Why do people leave Christianity?

[Sand Dancer]

In order to be "born again" they "must be born of water and spirit".....water by their baptism, and spirit with adoption by God's spirit, as his spiritual sons. They must put off their bodies of flesh and be 'born again' as spirit beings in order to enter heaven. Flesh and blood cannot go there.

Its not just a internal transformation on becoming a Christian, but an anointing by God's spirit to fulfill a specific future role in heaven. When God's Kingdom "comes" then God's will can "be done on earth as it is in heaven". Those with the "heavenly calling" will rule earthly subjects.

The role of a high priest is to serve God by directing the worship of the people, assisted by his priesthood. This was foreshadowed by the Temple arrangement with the Jewish priesthood.

Heaven is where they serve God, but their subjects are on earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)

Paul also called Jesus an "apostle" which means "one sent forth" and we know that Jesus was sent by his God and Father. (John 4:34; John 17:3)

I hope this wasn't an attempt to infer that I wasn't "really" a Christian to begin with...

 

[Deeje]

I hope this wasn't an attempt to infer that I wasn't "really" a Christian to begin with...

I was explaining what I believe being "born again" means......if you see 'inference' in my statements, then that is up to you....I gave you the Bible' view. Do with it what you will.....I am not your judge.

 

[Trailblazer]

That sounds like an oxymoron to me...

No, because there is soft proof and hard proof. Hard proof os in science, soft proof is everything else.

No, you're not biased by your beliefs at all, are you...?

Everyone has a certain bias, which is what they already believe. That includes you.

But what I said has nothing to do with my religious beliefs, it is simple logic. Since prophets make certain claims their claims are either true or false, making the prophets either true or false.

And you completely missed my point.

If we are FATED to do something, then we have no free choice.

And you completely missed my point. If something was written on the tablet of fate that means that God knew it would happen, but that does not me God caused it to happen. Humans cause it to happen by their own volition and ensuing action.

“This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

“Therefore, the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence........

The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

You're explanation was wrong. You don't seem to understand that fate means, "This particular outcome is 100% certain and you can't escape from it."

You really cannot think outside the box can you? We have to do what God knows we will do simply because God knows everything we will do, but what God knows is not what causes us to do what we do. We choose what we will do because we have free will.

Here you say that God guides our free will, yet you've also told me that he doesn't interfere with our free will in another thread. Your position is waving around more than the tail on a happy dog...

God guiding us and our choosing to go along with God is not interfering with our free will. If God makes us do something against our free will then that is forcing us, not guiding us.

Irrelevant.

The causal mechanism makes no difference. The only thing that is important is that if we are fated to do something, we can not avoid it no matter what.

Whatever is written on the Tablet of Fate is what we will do, but God knowing it will happen is not what causes it to happen. We cause it to happen by choosing it and acting on our choice.

Another monkey wrench is that everything that was written on the Tablet of Fate is not written in marble. If our fate is impending it can be altered by prayer and entreaty. God could also alter an irrevocable fate but He never does because such an alteration would cause more harm than good.

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

 

[Marcion]

I guess people leave for all sorts of reasons according to their personal history.

What springs to mind is:
* lack of proper effective spiritual practices (sadhana), too extroversive
* scriptures that are not very clear, often contradictory, sometimes even nasty
* too many people in the faith who don't live up to the standards of Jesus
* scriptures that are out of touch with the original teachings of Jesus
* too much antagonizing against other paths
* too much dogma and irrationality (no clear spiritual philosophy)
* too archaic and misogynistic

There is much good in Christianity but these could be some reasons people leave or are not attracted to it.

 

[Tiberius]

No, because there is soft proof and hard proof. Hard proof os in science, soft proof is everything else.

This "soft proof" sounds like just opinions that a person holds because they agree with what the person has already decided is true.

Everyone has a certain bias, which is what they already believe. That includes you.

That's why I use the scientific method as much as possible, because it has built in safeguards against letting bias influence the results.

But what I said has nothing to do with my religious beliefs, it is simple logic. Since prophets make certain claims their claims are either true or false, making the prophets either true or false.

You really expect me to believe that you talking about the nature of prophets is not influenced by your religious beliefs?

REALLY?

And you completely missed my point. If something was written on the tablet of fate that means that God knew it would happen, but that does not me God caused it to happen. Humans cause it to happen by their own volition and ensuing action.

“This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

“Therefore, the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence........

The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

I've already said the causal mechanism is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter HOW we are locked into the actions we are fated to perform, only that we ARE.

You really cannot think outside the box can you? We have to do what God knows we will do simply because God knows everything we will do, but what God knows is not what causes us to do what we do. We choose what we will do because we have free will.

Listen to yourself. You are contradicting yourself.

"We have to do..."

"We choose..."

If we HAVE to do it, there is no choice!

God guiding us and our choosing to go along with God is not interfering with our free will. If God makes us do something against our free will then that is forcing us, not guiding us.

Then how about you define exactly what you mean by "guiding us"?

Whatever is written on the Tablet of Fate is what we will do, but God knowing it will happen is not what causes it to happen. We cause it to happen by choosing it and acting on our choice.

Another monkey wrench is that everything that was written on the Tablet of Fate is not written in marble. If our fate is impending it can be altered by prayer and entreaty. God could also alter an irrevocable fate but He never does because such an alteration would cause more harm than good.

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

What you said has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

The causal mechanism makes no difference. The only thing that is important is that if we are fated to do something, we can not avoid it no matter what.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

"God opposes the proud, but gives Grace to the humble"

But why is God so stingy with His grace? Even sinners love those who love them.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I was explaining what I believe being "born again" means......if you see 'inference' in my statements, then that is up to you....I gave you the Bible' view. Do with it what you will.....I am not your judge.

Okay, I just wanted to make sure. You wouldn't believe how many times I have heard that since leaving the religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

This "soft proof" sounds like just opinions that a person holds because they agree with what the person has already decided is true.

No, it is kind of like hard and soft evidence.

What is hard and soft evidence?

Scientific results in a given area are considered hard facts by the people doing the work. The rest of the world reads the initial reports of the work and treats them as soft evidence, based on the reputation of the author, the author's institution, and the journal.

Soft versus Hard Evidence; Appeal to Authority etc. - Av8n.com

That's why I use the scientific method as much as possible, because it has built in safeguards against letting bias influence the results.

The scientific method does not work for investigating a religion. The safeguard is one’s own mind.

You really expect me to believe that you talking about the nature of prophets is not influenced by your religious beliefs?
REALLY?

I was not talking about the nature of prophets, I was talking about prophets being true or false.

I've already said the causal mechanism is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter HOW we are locked into the actions we are fated to perform, only that we ARE.

Only if there is a God who has fated them, but that is just a religious belief and there is no way it can ever be proven true, and it only applies if there is a God, as otherwise there is nobody to determine our fate.

I also explained how God can alter our fate if He chooses to, because God is all-powerful, so only the fate that is irrevocable is locked in.

Listen to yourself. You are contradicting yourself.

No, God does not cause what we do; God only knows what we will do.

If an astronomer knows when an eclipse will occur in the future, does that cause the eclipse to occur? The eclipse will occur because the astronomer knows it will occur by his precise calculations, but his calculations do not cause it to occur.

"We have to do..."

"We choose..."

If we HAVE to do it, there is no choice!

No, if it is irrevocably fated we will do it fated but we have to choose to do it and do it or it will not happen.

Then how about you define exactly what you mean by "guiding us"?

It means that God is somehow putting thoughts in our head, I don’t know how to explain it.

What you said has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

The causal mechanism makes no difference. The only thing that is important is that if we are fated to do something, we can not avoid it no matter what.

I guess you did not read that passage or you did not understand it. We can avoid it if it is an impending fate, because God can reverse it.

“The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.”

 

[halbhh]

But why is God so stingy with His grace? Even sinners love those who love them.

Great question!

We read a direct answer to your question:

"For God so loved the world (any who are sinners) that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

Christ came and suffered the direct impact of our evils -- the human evils we all do together in mass -- to suffer those without striking back, even all the way to death of the temporary mortal body, in order to break the grip of those evil over us.

To free us, so that we would be able to enter eternal life (be suitable, free from addiction to evil).

It's quite an act, for someone that had not done any wrongs to give up this life only for those that have done plenty of wrongs.

 

[Tiberius]

No, it is kind of like hard and soft evidence.

What is hard and soft evidence?

Scientific results in a given area are considered hard facts by the people doing the work. The rest of the world reads the initial reports of the work and treats them as soft evidence, based on the reputation of the author, the author's institution, and the journal.

Soft versus Hard Evidence; Appeal to Authority etc. - Av8n.com

I've never heard those terms used by any scientist. Also, the page you linked to is just some guy's website. There's nothing to suggest that his opinion is of any merit.

The scientific method does not work for investigating a religion. The safeguard is one’s own mind.

How very convenient. When science shows that there's no support for a religious belief, you can say, "Oh, but science just isn't the right tool," and you can leave it at that.

I was not talking about the nature of prophets, I was talking about prophets being true or false.

And if someone is a true prophet or if someone is a false prophet, is that not part of their nature?

Only if there is a God who has fated them, but that is just a religious belief and there is no way it can ever be proven true, and it only applies if there is a God, as otherwise there is nobody to determine our fate.

Again, no. It makes no difference if the one who has locked us in is God, Satan, the planet Jupiter or a peace of cow dung. The end result is the same.

I also explained how God can alter our fate if He chooses to, because God is all-powerful, so only the fate that is irrevocable is locked in.

And again, if there is one thing that is l;ocked in, then Everything must be locked in. If there is something that is not locked in, then there is some action that a person could take at that point which would completely nullify any locked-in event.

No, God does not cause what we do; God only knows what we will do.

If an astronomer knows when an eclipse will occur in the future, does that cause the eclipse to occur? The eclipse will occur because the astronomer knows it will occur by his precise calculations, but his calculations do not cause it to occur.

So it seems you can understand that the causal mechanism is irrelevant. I hope to never see you say otherwise again.

No, if it is irrevocably fated we will do it fated but we have to choose to do it and do it or it will not happen.

You sound like Yogi Berra. "It's absolutely certain that it will happen, but only if it happens." A whole lot of words to say something that has no useful information at all.

Also, claiming that it is fated and then claiming it is a choice is contradictory. If something is fated to happen, then it will happen no matter what, even if we actively try to stop it. That's about as far from a choice as it's possible to get.

It means that God is somehow putting thoughts in our head, I don’t know how to explain it.

Then how about God puts a thought in my head that causes me to become a Christian? By your own logic, that's not forcing me.

I guess you did not read that passage or you did not understand it. We can avoid it if it is an impending fate, because God can reverse it.

“The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.”

If it can be averted, then it's not fated, is it?

 

[Bree]

I was on the ex Christian sub and lot of people there seem to have only surface level knowledge of Christianity meaning they were either mislead by false teachers or they never truly understood the doctrine. Why do you think some people, when they don't understand something, they keep digging until it makes sense? While others use it as an excuse to leave the religion altogether?

When I come across something I don't get, it makes me search harder for the truth, it doesn't make me turn my back on God.

Jesus gave a really good illustration to show that there are 4 types of people and he gives an illustration about how they come to learn about God and why some get it and others fall away...this is what he said

Luke 8:5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. As he was sowing, some of them fell alongside
the road and were trampled on, and the birds of heaven ate them up.+
6 Some landed on the rock, and after sprouting, they dried up because they had no moisture.+
7 Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns that grew up with them choked them.+
8 But others fell on the good soil, and after sprouting, they produced 100 times more fruit.”+ As he said these things, he called out: “Let the one who has ears to listen, listen.”+
9 But his disciples asked him what this illustration meant.+ 10 He said: “To you it is granted* to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of God, but for the rest it is in illustrations+ so that, though looking, they may look in vain, and though hearing, they may not get the sense.+

11 Now the illustration means this: The seed is the word of God.+
12 Those alongside the road are the ones who have heard, and then the Devil comes and takes the word away from their hearts so that they may not believe and be saved.+ (these people hear but dont believe)
13 Those on the rock are the ones who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy, but these have no root. They believe for a while, but in a season of testing, they fall away.+ (these people are not committed)
14 As for that which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, but by being carried away by anxieties, riches,+ and pleasures of this life,+ they are completely choked and bring nothing to maturity.+ (these people let 'life' get in the way)
15 As for that on the fine soil, these are the ones who, after hearing the word with a fine and good heart,+ retain it and bear fruit with endurance.+ (these people have the heart to keep hold and make it their life)

 

[Ashoka]

I left because I went through religious trauma and emotional manipulation. I call myself an exvangelical for this reason, as well as an ex-catholic.

 

[GardenLady]

I think some leave because they find Christianity brutal. I don't believe this is truly the crux of Christianity, and is not something I find in my denomination of choice, but some denominations have morphed into brutal ideologies. I have found this true of some Catholic clergy and teachers and of some fundamentalist and Pentecostal clergy and teachers. They may talk of a God of love, but underneath is a constant drumbeat of threats and authoritarianism.

 

[John1.12]

I was on the ex Christian sub and lot of people there seem to have only surface level knowledge of Christianity meaning they were either mislead by false teachers or they never truly understood the doctrine. Why do you think some people, when they don't understand something, they keep digging until it makes sense? While others use it as an excuse to leave the religion altogether?

When I come across something I don't get, it makes me search harder for the truth, it doesn't make me turn my back on God.

Many leave because they are not saved .

 

[John1.12]

I left because I don't believe god(s) exist, and I was tired of pretending I did to keep friendships with people who required me to believe so in order to stay friends.

As a Christian , its good that you recognised the issue . There's lots of Christians who belive they are saved , believe they are following God in some way ,but are not saved .

 

[halbhh]

Jesus gave a really good illustration to show that there are 4 types of people and he gives an illustration about how they come to learn about God and why some get it and others fall away...this is what he said

Luke 8:5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. As he was sowing, some of them fell alongside
the road and were trampled on, and the birds of heaven ate them up.+
6 Some landed on the rock, and after sprouting, they dried up because they had no moisture.+
7 Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns that grew up with them choked them.+
8 But others fell on the good soil, and after sprouting, they produced 100 times more fruit.”+ As he said these things, he called out: “Let the one who has ears to listen, listen.”+
9 But his disciples asked him what this illustration meant.+ 10 He said: “To you it is granted* to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of God, but for the rest it is in illustrations+ so that, though looking, they may look in vain, and though hearing, they may not get the sense.+

11 Now the illustration means this: The seed is the word of God.+
12 Those alongside the road are the ones who have heard, and then the Devil comes and takes the word away from their hearts so that they may not believe and be saved.+ (these people hear but dont believe)
13 Those on the rock are the ones who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy, but these have no root. They believe for a while, but in a season of testing, they fall away.+ (these people are not committed)
14 As for that which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, but by being carried away by anxieties, riches,+ and pleasures of this life,+ they are completely choked and bring nothing to maturity.+ (these people let 'life' get in the way)
15 As for that on the fine soil, these are the ones who, after hearing the word with a fine and good heart,+ retain it and bear fruit with endurance.+ (these people have the heart to keep hold and make it their life)

Useful quote, and in verse 14, it's not really clear enough to say it's 'life' that people get caught up in -- after all 'life' after all includes things like raising children and loving one another, caring for the sick...things Christ said we are to do.

But instead it's these, as the text says: "anxieties, riches, and pleasures of this life", which are very specific and very helpful to understand clearly.

Certain pitfalls in particular.

So, it's not even having a lot to do per se, but instead it's "anxieties, riches, and pleasures of this life", of which we know many Americans today are caught in 1 or more.

In contrast, a person could be caught up in life in the sense of taking care of people and doing 'love one another' and then they are doing well (as Christ said, for instance in Matthew 25 and John 14, 15).

Thinking more about the real dangers listed, it's very easy to get caught up in consumerism, materialism, or overly focused (past occasional) on pleasures like rich food and drink, or worrying much about something, and these become harmful when they displace/replace what really matters most.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've never heard those terms used by any scientist. Also, the page you linked to is just some guy's website. There's nothing to suggest that his opinion is of any merit.

That’s true, it is just one man’s opinion. It does not matter anyway, I was just trying to explain that there are different kinds of evidence and not all evidence is hard facts.

How very convenient. When science shows that there's no support for a religious belief, you can say, "Oh, but science just isn't the right tool," and you can leave it at that.

It is not convenient, it is just reality. Science cannot support a religious belief, not anymore than religion can support science. Science and religion are two very different domains of knowledge so we cannot prove that religion is true using the same methods that we use to prove a scientific theory or a scientific fact.

And if someone is a true prophet or if someone is a false prophet, is that not part of their nature?

No, they both have a human nature so it only tells us whether they are telling the truth or not.

Again, no. It makes no difference if the one who has locked us in is God, Satan, the planet Jupiter or a peace of cow dung. The end result is the same.

If it was fated and the fate was irrevocable (locked in).

And again, if there is one thing that is locked in, then Everything must be locked in. If there is something that is not locked in, then there is some action that a person could take at that point which would completely nullify any locked-in event.

No, that is not how it works. Some fated are locked in and some fates are not locked in and God decides what will be locked in and what will not be locked in because God determines our fate. If a fate is locked in there is nothing we can do to change it but if it is not locked in there is an action we could take that might change it, but only if God decides to change it.

So it seems you can understand that the causal mechanism is irrelevant. I hope to never see you say otherwise again.

The causal mechanism is not irrelevant because everything has a cause. God does not cause anything to happen just because God knows it will happen, not anymore than the astronomer causes an eclipse to happen just because he knows it will happen.

You sound like Yogi Berra. "It's absolutely certain that it will happen, but only if it happens." A whole lot of words to say something that has no useful information at all.

I guess you did not understand what I said and admittedly it was poorly worded. Put another way, if a fate is irrevocable that means it cannot be changed so what was fated by God will happen to us no matter what. But if we do not act out our fate, what was fated will not take place. But if it is an irrevocable fate it has to take place so that means we will do what we were fated to do.

Also, claiming that it is fated and then claiming it is a choice is contradictory. If something is fated to happen, then it will happen no matter what, even if we actively try to stop it. That's about as far from a choice as it's possible to get.

That’s what I just said, if it is fated and the fate is irrevocable then we have no choice but to act it out and we cannot stop it from happening. But if the fate is impending then the choices we make might alter what the fate would have otherwise been.

Then how about God puts a thought in my head that causes me to become a Christian? By your own logic, that's not forcing me.

No, it wouldn’t be but God would only put such thoughts in your head of you were considering becoming a Christian, in order to help you along. But I don’t think God would do that because God is not looking to make more Christians since Christianity is not the religion God is working through in this new age. But if you were considering becoming a Baha’i, God might help you along, particularly if you were wrapped in veils, meaning that you were trying to see but your judgment was clouded so you were confused.

“God desireth not to straiten the heart of anyone, be it even an ant, how much less the heart of a superior creature, except when he suffereth himself to be wrapt in veils, for God is the Creator of all things.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 133

If it can be averted, then it's not fated, is it?

Think of it as a would-be fate that was averted. That is why people pray to God, hoping God might reverse what He has in store for them, what was fated. An omnipotent can do anything that is within His nature to do including reversing what He had fated.

The thing is that we can never know what God has fated, so all we can do is live our lives as best we can and try not to think about our fate.

 

[Alex22]

I find Abrahamic theology disgusting and nonsensical and so I returned to my roots.

 

[Trailblazer]

I find Abrahamic theology disgusting and nonsensical and so I returned to my roots.

Which Abrahamic theology? What were your roots?

 

[Alex22]

Which Abrahamic theology? What were your roots?

Eastern Orthodox/Greek and now I'm pagan.