The Devil allows freedom of all false religions but not the true one.

[Link]

Hijaab is obligation per Quran for women to wear and matter of what God considers modesty per Quran. It's not symbolic clothes like you guys claim.

 

[Link]

Or.... you could stop with the exaggerations, the false dichotomies and the obvious intolerance and just... you know... act normal.

Normal is overrated, time to bring back the strange religion from Mohammad (s).

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Let's duke it out peacefully and give freedom of people to choose.

In secular democracies, people ARE free to choose.

But no, the west can't let that, minority rights over majority democracy model gone to exteme, let's oppress majority, put people trying to overthrow dictators in jail, all to keep the peace and justice you guys have right?

Your black and white thinking is showing again.
A democratic structure that protects minorities, does in no way imply that therefor the majority gets oppressed.

Perhaps you can't fathom a society where nobody is being oppressed?

And if you believe in one nation Muslims should unite on, you are an extremist, big one, trying to take people back centuries right? This is all dying, we will have our Muslim state, and I don't mind a Sunni scholar implementing shariah to the best of his knowledge as long as they allow dialogue with respect to it and allow people to choose government, I don't mind. Freedom of religions should be allowed.

What if the people choose to do away with such theocracy and move forward with a secular democracy instead?

Because that's pretty much what happened in the west during the enlightment...

The only Muslims who don't want this, is Wahabi Saudi Arabia people

And the majority of muslims who live in the secular west, primarily because they didn't like it in their islamic theocratic home country.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You talk about freedom of speech, except, when propaganda begins to defeat you, you get desperate and go all out to squash it.

My idea of freedom of speech is not yours. I do not support what you do. I am pleased to see those sites shut down. Not all types of speech should be protected, and never propaganda. If you assume that I should feel differently, it's because you have tried to define what freedom of speech should mean to me, which of course, means I should support the speech you support flowing freely. I don't.

I moved from America to Mexico, and in so doing surrendered the right to be politically involved unless I wanted to become a citizen. I would be deported for participating in a political protest. So what? Why is that a loss? I don't need to express those opinions.

All we want is Palestinians and Jews to live in one country in peace - and every participate in the country. Is that so wrong????

That's not credible. What the Palestinians want is to exterminate Israel and make the area all Arab. They tried for decades with no success. Now, they are willing to settle for equal status.

Not solved, because US gave the green light to Saudi Arabia to bomb them and fight them

So who bombed them? Other Arabs? Blame them.

Propaganda can be good or bad. It can be on truth or falsehood. It's for the people to judge, but, you guys just give lip service to freedom of speech.

Propaganda is always bad. It's the method chosen when education won't work. If one can't argue your position honestly using reason applied to evidence to produce sound conclusions, then he can keep his ideas to himself. I support any effort to quash propaganda.

It's a huge issue in America now, and threatens to topple the democracy. We see propaganda about stolen elections, presidents being reinstated, science and vaccines being harmful, climate change being a hoax, America falling to Communists, immigrants are criminals and diseased, people of color are coming for their jobs, Biden is demented, etc..

It's all destructive and it should all be suppressed vigorously. Yes, it is possible to go too far with suppression, but it is also possible not to go far enough in the defense of a principle that doesn't deserve the reverence it gets.

Do some real research into it, I might just open a thread about this topic, to show how duped you guys are by propaganda of your media.

I think the same of you. You seem pretty far along the road to radicalization. And you don't know how off-putting it is to hear you frame it in the language of having the truth of God and a battle of good versus evil. Nothing is so ominous as angry religious zealotry.

You support a government that does these things and system that leads to it. Until you are anti-oppressors and want a change to the system, you are as responsible as everyone else. This is the way I understand oppressors, their supporters, and those who are idle in watching it happen, all being partners in crime.

So you say. I have no duty to care about your religious causes, and if you want to say that not being an ally makes one an enemy, there's that ominous, angry, religious zealotry again.

My interest is in my community, not yours. I care about the battered women, hungry and orphaned children, local people struggling in my neighborhood. Hector's daughter has a malignancy and our expat community raised 50,000 pesos for her. Also, a local restaurant caught fire a few weeks ago, and we came together to get it reopened.

But you would depict me as your enemy for attending to these problems, which I can actually help, but not those of the Yemeni, who I cannot help at all, and frankly, whose problems are just another of hundreds or thousands of problems in the world that are beyond the reach of most of us.

By the way, notice that I didn't call you an enemy for not taking an active interest in our local problems. I don't expect you to help with our problems. Why would you? You've got your hands full with problems closer to home.

And there is good Muslims resisting oppressors called terrorists.

There you go. Those are the people you need to recruit.

What if we do want to become one nation and elect a government that oversees us all as one nation and that government is entrusted to implement the revelation of God.

That's not realistic. There is too much Muslim hating by other Muslims.

And if you want to unite to form a democratic state, you would have the West's support. But it looks like your vision is theocratic, and that's always a problem. I would support the effort to prevent that just as I do in the United States, where wannabe theocrats are also a threat.

all we ask is freedom of speech for us to propagate and dialogue.

You have that. You're expressing yourself freely now. What you want is the freedom to propagandize and radicalize. It seems the answer is no, and I support that.

And now they won't be enough, we can hack all your planes, go ahead bring them.

I guess you didn't learn anything watching the Palestinians releasing burning balloons intended to kill Israeli citizens. Did they forget about the modern army that would retaliate? Do they even care?

God remains the true king, your puppet regimes have some display of outer claim of power and authority today in the land, all for nothing on the day of judgment, when they and their supporters will all be in hell forever.

The Abrahamic theist's wet dream - all of them in hell to be tortured forever.

People want to have fun rather then think about justice and the oppressed.

Actually, I haven't seen you express much interest in justice or the oppressed if they aren't Muslims. Speaking of justice and oppression, what are you doing to help Americans that want to vote but have to navigate a series of obstructions intended to strip them of their vote? I mean, you're a justice guy, not just a justice for Muslims guy, right? You know, if you don't get involved, you're just as guilty as the Republicans. Not usually my standard, but it is yours, so I assumed you'd be cool with me calling problems you don't get involved in your fault.

But as a Muslim, by definition, we don't support Homosexual behavior or bi-sexual or gender confusion etc.

I do, as do most progressives in the West. Islam not only doesn't support these people, like Christianity, it actively seeks to make their lives worse, which is one of several reasons that I oppose both religions. You want our support, but not when you promote ideas like that.

I've said what I wanted to in this thread. I'm out.

So how do you think you did with your free speech? You had the opportunity to win hearts and minds over to your cause. Do you think your audience is more sympathetic to Muslim concerns now? How about more turned off by the Muslim world? Do you think you helped dispel the stereotype of the angry Muslim? Do you think you made Muslims and Muslim culture more or less palatable for your audience?

 

[Link]

Most Muslims who live in secular west want to revive the one Muslim nation. I know because I live in Canada and know this to be a fact about most Muslims my age at least and who I grew up with.

 

[Link]

See Muslims, they killing us, oppressing us, jailing us, because they hate theocracy. Now get up and show people Quran orders theocracy. This is first step raise awareness. I will make a thread about this.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I already explained the answer. We elect a government, and they decide per their best ability through Quran and Sunnah.

Why would you need to elect anyone at all, if all they are going to do is simply follow a 1500 year old handbook without being allowed to have any original ideas themselves to further develop society?

 

[Link]

Why would you need to elect anyone at all, if all they are going to do is simply follow a 1500 year old handbook without being allowed to have any original ideas themselves to further develop society?

Because:

(1) Act on knowledge (knowing is not enough)
(2)Interpretation matters of Quran and Sunnah
(3) Provide proofs to people their interpretation is correct to be elected (or at least try their best to convince majority through proper proofs)
(4)Held accountable if they go wrong and become corrupt.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Sexual corruption is not allowed in public, just as racism would not be allowed to be taught in public by a cult in high school for example. I hope I answered clearly.

You didn't answer anything at all. Instead, you merely repeated the assertion that I'm questioning.

Let's try again. You said that you think freedom of religion is important.
Then you mentioned a religious rule from your religion which you think should be legislated, concerning what your religion defines as "sexual corruption".

My hypothetical religion, which is different from yours and which you think is important because "freedom of religion", commands me to celebrate life by engaging in gay sex. This ritual is holy and divine and really important. As important, if not more, as a hijab is in your religion.

So, since you think freedom of religion is so important, we have a problem here. You legislated rules from your religion which are in contradiction with my religion. So what now?
Does your religion enjoy "more freedom" then mine, simply because its yours?

How do you resolve this conflict?

(I already know though - but I'ld like to be surprised)

 

[Link]

You didn't answer anything at all. Instead, you merely repeated the assertion that I'm questioning.

Let's try again. You said that you think freedom of religion is important.
Then you mentioned a religious rule from your religion which you think should be legislated, concerning what your religion defines as "sexual corruption".

My hypothetical religion, which is different from yours and which you think is important because "freedom of religion", commands me to celebrate life by engaging in gay sex. This ritual is holy and divine and really important. As important, if not more, as a hijab is in your religion.

So, since you think freedom of religion is so important, we have a problem here. You legislated rules from your religion which are in contradiction with my religion. So what now?
Does your religion enjoy "more freedom" then mine, simply because its yours?

How do you resolve this conflict?

(I already know though - but I'ld like to be surprised)

What if a religion taught racism towards blacks is holy and sacred, should they be allowed to propagate that in public?

There are limits to freedom of religion. Human sacrifices, even if a text says Adam (a) used to do them per "sages" or something like that, for example, it won't be tolerated.

Sexual corruption leads to people going into prostitutions which leads to slavery of some of those prostitutes, and human trafficking, which leads to even children being human trafficked. The Quran in both places it talked about scarf (hijaab) did it contrast with the other extreme which is forced prostitution.

And if you don't control the urges, the result, is as today: human trafficking including that of children is rampant in the world including the west.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So you have no proof and accuse me. So you wish this to be the case for me, but have not believed it on any proof?

I didn't accuse you. I said that I'm not convinced.
Did you "prove" that you are peaceful? No, you did not.

If you were an ISIS type dude who's secretly planning an attack against the "evil empirical west lead by the devil", would you tell us? No.
If we were to ask you if we should consider you hostile and a danger to the state, would you say "yes"? No.

So really, you are just asking us to just believe you.
Again, I'm not accusing you of anything.

I'm just not convinced that this mentality will not lead you to a path of violence eventually.
Can you really blame me?

This stuff you spew on this thread is very similar to the kind of nonsense we heard from all those petty criminals turned muslim, before they left for Syria and then came back to kill a few hundred people in Paris and Belgium.

No, I'm not calling you a terrorist, nor am I accusing you of such.

I'm just saying, the things you say, are the things those guys said before they turned violent.

Be honest here, do you really believe that I can simply rule it out that you eventually won't end up on that path?

Well, I'm sorry, but in this day and age.... people who talk like you and who reference the quran and allah every other sentence.... Are simply suspect. You can thank your violent muslim brothers for that.

To illustrate....
@Conscious thoughts is a muslim now as well.

However, I would trust the dude with my life. Why? Because his posts aren't filled with generalized hatred and intolerance. He doesn't speak about the "ow so evil secular west". He doesn't say vile things like the west being lead by "the devil". He doesn't call entire western civilization a bunch of sexually corrupt degenerates.

You? I wouldn't trust you with 10 bucks.
And you have only yourself to blame for that. It's a direct result of everything you've said in this thread.

///mic-drop

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I have hatred, and I heal by tempering it with discipline. You have hatred and brings you to chaotic ways of uncontrolled desires, corruption, and oppressing others.

See? It's stuff like that that I'm talking about in my previous post...

Your hatred is so blind, you don't even notice it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Talking to the monster dude who said I am full of hatred.

And your response only confirmed my point.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Here is wikipedia:

Islamic scarf controversy in France - Wikipedia

From Times.

Where France's Possible New Hijab Ban Fits Into History | Time

Thanks Sheikh Google.

None of those links mention a law where muslim women aren't allowed to wear a hijab at any workplace, like you claimed.

Where is this law?

 

[Link]

They aren't allowed wearing in public places, how can they wear it in work places? Come on dude.

Work place is understood to be public.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Hijaab is obligation per Quran for women to wear and matter of what God considers modesty per Quran. It's not symbolic clothes like you guys claim.

First of all, plenty of muslims would disagree with you on that.

Secondly, it is simply not true that it is not an obligation in other faiths

Thirdly, you completely ignored the question(s) asked.

 

[Link]

First of all, plenty of muslims would disagree with you on that.

Secondly, it is simply not true that it is not an obligation in other faiths

Thirdly, you completely ignored the question(s) asked.

Sikhs for example the men should be able to wear head covering.

If it's mandated by their religion, what's wrong with wearing it. You are trying to justify what has no justification. Secularism gone to extreme.

 

[Link]

First of all, plenty of muslims would disagree with you on that.

Whether there are some Muslims out there who disagree or not, the fact is it's clear in the Quran, with no wiggle room out of it in the linguistics. So they can choose to not believe in it, but it's still there in Quran if they ever want to check the verse out.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Most Muslims who live in secular west want to revive the one Muslim nation. I know because I live in Canada and know this to be a fact about most Muslims my age at least and who I grew up with.

Myea... you might want a slightly bigger sample before you go and say nonsense like that.

Why aren't they moving to the middle east, where such theocracies exist?
Why don't you move to Iran, for example?

Sounds like you would be a lot more happy there.

 

[Link]

Myea... you might want a slightly bigger sample before you go and say nonsense like that.

Why aren't they moving to the middle east, where such theocracies exist?
Why don't you move to Iran, for example?

Sounds like you would be a lot more happy there.

It's complicated and there are many reasons, they aren't your business, and I can do good here too and don't mind living in Canada.