infrabenji
Active Member
The answer is simple. I don't know what it would take to convince me. But, if god exists, he does and has so far chosen not to provide this evidence. So how can my belief be warranted.
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Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.
- Thread starter infrabenji
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infrabenji
Active Member
Well this is totally new to me. transtheist. I love it. What would you like to discuss? Religion or maybe Philosophy?
I've seen many atheists answer this question. That you don't like the answer doesn't mean they can't.
The most common answer is see is providing objective evidence of God's existence.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
My left eye is dead, and also has cataract. If God will put it right, I will believe in him, even if it is an Abrahamic God. Will God take up the challenge? He is supposed to have many miracles to his credit. This should be a small thing for him.
infrabenji
Active Member
Well, I've debated about 50 religious people tonight. Mostly what I've found being very familiar with tools like critical thinking, the laws of logic, logical fallacies, and the scientific method is that well peoples arguments are full of fallacies, a lack of evidence that meets even the basic criteria for the burden of proof, errors in logic, to outright just not knowing what they're talking about. It's been a long haul but I hope I got through to some people and made their days better or at least gave them some food for thought.Either is fine with me. It's your playground, so you can feel free to choose.
I find this fascinating, and the follow-up even more so.
Now that you've said this, if science gave an ophthalmologist the ability to fix your eye, would you attribute this fix to science or God?
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
It's not their subjective experiences that are being questioned. It's the objective claims that they make based on those experiences. Remember that many atheists have been believers and have actually experienced those subjective experiences.
Maybe He'll act via the cataract surgeon. He is everywhere and in and through all things as Brahman.
When you're refreshed, I'd love to have a discussion with you. Like you, I'm what I am as a result of being a critical thinker that questions everything. You may find we're not far apart in our logic and reasoning, despite what differences may lie in one another's worldview.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Why should I credit it to God without any evidence and belittle the work of the ophthalmologist? I promise I would not go to any ophthalmologist so that the whole credit will be to God. Leroy, would you want me to be a Catholic, Protestant, Pentecostal, Seventh-day Adventist, Methodist, Orthodox Greek, Orthodox Syrian, or one of the local christian strains around here, i.e., Malankara Orthodox Syrian (aka Indian Orthodox Church)?
Moonjuice
In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
People still have trouble understanding the burden of proof? You are an atheist too JoshuaTree and yet you have not provided evidence to support your atheism with respect to all the gods you also don't believe in. Do you think you have a burden of proof to provide evidence for why you do not believe in Poseidon? Of course not.
I'm reminded of the parable of God and the Drowning Man. There are a great many versions of this story. Here's the one I chose to c/p, because storyteller I am not.
“A man was trapped in his house during a flood. He began praying to God to rescue him. He had a vision in his head of God’s hand reaching down from heaven and lifting him to safety. The water started to rise in his house. His neighbor urged him to leave and offered him a ride to safety. The man yelled back, “I am waiting for God to save me.” The neighbor then drove off in his pick-up truck.
The man continued to pray and hold on to his vision. As the water began rising in his house, he had to climb up to the roof. A boat came by with some people heading for safe ground. They yelled at the man to grab a rope they were ready to throw and take him to safety. He told them that he was waiting for God to save him. They shook their heads and moved on.
The man continued to pray, believing with all his heart that he would be saved by God. The floodwaters continued to rise. A helicopter flew by and a voice came over a loudspeaker offering to lower a ladder and take him off the roof. The man waved the helicopter away, shouting back that he was waiting for God to save him. The helicopter left. The flooding water came over the roof and caught him up and swept him away. He drowned.
When he reached heaven and asked, “God, why did you not save me? I believed in you with all my heart. Why did you let me drown?” God replied, “I sent you a pick-up truck, a boat, and a helicopter and you refused all of them. What else could I possibly do for you?”
The Drowning Man
The man continued to pray and hold on to his vision. As the water began rising in his house, he had to climb up to the roof. A boat came by with some people heading for safe ground. They yelled at the man to grab a rope they were ready to throw and take him to safety. He told them that he was waiting for God to save him. They shook their heads and moved on.
The man continued to pray, believing with all his heart that he would be saved by God. The floodwaters continued to rise. A helicopter flew by and a voice came over a loudspeaker offering to lower a ladder and take him off the roof. The man waved the helicopter away, shouting back that he was waiting for God to save him. The helicopter left. The flooding water came over the roof and caught him up and swept him away. He drowned.
When he reached heaven and asked, “God, why did you not save me? I believed in you with all my heart. Why did you let me drown?” God replied, “I sent you a pick-up truck, a boat, and a helicopter and you refused all of them. What else could I possibly do for you?”
The Drowning Man
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Yahweh is not in and through all things. He rules, however badly, and keeps distance from everything. That is not Brahman.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Whether Abrahamic Gods or Hindu Gods or Poseidon, I do not believe in any because there is no evidence for any.
@SalixIncendium, most similes fool people that is why religions offer them. I will require better proof, like correcting my eye, even for a minute. Then he can revert it to is former (bad) state. I am not trying to escape the expenses of an ophthalmologist or an operation.
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I've seen a few struggling with what the "burden of proof" actually is. The burden of proof, as I understand it, lies on the person making the claim, be it positive or negative.
If a theist claims God exists and expects an atheist to agree, the burden of proof lies with the theist.
If an atheist claims there is no God and expects the theist to agree, the burden of proof lies with the atheist.
If a theist claims God exists and expects an atheist to agree, the burden of proof lies with the theist.
If an atheist claims there is no God and expects the theist to agree, the burden of proof lies with the atheist.
With the burden of proof, comes a burden to listen. So who is at fault, none of us agree on that.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
I have already mentioned that I have seen no proof for existence of any God, be it the Abrahamic God or the Hindu God or any other God or Goddess.
I don't want a sermon or a quote from a book, I want solid proof.
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
This is obviously not a proof. The "exact reality of who we are" doesn't really even mean anything - certainly not in the way you seem to be trying to use it here. To the extent is has a meaning, it doesn't require any sort of being to know what it is. The claim that it exists and the further claim that it requires some judge to see it, are both baseless assertions.