Loved ones in hell - take 2.

[Tiberius]

No, I was just demonstrating that there can be more than one interpretation.
Not only that, but more than one interpretation can be correct, and more than one interpretation can be incorrect.

More than one interpretation can be correct? That sounds like a bad way to communicate information. Any method of communication that is intentionally vague (which it would have to be if it is to have more than one correct interpretation) sounds like a bad way to communicate information. Why not just be clear and concise at the the start? Sure, you have to write down two prophecies instead of one, but that's a small price to pay, I think.

Your criteria #5 The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation is completely unrealistic because even if a prophecy is specific it is always open to interpretation and there are as many interpretations as there are people.
That not only applies to prophecies; it applies to anything people write since no two people think exactly alike.

No.

I can deliver information in a clear and concise way. "The car is travelling in a southwards direction along Smith Street in Townsville, and it has just crossed First avenue." This information is not really open to interpretation.

The way we can know which interpretation of a Bible prophecy is correct is by knowing the "big picture" and who the prophecy refers to. Otherwise one is just shooting in the dark.

So you can't know how to interpret it until you know who it's referring to, but you can't be sure who it is referring to until you know how to interpret it.

Bit of a problem there.

And that is why prophecies are pretty worthless as proof of who was the return of Christ/the Messiah, UNLESS one is willing to look at how those prophecies were fulfilled by the claimant, Baha'u'llah. Once one sees how they were fulfilled everything starts to fall into place.

But you have to start by assuming that Baha'u'llah was the one that fulfilled them.

Christians start by assuming that Jesus was the one who fulfilled them, and they are just as certain of their convictions as you are, and you each claim that the other is wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

More than one interpretation can be correct? That sounds like a bad way to communicate information.

What I meant is that a prophecy can have more than one meaning, and more than one meaning can be correct. The purpose of prophecies is not to communicate information they everyone will understand, so you are making a false assumption right out of the door. Prophecies are not supposed to be a easy to figure out as they are a way that God tests our sincerity and willingness to make an effort to unravel the meaning. They are not supposed to be clear and concise like a car repair manual.

No.

I can deliver information in a clear and concise way. "The car is travelling in a southwards direction along Smith Street in Townsville, and it has just crossed First avenue." This information is not really open to interpretation.

But it was not the GOAL of the writers to be clear and concise. They never wanted to make it easy to figure out what the prophecies mean. Thta is not how Prophets write. They were not even thinking down the line "is Joe Smith going to be able to figure out what this prophecy means 4000 years from now?"

So you can't know how to interpret it until you know who it's referring to, but you can't be sure who it is referring to until you know how to interpret it.

Bit of a problem there.

You might know what some prophecies are saying but if you did not know that someone had fulfilled them you would understand what they mean. That is what I meant by "shooting in the dark." For example, all the following prophecies refer to the Messiah, who was the Glory of the Lord. You can read them and understand what they are saying, but of you did not even know that "Glory of the Lord" refers to the Messiah you would not even know these are messianic prophecies. For example, Jews believe that believe the prophecies below are about the nation of Israel. They have no idea that they refer to the what will happen when the Messiah comes, what we will see in Israel.

"Israel, who are now lame, will jump like a deer; Israel, currently muted among the nations, will sing because of G-d's salvation. They will blossom like a desert upon receiving springs of water. Those who long for salvation will be saved - compared to dry places becoming pools of water." Isaiah - Chapter 35 - Nach Yomi - OU Torah

However, when we know who the Glory of the Lord was and that He was the Messiah we know these are all prophecies that refer to what we will see on Mount Carmel when the Messiah comes, and this is exactly what we saw when Baha'u'llah walked the earth. That is all documented in history and geography demonstrates it.

"The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose."(Isaiah 35:1)

“It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.”(Isaiah 35:2)

"Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert." (Isaiah 35:6)

"And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes." (Isaiah 35:7).

"And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein." (Isaiah 35:8)

"And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10)

"I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water." (Isaiah 41:18)

“Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel.” (Micah 7:14)

Below is another example of a prophecy whose meaning and application has been disputed.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Jews believe this prophecy is about Hezekiah the son of Ahaz and the 13th king of Judah. He is considered a very righteous king, a man that lived thousands of years ago. Christians believe that this prophecy refers to Jesus, just because it says "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given" and of course they assume that can only be Jesus. However, Christians are hard pressed to explain how Jesus can be the one who fulfilled any of these prophecies.

These prophecies cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

Baha'is believe that these prophecies are about Baha'u'llah. We believe that Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because world peace will be established during the age in which we are now living. Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy, but they will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government). Baha'is also believe that Baha'u'llah is sitting on the throne of David, and what that means to us is that He brought the Most Great Law by which the Kingdom of God will be established with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

So at least the Baha'is have something that Baha'u'llah did that matches up to what the prophecy says; by contrast, the Jews tried to make it fit someone it does not fit and the Christians are hoping Jesus will come and do these things "someday." The problem with that is Jesus never said that He was going to return and do anything.

But you have to start by assuming that Baha'u'llah was the one that fulfilled them.

Christians start by assuming that Jesus was the one who fulfilled them, and they are just as certain of their convictions as you are, and you each claim that the other is wrong.

I did not start by assuming that. I already knew that Baha'u'llah was the Messiah from everything else I knew about Him before I ever looked t the prophecies, and then the prophecies confirmed that.

Christians can say that Jesus fulfilled them but most Christians know full well that Jesus has not done most of the things that are in the Old Testament prophecies so all they can say is that Jesus will do those things when He returns. That won't work because Baha'u'llah already fulfilled them or by His coming they were fulfilled, so even if Jesus showed up tomorrow there would be no prophecy to fulfill.

 

[Tiberius]

What I meant is that a prophecy can have more than one meaning, and more than one meaning can be correct. The purpose of prophecies is not to communicate information they everyone will understand, so you are making a false assumption right out of the door. Prophecies are not supposed to be a easy to figure out as they are a way that God tests our sincerity and willingness to make an effort to unravel the meaning. They are not supposed to be clear and concise like a car repair manual.

I honestly can't believe you are using this argument. It's like saying that a code that can be decoded into more than one message is better than a code that only has one meaning.

But it was not the GOAL of the writers to be clear and concise. They never wanted to make it easy to figure out what the prophecies mean. Thta is not how Prophets write. They were not even thinking down the line "is Joe Smith going to be able to figure out what this prophecy means 4000 years from now?"

How convenient if you come across some nonsense that someone wrote a thousand years ago and want to claim it supports your religious belief.

You might know what some prophecies are saying but if you did not know that someone had fulfilled them you would understand what they mean. That is what I meant by "shooting in the dark." For example, all the following prophecies refer to the Messiah, who was the Glory of the Lord. You can read them and understand what they are saying, but of you did not even know that "Glory of the Lord" refers to the Messiah you would not even know these are messianic prophecies. For example, Jews believe that believe the prophecies below are about the nation of Israel. They have no idea that they refer to the what will happen when the Messiah comes, what we will see in Israel.

"Israel, who are now lame, will jump like a deer; Israel, currently muted among the nations, will sing because of G-d's salvation. They will blossom like a desert upon receiving springs of water. Those who long for salvation will be saved - compared to dry places becoming pools of water." Isaiah - Chapter 35 - Nach Yomi - OU Torah

However, when we know who the Glory of the Lord was and that He was the Messiah we know these are all prophecies that refer to what we will see on Mount Carmel when the Messiah comes, and this is exactly what we saw when Baha'u'llah walked the earth. That is all documented in history and geography demonstrates it.

"The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose."(Isaiah 35:1)

“It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.”(Isaiah 35:2)

"Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert." (Isaiah 35:6)

"And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes." (Isaiah 35:7).

"And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein." (Isaiah 35:8)

"And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10)

"I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water." (Isaiah 41:18)

“Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel.” (Micah 7:14)

Below is another example of a prophecy whose meaning and application has been disputed.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Jews believe this prophecy is about Hezekiah the son of Ahaz and the 13th king of Judah. He is considered a very righteous king, a man that lived thousands of years ago. Christians believe that this prophecy refers to Jesus, just because it says "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given" and of course they assume that can only be Jesus. However, Christians are hard pressed to explain how Jesus can be the one who fulfilled any of these prophecies.

These prophecies cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

Baha'is believe that these prophecies are about Baha'u'llah. We believe that Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because world peace will be established during the age in which we are now living. Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy, but they will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government). Baha'is also believe that Baha'u'llah is sitting on the throne of David, and what that means to us is that He brought the Most Great Law by which the Kingdom of God will be established with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

So at least the Baha'is have something that Baha'u'llah did that matches up to what the prophecy says; by contrast, the Jews tried to make it fit someone it does not fit and the Christians are hoping Jesus will come and do these things "someday." The problem with that is Jesus never said that He was going to return and do anything.

So by your own admission, you can twist a prophecy to mean anything you want, and sometimes even more than one thing, and then claim you know what the prophecy was meant to mean?

By this reasoning, I can interpret a recipe for chocolate chip cookies to be a prophecy about the end of the world, and then claim< "It can be about the end of the world AND chocolate chip cookies, because you said prophecies can be about more than one thing!"

How can you not see how terrible that argument is?

I did not start by assuming that. I already knew that Baha'u'llah was the Messiah from everything else I knew about Him before I ever looked t the prophecies, and then the prophecies confirmed that.

So you didn't start with the conclusion that he was the messiah, you started out with the conclusion he was the messiah?

If you start by concluding he is the messiah and you come across a prophecy you conclude is about the messiah, then of course you're going to start by assuming the prophecy is about Baha'u'llah.

Christians can say that Jesus fulfilled them but most Christians know full well that Jesus has not done most of the things that are in the Old Testament prophecies so all they can say is that Jesus will do those things when He returns. That won't work because Baha'u'llah already fulfilled them or by His coming they were fulfilled, so even if Jesus showed up tomorrow there would be no prophecy to fulfill.

I'm sure I can find quite a few fulfilled prophecies that apply to Jesus and not Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

I honestly can't believe you are using this argument. It's like saying that a code that can be decoded into more than one message is better than a code that only has one meaning.

I am not using any argument. I never said it was better; I said that was the way it was written and there was a reason it was written that way. No scripture is written like a car repair manual why would prophecies IN that scripture be any different?

How convenient if you come across some nonsense that someone wrote a thousand years ago and want to claim it supports your religious belief.

I do not claim it does, I know it does, but I do not need prophecies to support my religious belief.

So by your own admission, you can twist a prophecy to mean anything you want, and sometimes even more than one thing, and then claim you know what the prophecy was meant to mean?

Yes, anyone can make a prophecy mean what they want it to mean, so Christians twist the prophecies so they sound like they are about Jesus, and Jews twist the prophecies so they can be about them, because they believe that the Messiah is coming to vindicate them and restore them to their former glory as the chosen people.

By this reasoning, I can interpret a recipe for chocolate chip cookies to be a prophecy about the end of the world, and then claim< "It can be about the end of the world AND chocolate chip cookies, because you said prophecies can be about more than one thing!"

How can you not see how terrible that argument is?

This is not an argument because I am not defending the way prophecies were written and how that can be interpreted; I am just explaining it. What do you think you can do if you don’t like the way the Bible prophecies were written? You can accept that reality or you can complain about it or just ignore them, but you cannot change Bible canon.

So you didn't start with the conclusion that he was the messiah, you started out with the conclusion he was the messiah?

If you start by concluding he is the messiah and you come across a prophecy you conclude is about the messiah, then of course you're going to start by assuming the prophecy is about Baha'u'llah.

I guess you did not understand what I said. I knew that Baha’u’llah was the Messiah before I ever read one page of the Bible. No, I am not going to assume the prophecy is about Baha’u’llah, I am going to know it is because I know the history of the Baha’i Faith, so I know how these prophecies were fulfilled. I will give you a simple example this time instead of overwhelming you with a long list of prophecies.

Micah promised, the Messiah would: “Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel.” (Micah 7:14)

My records showed that when Bahá’u’lláh was released from captivity in the final years of his life, he pitched his tent in a small wood in the midst of Carmel. Seated in that tiny clump of cypress trees on the side of that stony, barren mountain, Bahá’u’lláh pointed out the spot where the Shrine of the Báb, his herald, should be erected. From there, he poured out his teachings to his followers. He fed his people and his flock with his words of love and kindness...

There in the midst of Carmel, Bahá’u’lláh linked his own mission with that of Jesus. He addressed the following words to that holy mountain where the feet of Christ had walked:“Render thanks unto Thy Lord, O Carmel. The fire of thy separation from Me was fast consuming thee, when the ocean of My presence surged before thy face, cheering thine eyes and those of all creation … He, verily, loveth the spot which hath been made the seat of His throne, which His footsteps have trodden, which hath been honoured by His presence, from which He raised His call, and upon which He shed His tears.” Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Section XI, p. 15.

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

I'm sure I can find quite a few fulfilled prophecies that apply to Jesus and not Baha'u'llah.

You sure can, because many of the Old Testament prophecies are referring to Jesus. However, none of the Old Testament prophecies that were referring to what would happen during the messianic age which we are now living are referring to Jesus, they all refer to Baha’u’llah. One reason Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah is because Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies that refer to the messianic age.

 

[Tiberius]

I am not using any argument. I never said it was better; I said that was the way it was written and there was a reason it was written that way. No scripture is written like a car repair manual why would prophecies IN that scripture be any different?

Definition of ARGUMENT

Definition 1b and 2.

And the reason it was written that way was because it's entirely meaningless, and any meaning it is believed to have is that which is placed on it by people who read it afterwards.

I do not claim it does, I know it does, but I do not need prophecies to support my religious belief.

No, you do not know. We've been over this before. Your strongly held belief is not the same thing as knowledge.

Yes, anyone can make a prophecy mean what they want it to mean, so Christians twist the prophecies so they sound like they are about Jesus, and Jews twist the prophecies so they can be about them, because they believe that the Messiah is coming to vindicate them and restore them to their former glory as the chosen people.

And people of the Bahai faith can do it to...

I know, I know, you can show that your claims about the prophecies are correct. Guess what? So can everyone else.

This is not an argument because I am not defending the way prophecies were written and how that can be interpreted; I am just explaining it. What do you think you can do if you don’t like the way the Bible prophecies were written? You can accept that reality or you can complain about it or just ignore them, but you cannot change Bible canon.

I know I can't change Bible canon.

But you have to realise, it's not an issue for me, because I generally consider what's in the Bible to be nonsense. The prophecies particularly so.

I guess you did not understand what I said. I knew that Baha’u’llah was the Messiah before I ever read one page of the Bible. No, I am not going to assume the prophecy is about Baha’u’llah, I am going to know it is because I know the history of the Baha’i Faith, so I know how these prophecies were fulfilled. I will give you a simple example this time instead of overwhelming you with a long list of prophecies.

Micah promised, the Messiah would: “Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel.” (Micah 7:14)

My records showed that when Bahá’u’lláh was released from captivity in the final years of his life, he pitched his tent in a small wood in the midst of Carmel. Seated in that tiny clump of cypress trees on the side of that stony, barren mountain, Bahá’u’lláh pointed out the spot where the Shrine of the Báb, his herald, should be erected. From there, he poured out his teachings to his followers. He fed his people and his flock with his words of love and kindness...

There in the midst of Carmel, Bahá’u’lláh linked his own mission with that of Jesus. He addressed the following words to that holy mountain where the feet of Christ had walked:“Render thanks unto Thy Lord, O Carmel. The fire of thy separation from Me was fast consuming thee, when the ocean of My presence surged before thy face, cheering thine eyes and those of all creation … He, verily, loveth the spot which hath been made the seat of His throne, which His footsteps have trodden, which hath been honoured by His presence, from which He raised His call, and upon which He shed His tears.” Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Section XI, p. 15.

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

Again, your belief does not become knowledge simply because you hold it strongly.

You sure can, because many of the Old Testament prophecies are referring to Jesus. However, none of the Old Testament prophecies that were referring to what would happen during the messianic age which we are now living are referring to Jesus, they all refer to Baha’u’llah. One reason Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah is because Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies that refer to the messianic age.

And here we go again. The important fact here is that your interpretation is not shared by many Christians, thus showing that the prophecies fail at point 5.

 

[Trailblazer]

And the reason it was written that way was because it's entirely meaningless, and any meaning it is believed to have is that which is placed on it by people who read it afterwards.

It cannot be “entirely meaningless” if people place a meaning on it.

No, you do not know. We've been over this before. Your strongly held belief is not the same thing as knowledge.

I do know according to 2. below. You cannot tell me what I know, only I know that.

3 Ways to Know Something
There are 3 main ways.

1. Experiential (Empirical)

With experiential, you know something because you’ve “experienced” it – basically through your five senses (site, hearing, touch, smell, and taste.)

2. Cognitive (Rational)

With cognitive, you know something because you’ve thought your way through it, argued it, or rationalized it.

3. Constructed (Creational)

With constructed, you know something because you created it – and it may be subjective instead of objective and it may be based on convention or perception.

3 Ways to Know Something

And people of the Bahai faith can do it to...

But we don’t have to twist the meaning since it was fulfilled by Baha’u’llah and as such we know what it means.

I know, I know, you can show that your claims about the prophecies are correct. Guess what? So can everyone else.

No, they can’t because they have no return of Christ/Messiah who fulfilled the prophecies.

I know I can't change Bible canon.

But you have to realise, it's not an issue for me, because I generally consider what's in the Bible to be nonsense. The prophecies particularly so.

So why are we talking about the Bible prophecies?

Again, your belief does not become knowledge simply because you hold it strongly.

Straw man. I never said it did. No beliefs are knowledge because if they were knowledge they would not be beliefs.

And here we go again. The important fact here is that your interpretation is not shared by many Christians

It is not shared by Christians because they are still waiting for Jesus to return and they will wait till hell freezes over, but the Baha’i interpretation of the prophecies did not fail since Baha’u’llah fulfilled them all.

 

[Tiberius]

It cannot be “entirely meaningless” if people place a meaning on it.

People have made a career of spilling paint on canvas and selling it to people who buy it because they find meaning in random paint splotches. People find meaning in clouds, tea leaves and the shapes formed when animal entrails fall out of a carcass. it does not actually mean that there is any real meaning there to find.

I do know according to 2. below. You cannot tell me what I know, only I know that.

3 Ways to Know Something
There are 3 main ways.

1. Experiential (Empirical)

With experiential, you know something because you’ve “experienced” it – basically through your five senses (site, hearing, touch, smell, and taste.)

2. Cognitive (Rational)

With cognitive, you know something because you’ve thought your way through it, argued it, or rationalized it.

3. Constructed (Creational)

With constructed, you know something because you created it – and it may be subjective instead of objective and it may be based on convention or perception.

3 Ways to Know Something

The same thing has lead people to KNOW that they were the reincarnated form of Jesus.

But we don’t have to twist the meaning since it was fulfilled by Baha’u’llah and as such we know what it means.

And Christians can claim that they have prophecies that they are certain of for exactly the same reasons. If they can be wrong, so can you.

No, they can’t because they have no return of Christ/Messiah who fulfilled the prophecies.

They've got plenty of prophecies they claim have been fulfilled which prove that their faith is right and yours is wrong.

So why are we talking about the Bible prophecies?

Because you said that prophecies existed only to "help us determine who the return of Christ/Messiah was." Back in post 260. And you are the only person who has been quoting Bible passages here.

Straw man. I never said it did. No beliefs are knowledge because if they were knowledge they would not be beliefs.

It's not a strawman if you said you know when all you actually have are beliefs and not knowledge.

It is not shared by Christians because they are still waiting for Jesus to return and they will wait till hell freezes over, but the Baha’i interpretation of the prophecies did not fail since Baha’u’llah fulfilled them all.

Correction: In your opinion, the prophecies were fulfilled. There are lots of people who would say your opinion is wrong. I don't see why I should believe you over them. Like you, they can also point to a bunch of fulfilled prophecies to support their claims.

Now, since we have a bunch of prophecies that are showing different mutually exclusive things, we need a way to figure out which are the right ones and which are the wrong ones. And that's why I have my five criteria. You know, the ones you complained about right from the moment I suggested them?

 

[Trailblazer]

People have made a career of spilling paint on canvas and selling it to people who buy it because they find meaning in random paint splotches. People find meaning in clouds, tea leaves and the shapes formed when animal entrails fall out of a carcass. it does not actually mean that there is any real meaning there to find.

What has meaning (in a philosophical sense) is a subjective thing so what is “meaningful” to you is probably not meaningful to me. So who’s to judge?

The same thing has lead people to KNOW that they were the reincarnated form of Jesus.

So what? That does not mean I don’t know cognitively, because I have thought my way through it. I also know because of the evidence I have even it if is not evidence to you.

And Christians can claim that they have prophecies that they are certain of for exactly the same reasons. If they can be wrong, so can you.

No, Christians cannot claim that, because Jesus has not returned to earth and fulfilled any prophecies.

They've got plenty of prophecies they claim have been fulfilled which prove that their faith is right and yours is wrong.

That’s a different subject. They have plenty of prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus at His first coming but they do not have any prophecies that were fulfilled by His Second Coming because there was no Second Coming and there never will be.

The prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus at His first coming do not prove Christianity is right and the Baha’i Faith is wrong. They simply prove that Jesus was the Messiah who the Old Testament prophets predicted, which Baha’is fully believe.

Because you said that prophecies existed only to "help us determine who the return of Christ/Messiah was." Back in post 260. And you are the only person who has been quoting Bible passages here.

They do, but if you believe they are worthless in that regard, why bother to look at them?

It's not a strawman if you said you know when all you actually have are beliefs and not knowledge.

They are not knowledge in the sense of being factual, but not all knowledge is factual.

knowledge;

1. facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.

2. awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation.

knowledge means - Google Search

Correction: In your opinion, the prophecies were fulfilled. There are lots of people who would say your opinion is wrong. I don't see why I should believe you over them.

Of course there are a lot of people who are going to not agree that they were fulfilled because religious people will use any excuse to keep on believing what they believe. I never said that you should believe me over them. I said that you should go and determine that for yourself by reading the book Thief in the Night by William Sears. The first principle of the Baha’i Faith is independent investigation of truth.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

Proofs of Prophethood

Like you, they can also point to a bunch of fulfilled prophecies to support their claims.

No they cannot do that since Jesus has not returned and Christians know full well that there are many prophecies that were not fulfilled at Jesus’ first coming.

Now, since we have a bunch of prophecies that are showing different mutually exclusive things, we need a way to figure out which are the right ones and which are the wrong ones. And that's why I have my five criteria. You know, the ones you complained about right from the moment I suggested them?

Your criteria do not determine what the right prophecies are and what the wrong ones are. As I said before, there are just the prophecies and they cannot be changed. If you mean that certain ones would be more useful to you in determining if Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be, that is a different matter altogether. There is a whole list of prophecies to choose from delineated in the book Thief in the Night.

 

[Tiberius]

What has meaning (in a philosophical sense) is a subjective thing so what is “meaningful” to you is probably not meaningful to me. So who’s to judge?

And yet we are talking about prophecies that allegedly have specific meaning in the real world, so this talk of subjective opinions does not apply - unless you want to admit that prophecies do not reflect reality.

So what? That does not mean I don’t know cognitively, because I have thought my way through it. I also know because of the evidence I have even it if is not evidence to you.

And that's exactly the same evidence that the people who claimed to be Jesus had. If it could be wrong for them, then it could be wrong for you.

No, Christians cannot claim that, because Jesus has not returned to earth and fulfilled any prophecies.

Psst, you know they have prophecies about other stuff too, right?

That’s a different subject. They have plenty of prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus at His first coming but they do not have any prophecies that were fulfilled by His Second Coming because there was no Second Coming and there never will be.

Christians would say, "Citation needed."

They do, but if you believe they are worthless in that regard, why bother to look at them?

I haven't been. I've been ignoring them, to be honest. Because we are not talking about the validity of specific prophecies, we are discussing how we can tell if prophecies can be reliable. That's why I've presented those five criteria.

They are not knowledge in the sense of being factual, but not all knowledge is factual.

knowledge;

1. facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.

2. awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation.

knowledge means - Google Search

Please, give me an example of some specific bit of knowledge that is NOT factual.

Of course there are a lot of people who are going to not agree that they were fulfilled because religious people will use any excuse to keep on believing what they believe. I never said that you should believe me over them. I said that you should go and determine that for yourself by reading the book Thief in the Night by William Sears. The first principle of the Baha’i Faith is independent investigation of truth.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

Proofs of Prophethood

So given this principle seems to recognise the importance of verifying things as truth, I have to wonder why you've constantly been dumping on the five criteria I presented as ways by which we can determine if a prophecy is true.

No they cannot do that since Jesus has not returned and Christians know full well that there are many prophecies that were not fulfilled at Jesus’ first coming.

Seems I have to remind you again that Christians actually DO have a bunch of fulfilled prophecies. At least, from their point of view. I don't buy into it, since their prophecies fail with my five criteria just as yours do.

Your criteria do not determine what the right prophecies are and what the wrong ones are. As I said before, there are just the prophecies and they cannot be changed. If you mean that certain ones would be more useful to you in determining if Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be, that is a different matter altogether. There is a whole list of prophecies to choose from delineated in the book Thief in the Night.

Are you determined to not understand what I am telling you? I've lost count of how many times I've said that the criteria are a way for us to evaluate the validity of a prophecy and it's perceived fulfillment, NOT an instruction book that needs to be followed when the prophecies are written.

 

[Trailblazer]

And yet we are talking about prophecies that allegedly have specific meaning in the real world, so this talk of subjective opinions does not apply - unless you want to admit that prophecies do not reflect reality.

You were the one who switched subjects on me and I just followed your lead.

People have made a career of spilling paint on canvas and selling it to people who buy it because they find meaning in random paint splotches. People find meaning in clouds, tea leaves and the shapes formed when animal entrails fall out of a carcass. it does not actually mean that there is any real meaning there to find.

The prophecies do reflect what happened in the real world. How else could we connect them to a person who allegedly fulfilled the prophecies by his coming into the world?

And that's exactly the same evidence that the people who claimed to be Jesus had. If it could be wrong for them, then it could be wrong for you.

You just committed two logical fallacies, the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization and the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions.

The Christians cannot claim what the Baha’is claim because they do not have the same kind of evidence. The history of Christianity cannot be verified whereas the history of the Baha’i Faith was chronicled so we know exactly what happened to Baha’u’llah from birth to death. Christianity only has the sayings of Jesus that came by way of oral tradition and was written down decades later by men who never even knew Jesus. By contrast, the Baha’i Faith has the original writings of Baha’u’llah that were penned in his own hand and stamped with his official seal. These writings (our scriptures) have been authenticated by modern methods if handwriting analysis. Not only that but Baha’u’llah actually fulfilled all the Bible prophecies and on top of that he made predictions of his own that all came to pass. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

Psst, you know they have prophecies about other stuff too, right?

I never denied that, but they cannot say that Jesus will be the return of Christ unless Jesus returns. They can believe it, that is all they can do but belief is not proof of anything.

Christians would say, "Citation needed."

I have provided all the Bible verses that say that Jesus is not coming back to this world and verses where Jesus says his work was finished here, and I have asked Christians to provide any verses wherein Jesus says he is coming back to this world. No Christian has ever been able to provide me with any such verses because they do not exist.

I haven't been. I've been ignoring them, to be honest. Because we are not talking about the validity of specific prophecies, we are discussing how we can tell if prophecies can be reliable. That's why I've presented those five criteria.

That is a dead subject because the prophecies are what they are since the Bible is canon. It is not like you purchased something at the store that was defective and you can take it back to the store for a refund or an exchange.

Please, give me an example of some specific bit of knowledge that is NOT factual.

Knowledge is a familiarity, awareness, or understanding of someone or something, such as facts (descriptive knowledge), skills (procedural knowledge), or objects (acquaintance knowledge). By most accounts, knowledge can be acquired in many different ways and from many sources, including but not limited to perception, reason, memory, testimony, scientific inquiry, education, and practice. The philosophical study of knowledge is called epistemology.

The term "knowledge" can refer to a theoretical or practical understanding of a subject. It can be implicit (as with practical skill or expertise) or explicit (as with the theoretical understanding of a subject); formal or informal; systematic or particular.[1] The philosopher Plato famously pointed out the need for a distinction between knowledge and true belief in the Theaetetus, leading many to attribute to him a definition of knowledge as "justified true belief".[2][3] The difficulties with this definition raised by the Gettier problem have been the subject of extensive debate in epistemology for more than half a century.[2]

Knowledge - Wikipedia

So given this principle seems to recognise the importance of verifying things as truth, I have to wonder why you've constantly been dumping on the five criteria I presented as ways by which we can determine if a prophecy is true.

You can use your five criteria to help you determine which prophecies to look at, which ones are useful, and you can use your five criteria to determine if you are willing to believe a prophecy has come true (what I have been referring to as being fulfilled).

Seems I have to remind you again that Christians actually DO have a bunch of fulfilled prophecies. At least, from their point of view. I don't buy into it, since their prophecies fail with my five criteria just as yours do.

Your five criteria do not determine whether or not a prophecy has been fulfilled, they can only he used to determine if a prophecy will be useful for you.

I never denied that Christians had fulfilled prophecies as per Jesus, I only ever said that Jesus did not fulfill the messianic age prophecies because this is the messianic age and Jesus has not returned.

Are you determined to not understand what I am telling you? I've lost count of how many times I've said that the criteria are a way for us to evaluate the validity of a prophecy and it's perceived fulfillment, NOT an instruction book that needs to be followed when the prophecies are written.

You cannot evaluate the validity of a prophecy. You cannot say a prophecy is not valid because it does not meet MY five criteria because that is a judgment call, and it would only be YOUR personal opinion that the prophecy is not valid. All you can do is evaluate it's perceived fulfillment.

 

[Tiberius]

The prophecies do reflect what happened in the real world. How else could we connect them to a person who allegedly fulfilled the prophecies by his coming into the world?

It's all made up, and he was just a person.

You just committed two logical fallacies, the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization and the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions.

Nah, I'm just pointing out that a person who says, "I know it cognitively because I've thought my way through it, and I have evidence, even if you don't think it's evidence," can still be completely wrong.

The Christians cannot claim what the Baha’is claim because they do not have the same kind of evidence. The history of Christianity cannot be verified whereas the history of the Baha’i Faith was chronicled so we know exactly what happened to Baha’u’llah from birth to death. Christianity only has the sayings of Jesus that came by way of oral tradition and was written down decades later by men who never even knew Jesus. By contrast, the Baha’i Faith has the original writings of Baha’u’llah that were penned in his own hand and stamped with his official seal. These writings (our scriptures) have been authenticated by modern methods if handwriting analysis. Not only that but Baha’u’llah actually fulfilled all the Bible prophecies and on top of that he made predictions of his own that all came to pass. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

Ah yes. I'm sure once you explain it, all the Christians will be astounded and start convert en masse.

Knowledge is a familiarity, awareness, or understanding of someone or something, such as facts (descriptive knowledge), skills (procedural knowledge), or objects (acquaintance knowledge). By most accounts, knowledge can be acquired in many different ways and from many sources, including but not limited to perception, reason, memory, testimony, scientific inquiry, education, and practice. The philosophical study of knowledge is called epistemology.

The term "knowledge" can refer to a theoretical or practical understanding of a subject. It can be implicit (as with practical skill or expertise) or explicit (as with the theoretical understanding of a subject); formal or informal; systematic or particular.[1] The philosopher Plato famously pointed out the need for a distinction between knowledge and true belief in the Theaetetus, leading many to attribute to him a definition of knowledge as "justified true belief".[2][3] The difficulties with this definition raised by the Gettier problem have been the subject of extensive debate in epistemology for more than half a century.[2]

Knowledge - Wikipedia

Perhaps you misunderstood when I asked for a SPECIFIC example.

You can use your five criteria to help you determine which prophecies to look at, which ones are useful, and you can use your five criteria to determine if you are willing to believe a prophecy has come true (what I have been referring to as being fulfilled).

Your five criteria do not determine whether or not a prophecy has been fulfilled, they can only he used to determine if a prophecy will be useful for you.

I never denied that Christians had fulfilled prophecies as per Jesus, I only ever said that Jesus did not fulfill the messianic age prophecies because this is the messianic age and Jesus has not returned.

I don't know why you're making this about specific prophecies. I've been clear from the start that my five criteria apply to ALL prophecies.

You cannot evaluate the validity of a prophecy. You cannot say a prophecy is not valid because it does not meet MY five criteria because that is a judgment call, and it would only be YOUR personal opinion that the prophecy is not valid. All you can do is evaluate it's perceived fulfillment.

No, I'm pointing out that unless a prophecy meets all five criteria, we can never claim that it has been truly fulfilled. The five criteria are used to make sure that it's not a situation where it just looks like it has been fulfilled.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[Trailblazer]

Nah, I'm just pointing out that a person who says, "I know it cognitively because I've thought my way through it, and I have evidence, even if you don't think it's evidence," can still be completely wrong.

That person can be completely wrong or they can be right.

Ah yes. I'm sure once you explain it, all the Christians will be astounded and start convert en masse.

No they won’t because they are completely closed-minded and brainwashed by the Church to believe that “Jesus is the Only Way.”

Perhaps you misunderstood when I asked for a SPECIFIC example.

“Please, give me an example of some specific bit of knowledge that is NOT factual.”

A specific example is my practical understanding of the Baha’i Faith.

(See Knowledge - Wikipedia)

I don't know why you're making this about specific prophecies. I've been clear from the start that my five criteria apply to ALL prophecies.

Your five criteria do not determine whether or not a prophecy has been fulfilled or not, they can only he used to determine if a prophecy will be believable to you.

 

[Tiberius]

That person can be completely wrong or they can be right.

Yes. And since you claim to be such a person in regards to your claims that you know it cognitively. You could be wrong, couldn't you?

No they won’t because they are completely closed-minded and brainwashed by the Church to believe that “Jesus is the Only Way.”

Ah yes. Everyone else is closed-minded and brainwashed. But luckily you have found The Truth (tm), so you can be sure you are right!

“Please, give me an example of some specific bit of knowledge that is NOT factual.”

A specific example is my practical understanding of the Baha’i Faith.

(See Knowledge - Wikipedia)

Doesn't count. It is a fact that your religion is practised a certain way. It is a fact that you hold a particular set of beliefs. Try again.

Your five criteria do not determine whether or not a prophecy has been fulfilled or not, they can only he used to determine if a prophecy will be believable to you.

I can't see why anyone would want to believe a prophecy has been fulfilled if it doesn't fit those five criteria. Can you tell me why I should believe that a prophecy has been fulfilled if it doesn't meet all of them?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes. And since you claim to be such a person in regards to your claims that you know it cognitively. You could be wrong, couldn't you?

Hypothetically speaking, yes, and you could also be wrong.

Ah yes. Everyone else is closed-minded and brainwashed. But luckily you have found The Truth (tm), so you can be sure you are right!

I did not say everyone else, I was talking about Christians. Look around you on this forum, are you blind? Show me one Christian that is OPEN to looking at any other religion. By contrast, I look at Christianity all day long, and I look at other religions such as Islam and Buddhism and Hinduism.

Yes, I am sure I am right, but I do not profess to have the only true religion and I never said that Baha’u’llah was the only Messenger who has EVER been sent by God.

Doesn't count. It is a fact that your religion is practised a certain way. It is a fact that you hold a particular set of beliefs. Try again.

You asked for some specific bit of knowledge that is NOT factual. It does count according to the definition of Knowledge.

I can't see why anyone would want to believe a prophecy has been fulfilled if it doesn't fit those five criteria. Can you tell me why I should believe that a prophecy has been fulfilled if it doesn't meet all of them?

I never said that YOU should believe that a prophecy has been fulfilled if it doesn't meet all your criteria, but everyone is not like YOU so everyone doesn’t need to use your criteria to determine if a prophecy has been fulfilled or not.

 

[Tiberius]

Hypothetically speaking, yes, and you could also be wrong.

Which is why we need some way to verify our beliefs.

You asked for some specific bit of knowledge that is NOT factual. It does count according to the definition of Knowledge.

So you are claiming that it is not a fact that you have those beliefs?

I never said that YOU should believe that a prophecy has been fulfilled if it doesn't meet all your criteria, but everyone is not like YOU so everyone doesn’t need to use your criteria to determine if a prophecy has been fulfilled or not.

But the person who doesn't use my criteria is at risk of believing a prophecy that is false, aren't they?

 

[Trailblazer]

Which is why we need some way to verify our beliefs.

Beliefs cannot be verified, all we have is evidence that indicates that they are true.

So you are claiming that it is not a fact that you have those beliefs?

Is it a fact that I have those beliefs according to this definition?

fact
something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

But the person who doesn't use my criteria is at risk of believing a prophecy that is false, aren't they?

No, not necessarily, and using the criteria is no guarantee they will be able to identify that man who fulfilled the prophecy; it is much more involved than that, so a person who used them could still end up believing someone fulfilled the prophecy when they didn't.

 

[Tiberius]

Beliefs cannot be verified, all we have is evidence that indicates that they are true.

No, you have anecdote. Anything for which you have actual evidence for I am not disputing. Did Baha'u'llah actually exist? Sure, why not. I'm not disputing that, am I?

But was he really a messenger from God?

I'm not even disputing the fact that he claimed to be a messenger from God, nor the fact that he believed to be a messenger from God.

But I am disputing the claim that he actually was a messenger from God. You don't have any evidence to support that claim. All you have are the fact that he claimed to be so, and a person claiming to be something isn't sufficient to prove they actually are what they claim to be.

Is it a fact that I have those beliefs according to this definition?

fact
something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

I will take it as a fact that you hold those beliefs, just the same way that it is a fact that I am an atheist, it is a fact that I am a Star Trek fan, and that it's a fact that I prefer Android over Apple. Now, technically it is possible that it's NOT a fact that you hold that belief, but I can't see why you would do that.

But remember, you holding a religious belief is not enough to prove that the religious belief in question is the correct one.

No, not necessarily...

True. They could get lucky.

But that's like a guy who packs a parachute by just cramming it into the pack and then jumping out of a plane. There's no guarantee it will work, because he didn't pack the parachute according to the criteria that must be met to have a properly packed parachute.

...and using the criteria is no guarantee they will be able to identify that man who fulfilled the prophecy; it is much more involved than that, so a person who used them could still end up believing someone fulfilled the prophecy when they didn't.

And there's your mistake.

The criteria are not designed to find the guy who fulfilled the prophecy. They are designed to determine if the prophecy is something we should even bother with in the first place.

I mean, if you have a prophecy that is vague and ambiguous, it's not worth bothering with it because you can never be sure if the interpretation you have is the one the author intended.

And if the prophecy could have been written AFTER the event that fulfilled it and simply inserted into an earlier work, then it's not worth bothering with it because it means nothing, it was just some guy who wrote what happened and tried to make it look like a prophecy when it really wasn't.

And if the prophecy was only fulfilled because someone came along after the prophecy was written and then decided to perform the action that fulfilled it, then it's not worth bothering with the prophecy because the author didn't actually have any knowledge of the future, and thus it isn't a prophecy.

And if the prophecy was only fulfilled because someone embellished the event that allegedly fulfilled it to make it look like the prophecy was correct, but the actual event didn't happen as described and so didn't fulfill the prophecy, then again, it's not worth bothering with it because the claim it was fulfilled is wrong.

Each of those things is enough to invalidate any prophecy. That is why I have those criteria, to make sure that we check for the things which would invalidate it. Only by meeting the criteria can we conclude that the prophecy is not invalidated by being vague and ambiguous, written after the fact, fulfilled by someone because they had read the prophecy and decided to fulfill it, or embellished.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, you have anecdote. Anything for which you have actual evidence for I am not disputing. Did Baha'u'llah actually exist? Sure, why not. I'm not disputing that, am I?

But was he really a messenger from God?

I'm not even disputing the fact that he claimed to be a messenger from God, nor the fact that he believed to be a messenger from God.

But I am disputing the claim that he actually was a messenger from God. You don't have any evidence to support that claim. All you have are the fact that he claimed to be so, and a person claiming to be something isn't sufficient to prove they actually are what they claim to be.

A claim to be a Messenger of God is not evidence of any kind and I never said it was. How do you know that all I have is the fact that he claimed to be a Messenger? Why would I believe a man who made such a bold claim unless there was evidence to back up the claim?

I will take it as a fact that you hold those beliefs, just the same way that it is a fact that I am an atheist, it is a fact that I am a Star Trek fan, and that it's a fact that I prefer Android over Apple. Now, technically it is possible that it's NOT a fact that you hold that belief, but I can't see why you would do that.

But remember, you holding a religious belief is not enough to prove that the religious belief in question is the correct one.

Of course not and I never said it was.

The criteria are not designed to find the guy who fulfilled the prophecy. They are designed to determine if the prophecy is something we should even bother with in the first place.

Fair enough.

I mean, if you have a prophecy that is vague and ambiguous, it's not worth bothering with it because you can never be sure if the interpretation you have is the one the author intended.

No, you cannot be sure if the interpretation is correct if it is vague and ambiguous so such a prophecy would not be useful by itself, but as I said before if we look at such a prophecy together with other prophecies that are saying something similar it can be useful.

And if the prophecy could have been written AFTER the event that fulfilled it and simply inserted into an earlier work, then it's not worth bothering with it because it means nothing, it was just some guy who wrote what happened and tried to make it look like a prophecy when it really wasn't.

No such prophecy would be worth bothering with but that does not apply to any Bible prophecies that predicted the return of Christ/coming of the Messiah since we know that were written thousands of years ago long before anyone came making any such claims.

And if the prophecy was only fulfilled because someone came along after the prophecy was written and then decided to perform the action that fulfilled it, then it's not worth bothering with the prophecy because the author didn't actually have any knowledge of the future, and thus it isn't a prophecy.

Obviously of someone came along and deliberately did something to fulfill the prophecy to make it look like he was the one the prophecy was about, he would be a false prophet, a fraud. But the author did have knowledge of the future so it is still a valid prophecy.

And if the prophecy was only fulfilled because someone embellished the event that allegedly fulfilled it to make it look like the prophecy was correct, but the actual event didn't happen as described and so didn't fulfill the prophecy, then again, it's not worth bothering with it because the claim it was fulfilled is wrong.

The prophecy would still be correct as written but if a person embellished the event to make it appear as if the prophecy had been fulfilled he would be a false prophet, a fraud.

Each of those things is enough to invalidate any prophecy. That is why I have those criteria, to make sure that we check for the things which would invalidate it. Only by meeting the criteria can we conclude that the prophecy is not invalidated by being vague and ambiguous, written after the fact, fulfilled by someone because they had read the prophecy and decided to fulfill it, or embellished.

Invalidate is the wrong word because the prophecy remains a valid prophecy since it was written by a prophet. What you are really saying is that (a) certain conditions must be met in order for a prophecy to be useful, and (b) certain conditions must be met before we can determine if a prophecy has truly been fulfilled by an alleged claimant.

 

[Tiberius]

A claim to be a Messenger of God is not evidence of any kind and I never said it was. How do you know that all I have is the fact that he claimed to be a Messenger? Why would I believe a man who made such a bold claim unless there was evidence to back up the claim?

The evidence you have provided is the alleged prophecies, and since you have not shown that they pass the criteria I provided, I do not see why anyone should believe them.

Of course not and I never said it was.

Yet you have claimed you know simply because you have a religious belief of that.

No, you cannot be sure if the interpretation is correct if it is vague and ambiguous so such a prophecy would not be useful by itself, but as I said before if we look at such a prophecy together with other prophecies that are saying something similar it can be useful.

I'd say that's still irrelevant, because if the wording of the prophecy is vague, then you can't be sure if it actually is saying something similar.

No such prophecy would be worth bothering with but that does not apply to any Bible prophecies that predicted the return of Christ/coming of the Messiah since we know that were written thousands of years ago long before anyone came making any such claims.

Even if they were written before, they still need to pass the other criteria.

Obviously of someone came along and deliberately did something to fulfill the prophecy to make it look like he was the one the prophecy was about, he would be a false prophet, a fraud. But the author did have knowledge of the future so it is still a valid prophecy.

No.

If Person X writes a prophecy, and then 500 years later Person Y came along and decided, "Hey, this prophecy is pretty cool, I'm going to do what it says so I can be the one to fulfill it," it does NOT mean that Person X who wrote the prophecy had any knowledge about the future at all.

The prophecy would still be correct as written but if a person embellished the event to make it appear as if the prophecy had been fulfilled he would be a false prophet, a fraud.

How do you figure that the prophecy would still be correct?

Invalidate is the wrong word because the prophecy remains a valid prophecy since it was written by a prophet. What you are really saying is that (a) certain conditions must be met in order for a prophecy to be useful, and (b) certain conditions must be met before we can determine if a prophecy has truly been fulfilled by an alleged claimant.

No. Any idiot can write a prophecy. That does not make them a prophet. It is only once the prophecy has been fulfilled in a way that meets the criteria that we should sit up and say, "Hey, maybe this person did somehow have knowledge of the future."

BTW, I'm going to make a slight alteration to the criteria. The updated criteria are:

• The prophecy must not be about something that is likely to happen anyway.

• Where we have verified that the prophecy was written prior to the event that fulfilled it.

• Where we have verified that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.

• The the fulfilling event was not done by someone simply to make the prophecy come true.

• The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation.

The criteria I removed was that we need several prophecies about the same thing. I don't think that's really required. After all, if, back in the 1950s, someone made a prophecy about how a rocketship named Challenger was going to explode in late January 1986 only 73 seconds after launch and 7 people were going to die, then that one prophecy would still be enough to make me sit up and take notice. I included that criteria as you mentioned how we need all the prophecies pointing to one person (or fulfilling event, if we want to make it a more general statement) in post 264. I'm perfectly happy to say that even if there is only a single prophecy, if it passes the criteria, I'll accept it.

I'm replacing it with the criteria, "The prophecy must not be about something that is likely to happen anyway." I would hope the reason for this is obvious; if someone makes the prophecy that England will have a leader in the year 2300, it doesn't count because it's extremely likely that England will indeed have a leader at that point.

 

[Trailblazer]

The evidence you have provided is the alleged prophecies, and since you have not shown that they pass the criteria I provided, I do not see why anyone should believe them.

I told you many posts ago that the prophecies that were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah are not the best evidence and they are not the evidence that Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at. In fact, He never told us to look at the prophecies, that is just something I did because Iwas posting to Christians.

Some time ago when asked for evidence I posted the claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah on this thread:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

I also told you that they all pass your criteria although no prophecy can pass #5 because all prophecies no matter how specific they are can be interpreted in more than one way.

Yet you have claimed you know simply because you have a religious belief of that.

I never claimed that is why I know. I know because if the evidence (see above).

I'd say that's still irrelevant, because if the wording of the prophecy is vague, then you can't be sure if it actually is saying something similar.

Yes, that is true in some cases.

Even if they were written before, they still need to pass the other criteria.

They do pass all your criteria except #5 The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation. I contest that being on your list because there is no prophecy that is not open to different interpretations no matter how specific it is. This prophecy I cited before is very specific:

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

While there is only one correct interpretation, people do not all interpret it the same way. For example, someone could not figure out who he referred to so that person changed he to they!

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

(12) In that day also he shall come.—Rather translate, In that day shall they (impersonal) come even to thee from Assyria and (from) the cities of Matzor (i.e., Egypt), and from Matzor even to the river (Euphrates), and from sea to sea, and (from) mountain to mountain. The prophet beholds people coming from all parts of the earth to Jerusalem. Isaiah foresaw the like future, and spoke of Assyria, Egypt, and Israel being assembled together, “whom the Lord of Hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt, my people, and Assyria, the work of my hands, and Israel, mine inheritance” (Isaiah 19:25). The Christian reader can hardly refrain from discerning on the horizon of Micah’s vision that marvellous assembly of the representatives of the nations in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost.

It says he, not they. It is referring to the Messiah who was Baha’u’llah and who travelled to all those places, not of his own free will but because he was banished and exiled for 40 years.

If Person X writes a prophecy, and then 500 years later Person Y came along and decided, "Hey, this prophecy is pretty cool, I'm going to do what it says so I can be the one to fulfill it," it does NOT mean that Person X who wrote the prophecy had any knowledge about the future at all.

Prophecy

· the foretelling or prediction of what is to come.

· something that is declared by a prophet, especially a divinely inspired prediction, instruction, or exhortation.

· a divinely inspired utterance or revelation: oracular prophecies.

· the action, function, or faculty of a prophet.

Definition of prophecy | Dictionary.com

A prophecy is a prediction of what is to come so the prophet who wrote the prophecy had to have some knowledge of what was going to happen in the future in order to write the prophecy. What the prophet knew in the past has nothing to do with the man who read the Bible and later decided to do what the prophecy says.

How do you figure that the prophecy would still be correct?

You said: And if the prophecy was only fulfilled because someone embellished the event that allegedly fulfilled it to make it look like the prophecy was correct, but the actual event didn't happen as described and so didn't fulfill the prophecy, then again, it's not worth bothering with it because the claim it was fulfilled is wrong.

The prophecy would still be correct as written, but if a man embellished the event that the prophecy was referring to in order to make it appear as if it had been fulfilled, then the actual event didn't happen as described and so didn't fulfill the prophecy. In that case, it would not be not worth bothering with the man who claimed to have fulfilled the prophecy because he would have been a phony because his claim that it was fulfilled is wrong. However, the prophecy is still right and another man might come along and fulfill it by doing what was written in the prophecy, not deliberately, but because that is what he was destined by God to do.

No. Any idiot can write a prophecy. That does not make them a prophet. It is only once the prophecy has been fulfilled in a way that meets the criteria that we should sit up and say, "Hey, maybe this person did somehow have knowledge of the future."

Apparently we are talking at cross purposes because I am assuming a divinely inspired scripture that truly predicts the future Second Coming of Christ/Messiah and you are talking about anyone who could have been an idiot, who might have had knowledge of the future. The problem with your proposition is that if it was not a divinely inspired prophet who predicted the Second Coming of Christ/Messiah, whatever was predicted would have been of no importance, so who cares if this person did somehow have knowledge of the future? Do you understand what I am saying?

BTW, I'm going to make a slight alteration to the criteria. The updated criteria are:

· The prophecy must not be about something that is likely to happen anyway.

· Where we have verified that the prophecy was written prior to the event that fulfilled it.

· Where we have verified that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.

· The fulfilling event was not done by someone simply to make the prophecy come true.

· The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation.

The criteria I removed was that we need several prophecies about the same thing. I don't think that's really required. After all, if, back in the 1950s, someone made a prophecy about how a rocketship named Challenger was going to explode in late January 1986 only 73 seconds after launch and 7 people were going to die, then that one prophecy would still be enough to make me sit up and take notice.

I am glad you removed that criterion because I did not really understand what you were getting at. From my perspective, the need for several prophecies about the same thing would mean that there would need to be several prophecies that refer to one event that will take place when Christ returns, and there are several prophecies about the same events in the Bible. However there is not always more than one prophecy about the same event and that is not a requirement in order for a prophecy pertaining to an event to be valid.

I included that criteria as you mentioned how we need all the prophecies pointing to one person (or fulfilling event, if we want to make it a more general statement) in post 264. I'm perfectly happy to say that even if there is only a single prophecy, if it passes the criteria, I'll accept it.

Are you saying that if there is only one prophecy pointing to one person (e.g. Micah 7:12), if the fulfillment of that prophecy passes all your criteria you would be willing to believe that the person who fulfilled the prophecy was the man that the prophecy was referring to?

I'm replacing it with the criteria, "The prophecy must not be about something that is likely to happen anyway." I would hope the reason for this is obvious; if someone makes the prophecy that England will have a leader in the year 2300, it doesn't count because it's extremely likely that England will indeed have a leader at that point.

I have a bit of a problem with this criterion because I have been thinking about something completely different from what you are thinking about. I am thinking about the Second Coming of Christ/coming of the Messiah which is supposed to happen eventually as predicted (prophesied) in the Old Testament.

But this criterion can be used to apply to a prediction that is not likely to occur if we are not talking about the Second Coming of Christ/coming of the Messiah but rather talking about prophecies in general. For example, Baha’u’llah made many predictions that were not likely to happen anyway, as whether they happened or not was contingent upon whether the kings and rulers recognized Him as the return of Christ. These prophecies would meet all of your criteria. If you want an example I can provide it in the next post.