Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
**** Mod Edit ****
You sure put a lot of "faith" in these "serious" scholars.
No zealotry here.
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Noah's flood story, did it happen?
- Thread starter SA Huguenot
- Start date
You sure put a lot of "faith" in these "serious" scholars.
No zealotry here.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
What do you mean? Much of it can be confirmed. Once again the Genesis account is from an older source. It was added to Hebrew mythology during the Babylonian exile. The Epic of Gilgamesh existed at that time. In fact before that time. And it was based upon an even older, non-Hebrew myth.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Faith is your flaw not mine.
Do you know why scholars are respected? Because they can support their claims. I see that you do not have any reliable sources for your claims. You need to be very wary of apologists for any religion. Their job is not to find the truth. It is merely to defend their made up beliefs.
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Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
Confirmed how?
That's obvious since Moses wasn't there for any of the events in Genesis.
But Noah wasn't a Hebrew.
Yes - the story of Noah happened long before these civilizations existed.
Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
*** Mod Edit **** - you haven't shared any sources - and I'm betting you won't.
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Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You need to be more specific in your questions. What do you need confirmed?
Of course Noah wasn't a Hebrew, people that never existed can't be Hebrews. I never claimed or implied that he was. It appears that you are having trouble following rather simple posts. This is the second time you raised that red herring.
And no, once again, the story of Noah is younger than that of the Babylonians. You do not have any evidence for your claim. I do have evidence for mine.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
There were two linked sources in the post where I told you that you needed sources.
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gnostic
The Lost One
Yes, “attributed”, which mean people ASSUME OR BELIEVE that he was the “author” of those books and those stories.
But “attributed” doesn’t mean he was actual real “author”.
You said most of my previous post were irrelevant, you wrote...
...but you are missing the points.
My points that not only the Genesis Flood was a myth and that it never happened in the way Genesis narrated Noah’s story; that Moses himself was also a myth.
And if Moses is a myth (as well as his “supposed” life story), then so him being attributed to be the “author” of those books are also fictional, invented.
You are making assumptions that Moses is real.
But the only existence of literary evidence that these books exist, post-dated during Josiah’s reign or later. No such books existed in the Late Bronze Age.
So if Moses didn’t write the Flood story, then really it is pointless to ask who was Moses’ “sources”.
I don’t who wrote Genesis, but it came from possibly many hands. For instances, there seems to be multiple different authors to the 2 creation stories - Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 & 3.
For instance, in Genesis 1 it say humans were made last, so that plants and vegetation and animals were created before there were humans. But in Genesis 2, it say god created Adam before there were vegetation and before there were animals. Two different orders of creation, which tell me there are two different myths.
And flood stories, there seemed to be multiple authors of 2 different versions Flood. For instance, did the Flood rained for 40 days or 150 days?
Both creation and flood have some contradictory details, because they are trying to enmeshed multiple myths into one book.
Anyway, I think Moses was invented character, where king Josiah tried to promote monotheism by having scribes invent a national “history”, which persisted after the fall of Jerusalem, hence an origin story that never happened.
gnostic
The Lost One
No, it is the other way around.
Genesis (as well as other books) don’t appear until the period between late 7th century (eg possibly with the silver scrolls are the earliest evidence of biblical texts) and 6th century BCE (eg Babylonian Exile and construction of the Temple upon their return).
There are no evidence that Genesis and Exodus existed in the Bronze Age.
Not only there are evidence that Babylonian flood exist, almost a complete set of clay tablets of the Epic of Gilgamesh (which included a story Utnapishtim’s flood) were found in the Neo-Assyrian library of Nineveh, which predated Josiah and the Babylonian exiles.
Then there are older clay tablets of Epic of Gilgamesh, not only in Mesopotamia, existing in the Bronze Age. Tablets were discovered outside of Babylonia and Assyria during mid-2nd millennium BCE, fragments were found -
- in Susa, Elam (Elam is a region, east of Mesopotamia, which is now western Iran);
- in the Hittite capital Hattusa;
- in Amarna, Egypt, a religious capital of Akhenaten (reign 1379 - 1362 BCE;
- at the archive in Ugarit, now Ras Shamra, in northwest Syria; and in the Canaanite Megiddo.
Still older tablets of the Epic, existed during the earlier 2nd millennium BCE or Middle Bronze Age (c 2000 - c 1550 BCE), or the 1st dynasty of Babylon (c 1880 - c1550 BCE). Just as important as the Epic of Gilgamesh, is the Epic of Atrahasis composed around 17th century BCE.
Atrahasis is the same flood hero as Utnapishtim. But even Atrahasis is based on earlier character, the Ziusudra. Ziusudra appeared and mentioned twice in the tablet called today, The Death of Bilgames, with Bilgames being earlier name for Gilgamesh.
This tablet only say Ziusudra survive the Deluge, but no details as to how. This tablet along with other tablets about Bilgames survived, and most likely written during the 3rd dynasty of Ur (22nd - 21st centuries BCE), which archaeologists and historians, referred to as the Sumerian Renaissance.
Although the Death of Bilgames only mentioned Bilgames having meet Ziusudra, there are some tablets labeled as the Eridu Genesis, narrated Ziusudra and the Flood. Unfortunately only parts of the tablets survived, because these tablets were badly fragmented, so the missing pieces are lost forever. But there are enough to say that Ziusudra is similar to the Epic of Atrahasis, and to the Nineveh’s tablet of Gilgamesh meeting Utnapishtim.
The points are Noah’s story were adapted from these earlier stories from Sumer/Babylonia/Assyria and not the other way around, as you claimed.
You're correct that it is not perfect, nor reliable as a reference.
Well it's apparent that scholars and historians can piece together many explanations about it. This tends not to please literalists..
It's safe bet to say it's full of embellishments.
No, objective still means objective. Belief is still defined as a judgment a human mind makes.
But it's clear that they aren't cats, and their "truth" is questionable. Truth has to mean something that's better than delusion, yes?
Well it can. let's say we are talking about bacteria and the Germ theory that Pasteur proposed was laughed at. The microscope proved the objective truth of bacteria and how they cause infection. It mattered that we accepted this because fewer people died.
As an example it's arrogant for a Christian to adopt the idea that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as savior is condemned to hell. I've had Christians tell me I'm going to hell because I don;t believe this one idea. They believe their ideas extend beyond their own mind and has authority over me and my fate. It's ironic given some of the teachings of Jesus, namely that believers should judge others. That would include using their dogma as a proxy for judgment. It's a serious flaw in Christian theology.
Mostly evangelical and other conservative forms of Christianity, and even Islam.
That's a very liberal interpretation of it, and is more in line with what Jesus taught.
Give examples of science that is plagued by dogmatism.
That's unethical and if researchers are caught, which happens now and again, they lose positions and funding. There can be pressure on researchers to attain results to get funding and I think this makes it political and causes un-needed stress on a system that needs the time and patience to operate properly.
gnostic
The Lost One
Since you have been asking for sources from @Subduction Zone, I will provide you some:
I bought these books myself and still have them on my bookshelf.
Then there are some links, from Sumerian sources:
Andrew George, The Epic Of Gilgamesh: A New Translation, 1999, Penguin Classics
This book not only included the Standard Version from the tablets discovered in the Neo-Assyrian royal library at Nineveh, it also have translations of 5 Sumerian poems about Bilgames.
Stephanie Dalley, Myths From Mesopotamia: Creation, The Flood, Gilgamesh, and Others, 1991, Oxford World's Classics
This one not only have the Epic of Gilgamesh, but also Epic of Atrahasis, the Epic of Creation (Marduk's myth), as well as other myths.
Thorkild Jacobsen, The Harps That Once...Sumerian Poetry In Translation, 1997, Yale University Press
This book only focused on Sumerian literature, but it contained the Flood story, as well as different Creation myths
This book not only included the Standard Version from the tablets discovered in the Neo-Assyrian royal library at Nineveh, it also have translations of 5 Sumerian poems about Bilgames.
Stephanie Dalley, Myths From Mesopotamia: Creation, The Flood, Gilgamesh, and Others, 1991, Oxford World's Classics
This one not only have the Epic of Gilgamesh, but also Epic of Atrahasis, the Epic of Creation (Marduk's myth), as well as other myths.
Thorkild Jacobsen, The Harps That Once...Sumerian Poetry In Translation, 1997, Yale University Press
This book only focused on Sumerian literature, but it contained the Flood story, as well as different Creation myths
I bought these books myself and still have them on my bookshelf.
Then there are some links, from Sumerian sources:
ETCSL (Electronic Texts Corpus of Sumerian Literature), they are responsible for translations and publishing their works on-line. Here where
- 1.7.4 The Flood Story (The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature)
- 1.8.1.4 Gilgmec, Enkidu and the Netherword (The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature)
- 1.8.1.3 The Death of Gilgamec (The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature)
- 5.6.1 The instructions of Curuppag (The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature)
- 2.1.1 The Sumerian king list (The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature)
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Just as a note, in the post where I told him that he needed sources I posted links to two sources for my claim in that video.
As to the actual flood itself he will not even define clearly what he believes. It is a rather strange strategy of "You cannot refute me if I refuse to tell you what I believe." This strategy allows one to claim "strawman" if any specific version is refuted. It is why I won't go past that point without a clear definition.
That the sources of the Noah's Ark myth was likely from the Babylonian exiled came up later.
joelr
Well-Known Member
When the Israelites emerged they began writing their own myths. Every culture does this, it's religious syncretism. They took the flood myths they had heard and wrote their own setting it centuries in the past. They couldn't write it as a recent event because there obviously wasn't a recent flood. Noah is a fictional character. He lived to be over 500 years old, this is mythology. The first Israelites were even using Ashera who was a Goddess from the culture they came out of. Ashera was the consort of Yahweh. Archeologists have found Ashera figurines and writings that say "Yahweh and his Ashera".
They did not commit to monotheism until the 2nd temple period 6BC when scripture says they decided they were being punished for worshipping false Gods. This was the high priests response to being invaded again, this time by the Persians.
The ancient Mesopotamians were not writing the same story. Gilamesh and Enkidu and numerous Gods and monsters are part of an epic story found on many clay tablets. The idea that this was actually Yahweh, the names are wrong, its 5 months instead of 6 days and endless other changes is not likely. The Israelites just took the basic concepts of a flood from a God, landing on a mountain and so on and made a new story.
Just read the Mesopotamian myths:
Epic of Gilgamesh - Wikipedia
Some of the issues with the Noah myth being true from the video are:
Of all flood narratives (hundreds) in almost 1/2 they are not created by divine origin, no God. You think they would forget that? So they are not all the same myth being copied by other cultures.
Almost all flood myths come from societies that live near the sea or a major river.
Noah and his wife were 500 years old and only then did they have 3 children?
A count of all animals and insects of the time is about 2, 065, 000
Yahweh instructed to take animals by "sevens" rather than 2.
Noah also needed food for all animals for 1 year. 370 bales of hay would be needed for just the elephants.
A JW pamphlet points out every "kind" of animal would be put on the ark rather than every species. This makes for less animals. But now you have to believe that in 4000 years 1 kind of monkey got off the ark and now we have 330 species? Same for every other "kind" of animal.
This would require the most rapid evolution ever. Which fundamentalists don't even believe in.
Most animals could not survive without special equipment, lighting and such.
The Ark floated for 5 months and ended up close by on Mt Ararat, 450 miles?
All mammals since this time came from Mt Ararat but the distribution of mammals shows this is impossible. The further away from Mt Ararat would show fewer mammals. The distribution of mammals show far more mammals in places far away from the Middle East.
Why a God wouldn't just use magic to change humans in some way rather than kill billions of animals?
All of the flood myths the versions near Mesopotamia are the most similar. Likely from an actual flood of the Tigris river.
The myth is about re-birth and taking it literal to mean a sky-god reigns destruction when people mis-behave means you miss the actual point of the story.
Luke claims the flood was an actual event.
John claims Jesus watched the building of the Ark and the flood from heaven.
Showing the NT is likely also a made up story rather than divinely inspired.
gnostic
The Lost One
Yes they do.
They also do it, to make them believe they are "special", "chosen". It is a cultural thing.
The evidence that there was never a flood such as described in the story of Noah is all around you.
That's to say, if Mt Everest had been under water in the last (say) 10,000 years then the evidence for that even would be everywhere you look. Instead, there's no evidence at all. None. Zip. Nada.
For example ─
Since all the land animals would have bred from not more than seven and mostly one breeding pair, including three human breeding pairs, we'd find in the genes of all of them a genetic bottleneck, and all the genetic bottlenecks would point to the one date.
But even though that would inescapably be the case if the story were true, Instead we find nothing even remotely resembling it.
And we'd have a single geological flood layer all over all continents and islands and all over the ocean floor, every sample of which dated to a single year.
If the story were true, it would have to be there, no other possibility. Instead, there's nothing even vaguely like it anywhere.
And to cover the top of Mt Everest you'd need something over 1 billion cubic miles of water over and above the water presently on the earth. Do the sum if you doubt it.
Ahm, I read your account about the water, but it simply doesn't match the facts. Nothing of the kind happened.
Then we have the continuance of civilizations when the Flood was supposed to have happened. There's no sign of it in the earliest civilization we know of, Çatal Hüyül in Anatolia, beginning about 7000 BCE (that is, some 5,500 years before the earliest evidence for Yahweh). There's no sign of any such interruption to the civilizations of Sumer, Egypt, Harappa, China.
And then, the Noah story is taken from the (non-Semitic) Sumerians' story of Ziasudra, which found its way into (the Semitic) Akkadians' lore by 2000 BCE, where the hero is called Uta-Napishti, and we can comfortably assume that the story traveled from Semitic Mesopotamia to Semitic Canaan in time for the present version to be known to the authors of the early Tanakh. It's true that there's evidence of big floods on the Euphrates and the Tigris at long intervals, so they're the chief suspect for the source of the tale.
But if you can demonstrate your claim with evidence satisfactory to science, don't post here, win yourself a Nobel prize and start by publishing your demonstration in a reputable and peer-reviewed journal such as Nature.
gnostic
The Lost One
According to the bible, of course not.
But in matter of historicity, Noah isn't a real person. And he is based on older figure from older myth, the Babylonian/Assyrian Utnapishtim, who was based on the older Old Babylonian Atrahasis, and Atrahasis is based on older still Sumerian legendary figure, Ziusudra.
Basically, the Hebrews adapted Utnapishtim, and invented their own version of the Flood myth.
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
Any which way you can!
ecco
Veteran Member
It is asked by all rational people who are trying to determine if Genesis is fact or myth.
Also asked is how did all kinds of animals come to the ark.
Also asked is how did all kinds of animals get from the ark to their lands like Hawaii and Australia.
Also asked is if there was a worldwide flood, would there be any evidence of it now. That one I can answer. Yes, there would be a lot of evidence
Also asked is there any evidence outside of the scriptures that the flood happened. That one I can answer. No, there is not. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch.
Where is this written?
Just think, if Marcion had won out, you wouldn't have to twist your mind all out of shape to justify these stories. You would be laughing at them and anyone who believed them.
Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
Why are you so lazy?
You claimed in Post #131 that,
"Noah was fictional. The Hebrews took an older Babylonian story and adapted that fictional story to their own personal mythology."
To which I replied in post #139,
"I cannot confirm or deny any of this. No one can."
Then in Post # 142 you said in response,
"What do you mean? Much of it can be confirmed."
Which led me to ask you in Post #144
"Confirmed how?"
You made your claims in Post #131 - and you also claimed that "much of it can be confirmed".
So - confirm them. Confirm that Noah was fictional. Confirm that his story is not a common story shared by both Hebrews and ancient Mesopotamians.
The story of Noah is not "Hebrew mythology" since it is not a story of Hebrews.
Kinda like how "American history" isn't about Australians.
It is a story that can be shared by any and all.
But you claimed that it was the same story told by ancient Mesopotamians that was "adapted" by the Hebrews.
The same events could have inspired both versions - meaning that neither is older or younger.
You have yet to provide any evidence of your claims.
And I - on the other hand - have never claimed to have any evidence for mine.
So - the "burden on proof" is upon you - since you keep insisting that you have it.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Please, you are projecting. You were sloppy and lazy in your questions so I asked for clearer ones. That is all. No need for the excessive and distorted play by play.
No, even though the Hebrews did not originate the idea it did become part of their mythology and since they put their own twist on the story it is now "Hebrew mythology".
Except history shows that was not the case. They did not pick up the story until contact, some of it forced, with the Babylonians. Much older versions of it can be found in Babylonian sources than in Hebrew sources. And as you know it is a myth. It is an event that never happened. The entire Earth was never flooded while man lived on it. Man himself was never threatened by a massive flood. And since you cannot even be specific in your claims all that is needed are general arguments to refute you.
As other have pointed out, and I so often like to point out to, the myth would have left a universal population bottleneck. One is not to be seen. The lack of evidence of an event can refute the event.