created, and we can't just put the blame on his followers.

 

[Trailblazer]

Creation? Just by saying God created humans with a lower nature, to me, right there, makes him responsible.

Why would that make God responsible? God gave man a brain and free will to choose between our two natures. God does not influence our choices so God is not responsible for them.

Christians had the same problem trying to explain evil.

Baha'is don;t have any problem explaining evil. It is right there in black and white in the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150

They came up with Satan and Adam and Eve disobeying God. Then God cursed them and the Earth. But Baha'is don't have those things to use as reasons.

Baha'is know the reason. See above.

Baha'is have man, from the start having two natures. If they were designed and created that way, then what should we expect? Some of them, or most of them, will choose their lower nature.

What should we expect? If they are going to obey God we expect them to follow the teachings and laws of God in which case they would follow their spiritual nature. If they choose to turn away from God we would expect them to follow their lower material nature. It's a choice.

And did God know they'd do that? Yes. Some of us blame God for designing people that way... you don't. Fine.

It is illogical to blame God for the choices people make and try to deflect by saying we have no free will. If we had no free will we could nit make any choices at all, good or bad, so that plane won't fly. It won't even get off the runway. It is just an excuse, a way to blame God for what humans are responsible for, their moral choices.

But why there is evil and pain and suffering in the world is always going to be something that people will question religious people about... Why does their concept of God create it and why does he allow it. All religions give their reasons... none of them are all that convincing.

Why shouldn't God allow it? Why should God stop the evil on the world? This is always going to be something that religious people will question atheists about. Why should God stop people from doing evil when people have the free will to choose and stop themselves from doing evil? To say that God is omnipotent so God can do anything is not an answer. God is not responsible for what humans choose to do and God is not responsible to stop humans from doing what they do.

Why there is pain and suffering in the world that is not the result of free will choices people make is another conversation, something that people should question.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure their fate because God set it up that way, and I do question why it had to be this way, although there is no answer that is completely satisfactory.

 

[F1fan]

Bahá’u’lláh has announced that no matter how far the world of humanity may advance in material civilization, it is nevertheless in need of spiritual virtues and the bounties of God.

Since atheists can have moral virtues I don't see any purpose or utility to assign a God to it.

The spirit of man is not illumined and quickened through material sources. It is not resuscitated by investigating phenomena of the world of matter.

I would be impressed by theists if they get science correct and stop having contempt for the material world. Let's note that it is experts who work in the material science that allow us to live comfortable lives, and saved from diseases. God is what the sciences save us from. What I mean is when there's a cold front in winter and it is 0 degrees in God's creation for days on end it is the sciences that give you a safe environment to live in.

I understand this was a quote, but it makes unrealistic comments for those who live in the real world.

 

[F1fan]

Speaking of climate change, yesterday I just heard a scientist on the news say that humans are fully responsible for climate change and that it will require every country in the world "working together" in order to solve the problem if we even can solve it. Thus the predictions of Baha'u'llah, that we will have to come together in unity, are being fulfilled right before our very faces, but only the Baha'is know, as the Guardian once said:

“Dear friends! The powerful operations of this titanic upheaval are comprehensible to none except such as have recognized the claims of both Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb. Their followers know full well whence it comes, and what it will ultimately lead to. Though ignorant of how far it will reach, they clearly recognize its genesis, are aware of its direction, acknowledge its necessity, observe confidently its mysterious processes, ardently pray for the mitigation of its severity, intelligently labor to assuage its fury, and anticipate, with undimmed vision, the consummation of the fears and the hopes it must necessarily engender.”
The Promised Day Is Come, p. 4

That's a very vague comment. I doesn't mention climate change at all.

 

[Trailblazer]

Like I said, all six times the 1260 years is talking about something else. Each one started and stopped at different times. Yet, Baha'is make them all start in 621AD and end in 1844. Oh, and I don't think any of them lasted 1260 years. For example, the Umayyad dynasty. Which I think Baha'is make them the dragon in Revelation 12. They didn't start in 621. Here's a link to when they were in power... "The Umayyads ruled the Islamic world from 661 to 750 C.E." Not even a hundred years. As it stands, it does prove something... Baha'is make prophecies fit into their beliefs. But that's okay, I accuse Christians of doing the same thing.

Sorry, that is about as clear as mud. For us who are not that well-versed in the Bible, we would have to have it all laid out.

 

[F1fan]

I do not think that God created any new species. I think that the new species evolved. I believe that God set the process of evolution into motion and after that God was out of the game.

But your God knows every species that will evolve. In knowing how its creation will unfold over time is a plan. Let's note that humans are a species of primate and God must have known we would evolve after 13.7 billion years of all sorts of other animals evolving and going extinct.

It makes sense that God did not create the new species and all the other species from the beginning because that was not the best way to proceed. God has to know the best way since God is all-knowing and all-wise.

So your God invented mutations as part of the evolutionary process, and this includes fatal mutations as well as good. Why?

 

[Trailblazer]

LOL. And you have no choice but to follow the script that God knew about 13.7 billion years ago when God created the universe.

I did have a choice and the proof is that I thought about reading it for an few seconds and then I chose not to.

I just made another choice when I saw this post. I read the first line and decided to respond to it but I chose not to read anything but the first line because I knew where it would be going and I already made my choice yesterday that I am not going down that road again.

I saw some posts on other threads today that I could have responded to but I chose not to because I was using my best judgment.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's a very vague comment. I doesn't mention climate change at all.

Climate change is just one aspect of "the powerful operations of this titanic upheaval that are comprehensible to none except such as have recognized the claims of both Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb." Climate change is just the tip of the iceberg so to speak. The entire world is in a state of social, political, and economic chaos, in case you haven't noticed. The old world order is being rolled up just as Baha'u'llah predicted would happen, and only the Baha'is know the cause and the ultimate outcome: "Their followers know full well whence it comes, and what it will ultimately lead to."

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” Gleanings, p. 136

“By My Self! The day is approaching when We will have rolled up the world and all that is therein, and spread out a new order in its stead. He, verily, is powerful over all things.” Gleanings, p. 313

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings, p. 7

 

[Trailblazer]

But your God knows every species that will evolve. In knowing how its creation will unfold over time is a plan. Let's note that humans are a species of primate and God must have known we would evolve after 13.7 billion years of all sorts of other animals evolving and going extinct.

But of course, because God is all-knowing.

So your God invented mutations as part of the evolutionary process, and this includes fatal mutations as well as good. Why?

God did not invent them, they came about as part of the evolutionary process which God allowed to unfold.

 

[F1fan]

But of course, because God is all-knowing.

It knows Hitler will murder 6 million Jews as it creates the universe. Right.

God knew about hitler but should have created a long lineage of Buddhist monks all over the world to guide human progress, not just India. God created the world that included the Abrahamic religions and all the violence that came with it.

God did not invent them, they came about as part of the evolutionary process which God allowed to unfold.

If mutations are part of God's creation then God created them. Everything in God's creation was made and caused by the Creator. Like the 1000 dominos that have a button at the end, the person doesn't push the button personally, but they sets things in motion that ends up with the button being pressed, and the outcome was known.

 

[F1fan]

I did have a choice and the proof is that I thought about reading it for an few seconds and then I chose not to.

Your choice was known before you were born. That means you had no actual freedom to chose some other option.

Answer this: do you have the power and authority over God's knowledge to make a decision that is contrary to what God knows you will do? Can you trick God?

I just made another choice when I saw this post.

God knew this 13.7 billion years ago. You had no choice.

I saw some posts on other threads today that I could have responded to but I chose not to because I was using my best judgment.

God knew all this already. You didn't. You have the illusion of making the decision.. but it was made already for you long ago.

 

[F1fan]

Climate change is just one aspect of "the powerful operations of this titanic upheaval that are comprehensible to none except such as have recognized the claims of both Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb." Climate change is just the tip of the iceberg so to speak. The entire world is in a state of social, political, and economic chaos, in case you haven't noticed. The old world order is being rolled up just as Baha'u'llah predicted would happen, and only the Baha'is know the cause and the ultimate outcome: "Their followers know full well whence it comes, and what it will ultimately lead to."

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” Gleanings, p. 136

“By My Self! The day is approaching when We will have rolled up the world and all that is therein, and spread out a new order in its stead. He, verily, is powerful over all things.” Gleanings, p. 313

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings, p. 7

That's a very liberal interpretation. It's a weak prediction at face value. He could be talking about volcanos and earthquakes. It's too vague to be useful.