Tiberius
Well-Known Member
I told you many posts ago that the prophecies that were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah are not the best evidence and they are not the evidence that Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at. In fact, He never told us to look at the prophecies, that is just something I did because Iwas posting to Christians.
Some time ago when asked for evidence I posted the claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah on this thread:
Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah
Then why bother with the prophecies at all?
I also told you that they all pass your criteria although no prophecy can pass #5 because all prophecies no matter how specific they are can be interpreted in more than one way.
All prophecies that exist in the real world that I'm aware of, yes. But that vague language is not something that prophecies are required to have. It's possible to produce a prophecy that has very clear and concise language.
The fact that prophecies never have it is a result of the fact that the prophets who provide these prophecies are full of bunk and they know that they have to be vague because anything that is actually specific will be easily disproved.
I never claimed that is why I know. I know because if the evidence (see above).
Since we are not talking of the evidence for your faith, but for the validity of prophecies regardless of the faith, I won't reply to this.
Yes, that is true in some cases.
I think more like ALL cases.
They do pass all your criteria except #5 The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation. I contest that being on your list because there is no prophecy that is not open to different interpretations no matter how specific it is. This prophecy I cited before is very specific:
Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
While there is only one correct interpretation, people do not all interpret it the same way. For example, someone could not figure out who he referred to so that person changed he to they!
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(12) In that day also he shall come.—Rather translate, In that day shall they (impersonal) come even to thee from Assyria and (from) the cities of Matzor (i.e., Egypt), and from Matzor even to the river (Euphrates), and from sea to sea, and (from) mountain to mountain. The prophet beholds people coming from all parts of the earth to Jerusalem. Isaiah foresaw the like future, and spoke of Assyria, Egypt, and Israel being assembled together, “whom the Lord of Hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt, my people, and Assyria, the work of my hands, and Israel, mine inheritance” (Isaiah 19:25). The Christian reader can hardly refrain from discerning on the horizon of Micah’s vision that marvellous assembly of the representatives of the nations in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost.
It says he, not they. It is referring to the Messiah who was Baha’u’llah and who travelled to all those places, not of his own free will but because he was banished and exiled for 40 years.
But does it meet the new first criteria, that it isn't something that is likely to happen anyway?
Prophecy
· the foretelling or prediction of what is to come.
· something that is declared by a prophet, especially a divinely inspired prediction, instruction, or exhortation.
· a divinely inspired utterance or revelation: oracular prophecies.
· the action, function, or faculty of a prophet.
Definition of prophecy | Dictionary.com
A prophecy is a prediction of what is to come so the prophet who wrote the prophecy had to have some knowledge of what was going to happen in the future in order to write the prophecy. What the prophet knew in the past has nothing to do with the man who read the Bible and later decided to do what the prophecy says.
I prophecise that before the end of this month, you will go to the toilet more than a dozen times! You will also bathe frequently!
Behold, I am a prophet now! And if my prophecies come to pass, you must respect my authority!
See the problem here? I know for a fact that you are definitely going to go to the toilet before this month is over. That doesn't make me a prophet. And it doesn't mean my announcement about your future toilet habits is a prophecy.
You said: And if the prophecy was only fulfilled because someone embellished the event that allegedly fulfilled it to make it look like the prophecy was correct, but the actual event didn't happen as described and so didn't fulfill the prophecy, then again, it's not worth bothering with it because the claim it was fulfilled is wrong.
The prophecy would still be correct as written, but if a man embellished the event that the prophecy was referring to in order to make it appear as if it had been fulfilled, then the actual event didn't happen as described and so didn't fulfill the prophecy.
Do you think that a prophecy is correct before it has been fulfilled? I don't see why we should hold that position.
In that case, it would not be not worth bothering with the man who claimed to have fulfilled the prophecy because he would have been a phony because his claim that it was fulfilled is wrong. However, the prophecy is still right and another man might come along and fulfill it by doing what was written in the prophecy, not deliberately, but because that is what he was destined by God to do.
No. You can't say a prophecy is correct just because it MIGHT be fulfilled.
I could claim to be a millionaire and say that I'm correct because I MIGHT win the lotto tomorrow.
Apparently we are talking at cross purposes because I am assuming a divinely inspired scripture that truly predicts the future Second Coming of Christ/Messiah and you are talking about anyone who could have been an idiot, who might have had knowledge of the future. The problem with your proposition is that if it was not a divinely inspired prophet who predicted the Second Coming of Christ/Messiah, whatever was predicted would have been of no importance, so who cares if this person did somehow have knowledge of the future? Do you understand what I am saying?
The problem, though, is this. If you see an old text with a prophecy in it, how do you tell the difference between something that was written by some joker making up whatever nonsense he felt like and something that was written because God gave them information about the future?
I am glad you removed that criterion because I did not really understand what you were getting at. From my perspective, the need for several prophecies about the same thing would mean that there would need to be several prophecies that refer to one event that will take place when Christ returns, and there are several prophecies about the same events in the Bible. However there is not always more than one prophecy about the same event and that is not a requirement in order for a prophecy pertaining to an event to be valid.
Actually, I believe the idea about having several prophecies that all speak of the same thing was your idea.
Are you saying that if there is only one prophecy pointing to one person (e.g. Micah 7:12), if the fulfillment of that prophecy passes all your criteria you would be willing to believe that the person who fulfilled the prophecy was the man that the prophecy was referring to?
It would certainly make me sit up and take notice, that's for sure.
But I have a few questions.
Is Micah 7:12 part of the official collection of Baha’i writings? The Universal House of Justice was asked about this in 1998, and they said it wasn't.
Also, Micah 7:11 specifies that the prophecy places the time of the fulfillment at the same time that the walls were rebuilt. This happened in 445 BC when Artaxerxes, king of Persia, allowed his Judean cupbearer, Nehemiah, to return to Jerusalem to rebuild the wall.
Baha’is Misinterpret Micah 7:12
I have a bit of a problem with this criterion because I have been thinking about something completely different from what you are thinking about. I am thinking about the Second Coming of Christ/coming of the Messiah which is supposed to happen eventually as predicted (prophesied) in the Old Testament.
Once again, I am talking about criteria to be applied to prophecies in general, not one specifically.
Anyway, since Jesus returning from heaven is something that I would consider NOT likely to happen anyway, a prophecy about such an event would pass the first criteria.