If humans can't unite on religion, is there a purpose to religion?

[firedragon]

Perhaps not -- but surely it's an important consideration that all those intelligent people who can read and understand a "proof" would accept it. And really, aren't those the ones that the religious folk would really like to get over to their side?

You mean all those "intelligent people" who you mean are "atheists"? Are you saying that the theists are "unintelligent people"?

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not cherry picking but I do make connections between different verses. Because that's how you get a clearer picture of things. You put them together when they are speaking about the same topic.

Jesus said Moses wrote about me and so if you believe Moses you'll believe Jesus. Because Jesus is what Moses really talked about. (John 5:46)

That is cherry picking again.

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Moses wrote about many other things besides Jesus, so you picked one verse that refers to Jesus. For Christians everything is about Jesus, only it's not. The Old Testament is not about Jesus, it is about Moses and the other prophets. It is about the Jewish people. And all of the prophecies are not about Jesus either, many of them are about Baha'u'llah, who was the messiah the Jews have been waiting for.

 

[firedragon]

That is cherry picking again.

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Moses wrote about many other things besides Jesus, so you picked one verse that refers to Jesus. For Christians everything is about Jesus, only it's not. The Old Testament is not about Jesus, it is about Moses and the other prophets. It is about the Jewish people. And all of the prophecies are not about Jesus either, many of them are about Baha'u'llah, who was the messiah the Jews have been waiting for.

Well. Frankly, to Bahai's, every prophecy of eschatology in every religion are all about Bahaullah. So Christians are actually milder in this specific matter.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus said before Abraham was I am.

That is true, because the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world before Abraham was born in this world.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

Jesus is the Word of God from the beginning. As it says "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Those verses are about God, not about Jesus. All things were made through God since God created the heavens and the earth.

The Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word and the Holy Spirit, which signify the perfections of God, are the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When God sent Jesus, Jesus was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

So Jesus was there in beginning and He'll always be there. There is no other way to God and there never was.

So what you are saying is that the Jews who rejected Jesus have no way to God through Moses. I am sure Moses said he was the way to God in so many words before Jesus came to earth and Krishna said he was the only way. The after Jesus, Muhammad said he was the way, and then after Muhammad Baha'u'llah said he was the way to God. Thus you have no argument when you say that Jesus was the only way to God, all you have is a belief.

Even they in the old Testament waited for the manifestation of the Son of God who would take away their sins by mercy they already believed God could take their sins but they didn't know how God would do that.

And they didn't know how God would raise them from the dead even though they believed it. But Jesus is the resurrection and the life and Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world.

I am not disputing that Jesus took away our sins. Baha'u'llah wrote that Jesus besought the one true God the honor of sacrificing himself as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth and Baha'u'llah also wrote that by His sacrifice Jesus sanctified the soul of the sinner.

By the way, Jesus is God Himself anyway so there is that also.

No, Jesus is not God, and I proved it in these two posts on another thread.

#1800 Trailblazer

#1801 Trailblazer

 

[Brian2]

To me, that answer is definitely no.

But there is an illusion that we can't, because we won't. God can make all us unite forcefully, but won't, at the same time, is very disappointed we have united on division and have agreed to not unite on the truth but leave everyone to their own path.

I believe the truth can be arrived at as a whole race, we can come to it. But those who know truth tend to be apathetic of teaching it to others while great majority of humans want to decide what to follow per their desires rather then submit to God.

As a result, it looks like uniting on truth is impossible, but it's not.

The purpose for Christians is that Christians are united and support each other. We are reminded that we are together in Christ and because of Him. (we are the sheep in God's flock)
To praise and thanks God as a group. (we are the priests appointed by God to offer the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving)
To be a witness to the world. (we are the prophet of God communally to the world to proclaim Him and His salvation and hope and Kingdom)
A 3 part reason.
God, ourselves, the world.

 

[rational experiences]

My spiritual parent origin memory advice said family natural group is first.
Not science.
Not religious science as contradictions of science.

The family group.

So science Mr know it all learning to know it all experimenting to know it all says I had a look into our past. Human parents DNA was the same human parent DNA in all countries.

Must have emigrated he says.

No. That was where each parent spirit walked into the world of life from the eternal. Why they all owned the same DNA.

Spirit says most of humanity our origin. Not we know we are of spirit. Then argue science.

Science is just a practice a choice and humans are taught you chose to disobey gods stone laws.

Told.

Science is the choice to disobey natural. The laws of stone sealed fused.

Basic human common sense. We hurt changed life. By choice human by science.

When you realise we are all family then it is about time you acted like it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well. Frankly, to Bahai's, every prophecy of eschatology in every religion are all about Baha'u'llah. So Christians are actually milder in this specific matter.

Many of the Old Testament prophecies refer to Jesus. It is only the messianic age prophecies in the Old Testament and the messianic age prophecies in other religions that refer to Baha'u'llah. Also, the prophecies referring to the return of Christ in the New Testament refer to Baha'u'llah.

I admit that is a lot of prophecies but no more than Christians claim, because they believe that All the Old Testament and All the New Testament prophecies for the return of Christ and the coming of the messiah refer to Jesus. The only reason Christians do not claim the prophecies of other religions the way Baha'is do is because they do not acknowledge any other religions.

 

[F1fan]

Why not?

Because Hindus have the right to their own religious tradition and meaning without interference from people of other religions.

I mean there can't be two contradictory truths. Why would it work like that? Why would their be reincarnation in India but Jesus and resurrection in other places?

Or Christianity is all wrong, and Hinduism correct, right?

The Bible is just the written prophecies of prophets that were inspired by the holy Spirit but they aren't all the Word of God. The Word of God holds everything together.

That's fine for Christians. Not anyone else. That's why there are over a billion Muslims, they have their own thing going.

It's what keeps the universe from falling apart basically. I'd say that's pretty authoritative if it holds you and me together.

It's doesn't do any such thing. With some 41,000 sects of Christianity Jesus can't even hold Christianity togther.

 

[F1fan]

Just because some believers have certitude that does not mean they have the truth.

I suggest being certain about things that a rational person can't be certain about indicates a person that misses the truth, i.e., humility and wisdom.

I showed you the facts about Baha'u'llah but you rejected them.

No, you showed me claims, which isn't evidence.

 

[74x12]

Because Hindus have the right to their own religious tradition and meaning without interference from people of other religions.

I agree. I'm all for freedom of religion. But I think India should support freedom of religion also for people in India who want to be Christian and many choose it.

Or Christianity is all wrong, and Hinduism correct, right?

Well you're entitled to your opinion.

It's doesn't do any such thing. With some 41,000 sects of Christianity Jesus can't even hold Christianity togther.

Haha ...
He holds the body of Christ together that's all that really matters.

 

[Trailblazer]

I suggest being certain about things that a rational person can't be certain about indicates a person that misses the truth, i.e., humility and wisdom.

I am a rational person and I am certain of my beliefs. It is not my fault if other people cannot be certain.

No, you showed me claims, which isn't evidence.

That is a false accusation. I linked you to a long post that had the claims of Baha'u'llah and the evidence that supports those claims. Here it is again.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

 

[firedragon]

Many of the Old Testament prophecies refer to Jesus. It is only the messianic age prophecies in the Old Testament and the messianic age prophecies in other religions that refer to Baha'u'llah. Also, the prophecies referring to the return of Christ in the New Testament refer to Baha'u'llah.

I admit that is a lot of prophecies but no more than Christians claim, because they believe that All the Old Testament and All the New Testament prophecies for the return of Christ and the coming of the messiah refer to Jesus. The only reason Christians do not claim the prophecies of other religions the way Baha'is do is because they do not acknowledge any other religions.

What I am saying is, the prophecies Bahai's claim for Bahaullah definitely outdo the prophecies Christians claim for Jesus. All the religions. Not only the Bible, not only from Christianity.

Basically almost every single eschatological figure prophecies in almost every single religion is Bahaullah. And most of the Bahai's dont even know "How".

 

[Trailblazer]

What I am saying is, the prophecies Bahai's claim for Bahaullah definitely outdo the prophecies Christians claim for Jesus. All the religions. Not only the Bible, not only from Christianity.

Okay, I'll give you that.

 

[F1fan]

I agree. I'm all for freedom of religion. But I think India should support freedom of religion also for people in India who want to be Christian and many choose it.

So are you conceding that Christianity and the ideas about Jesus aren't relevant to those in India who are quite fervent in their religious tradition?

Well you're entitled to your opinion.

And religion is one kind of opinion. Thanks for extending freedom to reject your religious opinion.

Haha ...
He holds the body of Christ together that's all that really matters.

It's a body in terrible shape, but I guess that's good enough.

 

[Truthseeker]

To me, that answer is definitely no.

But there is an illusion that we can't, because we won't. God can make all us unite forcefully, but won't, at the same time, is very disappointed we have united on division and have agreed to not unite on the truth but leave everyone to their own path.

I believe the truth can be arrived at as a whole race, we can come to it. But those who know truth tend to be apathetic of teaching it to others while great majority of humans want to decide what to follow per their desires rather then submit to God.

As a result, it looks like uniting on truth is impossible, but it's not.

Those who hate other people because of religious divisions would be better off without it. We can have differences in our view of truth, but not hatred to go along with that. There are different paths to truth, different perspectives on what truth is. We should care about each other even though we have our differences.

If we investigated truth independently, without depending on parents or our peers or religious leaders, we could all come closer to the same truth, but there will always be a difference of our perspective on the same truths.

 

[Truthseeker]

Rabbi Rami Shapiro said something I find very helpful when it comes to apparent religious differences:

“Aren’t all religions equally true? No, all religions are equally false. The relationship of religion to truth is like that of a menu to a meal. The menu describes the meal as best it can. It points to something beyond itself. As long as we use the menu as a guide we do it honor. When we mistake the menu for the meal, we do it and ourselves a grave injustice.”

No religion has all the truth, but they all have part of it.

 

[Truthseeker]

Actually proof doesn’t exist in spiritual matters

The individual can find the truth if their spiritual eye is open. No one can prove their religion to another though, ultimately.

 

[Truthseeker]

War is an inherent, inescapable aspect of collective human nature. With or without religion, war will always exist.

Human nature has two aspects, the spiritual and the animal aspect. If the spiritual nature predominates in a person, he will be a good person.

War has decreased since WWII. Theirs been an increased consciousness that war has become too destructive, so it has to be avoided if we can. Factors such as increased instability in the future because of climate change causing 10s of millions of climate refugees could lead to war, triggering in turn an intolerance for those destructive wars happening anymore, leading to a world federation of national states, which would be a kind of peace, though not real unity. This is all just one possibility. Real unity between people would have to evolve over time. I have faith this unity will happen. I respect your right to disagree on this, though.

 

[Truthseeker]

I do not think that evil has to be eliminated altogether before peace can be established because that is unrealistic.

Absolutely.

 

[Truthseeker]

I believe that in Jesus' day the green door was Christianity and God wanted everyone to come to the green door and made it available to all.

But time marches on and the green door is no longer Christianity. I believe that the green door is now the Baha'i Faith, but since God has given us free will to choose which door we want to walk through, most people still walk through the doors of the older religions. I believe that eventually that will change and all the peoples of the world will walk through one door and unite behind it, but it will take a long time since most people prefer old doors to new doors.

Don't be that dogmatic about it. Christianity has truth as well as Baha'i that still applies today, though Baha'i restates those same truths in a somewhat different way. I'm talking about the original message by Jesus. We both know that in addition Baha'i has laws and institutions specific to our time that fit our time better as a solution to our problems.