Florida GOP want to check out teenage genitals.

[SkepticThinker]

To give me any so called scientific information that a Man can become a woman, will not change the fact that a man can never become a woman.
Furthermore, I dont know your circumstances on why you never had children, and I am sorry that you could not.
However, even such an argument does not validate a claim that a Man can become a Woman.

And yes, You are a woman in my eyes, for you were born a woman, not a Man that thought he could change into one.

I didn't give you "scientific information that a Man can become a woman." What I gave you were examples of trans people who had become pregnant and given birth, the very thing you are trying to say that they can't do therefore aren't real women (or whatever). Your criteria seems surround to the ability to birth children, for some reason.

You're just repeating yourself now.
Please try to take in some new information, and then get back to me once you've processed it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Kind of like Dr. Seuss' books being "banned" or Mr. Potato being changed or whatever. They're nonsense distractions.

Dr Suess books were not banned. That is RW partisan drivel. The publisher voluntarily pulled a few titles that did actually feature some pretty crude representation of Africans, Asians, and tribal peoples.
Mr Potato Head is still Mr Potato Head. The box is the only thing that's changed, saying just Potato Head, something I've heard people say for many years. So that's not so much of a change as it is going along with what people have been doing anyways.

Oh right, the very same God who supposedly created everything, including trans people. I've never understood this point of view. I mean, did this God create gay people and trans people just so that they could be made to feel like crap by this God's followers? If so, that's not any kind of cruel God I want to follow.

They would say things like homosexuality and gender dysphoria are not from god but the result of sin corrupting the very nature of the world and the influence of Satan pulling people away from what god naturally intended and wants for us.
Often they'll say "god doesn't make mistakes" and interpret transitioning as saying god made a mistake.
And, of course the Bible says in the OT and NT men who sleep with men are to be executed, and a man shall not wear that which pertains unto a woman. God made them male and female, and they dig their feet in over it, rarely even acknowledging intersexed conditions that blur the lines.

Oh, I know the type. They're the same type that you'd find twenty years ago saying brilliant things like, "I don't mind gay people as long as they're not hitting on me" or some other such thing that he thinks makes him sound like less of a douche, when it actually does the opposite.

Definitely. Or the ones who insist they should not have to see a gay couple but saying nothing about a straight couple's PDAs. And it make it so obvious that tracing paper is thicker than the skin of their very insecure sexuality.

I don't get the bathroom thing at all. Never in my entire 41 years on this planet have I ever seen anyone's genitals in any bathroom anywhere, nor did I care to ask. I do my business in the bathroom, like everyone else. Then I leave and get on with my life. I've never even been in the position of wondering what someone else's gender is in any bathroom anywhere.

Me neither. It's weird. They don't mind the mindless, wanton, toxic consumerism that has taken over the holiday that celebrates the birth of their savior. And it's rather blasphemous to celebrate the birthday of a man vehemently opposed to material wealth by focusing on material gains and wealth.
But the bathroom? The place where just about everybody goes in to do their business and leave, the place where generally strangers don't approach for conversation and people are left alone, but the kick and scream and make an unsightly mess and ungodly embarrassment of themselves.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

WOW!
These bad, bad straight people who hate so much, and their preachers who hate even more.
And the LGBQWERTY community who are so victimised and unfairly treated.

Oh, and who should they be to decide that a Trans Woman should not compete against cic woman?
Those silly conservatives!
Dont they know that Trans Women are real woman?
No one has the right to determine our sex, no matter what.
It is our human rights that are violated if such laws determine we shall not be allowed to compete against cic woman!
Who the heck gives them the right to stop us from infringing the weak cic woman athletes?

These Conservatives should change their education to the new science that proves a Man can be a woman.
They learned their science from white supremists!

You silly white straight old men, what do you know?

All I see are many words that say nothing. Come back with something mature, coherent, and worthy of adult discussion.

 

[ecco]

Now what you are doing is to take some human syndrome, which is not representative of a fraction of a percent, and apply it to a male or female with no such a syndrome!

My point was to try to show you that the world is not black and white. There are many shades between black and white. There are many shades between male and female.

But it didn't work. You, like many Christians, just see everything in a binary format. Good vs Evil. God vs Satan.

The world is not as simplistic as you imagine it to be.

 

[ecco]

OK, so lets see if you agree with your own slap you dished out on me.
Talking biology!
Can a man get pregnant by a woman, and will he give birth to a human 9 months later?

Nope. So what? Is a black spot white? Nope. So what?

As I previously posted, you will continue to live in your imagined overly simplistic world. I'm sure that's much easier than having to realize that humans and nature are very complex.

It is very easy to understand basic sex and gender scientific facts.

Yes. Until one realizes there are hidden complexities, Then it becomes difficult. Many people choose to ignore difficult concepts.

GodDidIt is so much easier than Evolution.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I didn't give you "scientific information that a Man can become a woman." What I gave you were examples of trans people who had become pregnant and given birth, the very thing you are trying to say that they can't do therefore aren't real women (or whatever). Your criteria seems surround to the ability to birth children, for some reason.

You're just repeating yourself now.
Please try to take in some new information, and then get back to me once you've processed it.

Those are FTMs (trans men) giving birth, not MTFs (trans women).

As a bit of trivia, they tried implanting uteruses and such in transsexual women in the 1930s or so, but they all died from it, unfortunately.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Those are FTMs (trans men) giving birth, not MTFs (trans women).

Yes, thanks for the clarification. I want to be as accurate as possible.
Just trying to point out how silly that "argument" is (on many levels).

As a bit of trivia, they tried implanting uteruses and such in transsexual women in the 1930s or so, but they all died from it, unfortunately.

Oh wow, I did not know that. How terrible!

 

[SkepticThinker]

Dr Suess books were not banned. That is RW partisan drivel. The publisher voluntarily pulled a few titles that did actually feature some pretty crude representation of Africans, Asians, and tribal peoples.

Mr Potato Head is still Mr Potato Head. The box is the only thing that's changed, saying just Potato Head, something I've heard people say for many years. So that's not so much of a change as it is going along with what people have been doing anyways.

Yes, exactly! And yet we had people like Kevin McCarthy reading Green Eggs and Ham as though it's being banned, when in fact, none of the books have been banned, at all. And nobody is going to show up to your house to confiscate your copy of the The Cat's Quizzer and burn it or anything, but that's how they make it seem. I think they just harp on these silly "issues" because they have no real ideas, no real policies, nothing except stirring up the pot and distract with these fake controversies. Meanwhile, actual issues that need addressing go ignored.

I don't even know what to say about Mr. Potato Head, that one just baffles me. It's a plastic potato with holes in it that you stick body parts into and make a character out of.

They would say things like homosexuality and gender dysphoria are not from god but the result of sin corrupting the very nature of the world and the influence of Satan pulling people away from what god naturally intended and wants for us.
Often they'll say "god doesn't make mistakes" and interpret transitioning as saying god made a mistake.
And, of course the Bible says in the OT and NT men who sleep with men are to be executed, and a man shall not wear that which pertains unto a woman. God made them male and female, and they dig their feet in over it, rarely even acknowledging intersexed conditions that blur the lines.

It's just another form of victim blaming.
It's funny how people always manage to pick out the parts of the Bible that agree with what they already believe, while ignoring some other parts that don't.

Definitely. Or the ones who insist they should not have to see a gay couple but saying nothing about a straight couple's PDAs. And it make it so obvious that tracing paper is thicker than the skin of their very insecure sexuality.

Oh yeah, the "I just don't want it pushed down my throat" crowd.

Me neither. It's weird. They don't mind the mindless, wanton, toxic consumerism that has taken over the holiday that celebrates the birth of their savior. And it's rather blasphemous to celebrate the birthday of a man vehemently opposed to material wealth by focusing on material gains and wealth.

Isn't that funny?

But the bathroom? The place where just about everybody goes in to do their business and leave, the place where generally strangers don't approach for conversation and people are left alone, but the kick and scream and make an unsightly mess and ungodly embarrassment of themselves.

It's just another manufactured controversy to get people riled up and to distract from the fact that they have no real policies or ideas to actually help anyone.
I mean, can you think of a bigger non-issue than this?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, exactly! And yet we had people like Kevin McCarthy reading Green Eggs and Ham as though it's being banned

And those bozos in general don't even read from, show, point to, or state by title what has been pulled. It's always books we'll still be able to get. But will fans of the TV dinner bozo remember what books he said were "banned?" Nope. Just the fantasy and myth that some Dr Seuss books were banned.

I don't even know what to say about Mr. Potato Head, that one just baffles me. It's a plastic potato with holes in it that you stick body parts into and make a character out of.

It keeps people distracted from the banks, corporations, and wall street taking more of their money. Puts the dumbest issues possible front stage to keep our minds off toxic dumping, sweat shops, and environmental genocide.

It's funny how people always manage to pick out the parts of the Bible that agree with what they already believe, while ignoring some other parts that don't.

Don't underestimate the mental gymnastics. Often they aren't ignoring it but rather twisting it around. Like how they do not ignore all the violence, but rather excuse it as god's "righteous judgements." Or "god's perfect wisdom we cannot comprehend."

I mean, can you think of a bigger non-issue than this?

Biden standing at the White House door.
Biden continuing to wear a mask outdoors.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, thanks for the clarification. I want to be as accurate as possible.
Just trying to point out how silly that "argument" is (on many levels).


Oh wow, I did not know that. How terrible!

Yeah, unfortunately the trans pregnancy stuff doesn't help your case here because it's people with natural female organs putting them to use. To be honest, many trans men find the "pregnant FTM" thing to be disturbing and embarrassing to the community. It's rather hard to be taken seriously as a normal man when you're having sex like a woman, getting knocked up, giving birth and breastfeeding. There's arguments about it.

Uterus transplantation - Wikipedia

 

[SA Huguenot]

I didn't give you "scientific information that a Man can become a woman." What I gave you were examples of trans people who had become pregnant and given birth, the very thing you are trying to say that they can't do therefore aren't real women (or whatever). Your criteria seems surround to the ability to birth children, for some reason.

You're just repeating yourself now.
Please try to take in some new information, and then get back to me once you've processed it.

I was quite busy, and could only go through your links today.
Well, it does not have any indication, not a single bit of evidence that a Transgender Man can conceive a child with a Transgender Woman.

What I did find was that a Transgender Male, reverted back to a true woman, and were able to become pregnant, which only strengthens my biological facts I relied upon when I posted on this forum.

I will be glad to see if there was ever a Trans woman who conceived, and gave birth.
Greetings

 

[SkepticThinker]

I was quite busy, and could only go through your links today.
Well, it does not have any indication, not a single bit of evidence that a Transgender Man can conceive a child with a Transgender Woman.

Oops, you just moved the goal posts and changed your criteria.
I guess that's all you're left with when you have such a terrible argument.

What I did find was that a Transgender Male, reverted back to a true woman, and were able to become pregnant, which only strengthens my biological facts I relied upon when I posted on this forum.

I guess I have to ask again ... who cares if a person can reproduce? What on earth does that have to do with anything at all? Is a woman's entire worth wrapped up in her ability to reproduce? If that's the case, you're dismissing an awful lot of women as unwomen or whatever it is you're trying to point out.

I will be glad to see if there was ever a Trans woman who conceived, and gave birth.
Greetings

I'm sure you'll be the first to know.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yeah, unfortunately the trans pregnancy stuff doesn't help your case here because it's people with natural female organs putting them to use. To be honest, many trans men find the "pregnant FTM" thing to be disturbing and embarrassing to the community. It's rather hard to be taken seriously as a normal man when you're having sex like a woman, getting knocked up, giving birth and breastfeeding. There's arguments about it.

I don't see much of a problem with that.
I'm cool with people doing whatever it is that they want, and anything they think is best for them in their own life. I don't really think it's my business.

Uterus transplantation - Wikipedia

Very interesting. It looks like they've made a lot of progress on this over the last few years.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Oops, you just moved the goal posts and changed your criteria.
I guess that's all you're left with when you have such a terrible argument.


I guess I have to ask again ... who cares if a person can reproduce? What on earth does that have to do with anything at all? Is a woman's entire worth wrapped up in her ability to reproduce? If that's the case, you're dismissing an awful lot of women as unwomen or whatever it is you're trying to point out.


I'm sure you'll be the first to know.

I never changed any tune.
Why twist my statement.
Go back and see what I said, and for convenience I will repeat my scientific observed fact.
A Trans man can never conceive a child at a trans woman.
What you did now is an attempt to tell me I am somehow wrong, because there are trans Men who eventually reversed trans, and became pregnant.
Well, again, this information actually strengthened my point that a Trans woman, CAN NEVER CONCEIVE!
How anyone can debate the above facts in a way as was produced by you is beyond my understanding.

 

[fantome profane]

Trans woman, CAN NEVER CONCEIVE!

If they could, hypothetically, would that really make any difference to you? Is this really the reason for your attitude, or is it just a rationalization?

 

[SA Huguenot]

I don't see much of a problem with that.
I'm cool with people doing whatever it is that they want, and anything they think is best for them in their own life. I don't really think it's my business.


Very interesting. It looks like they've made a lot of progress on this over the last few years.

I also do not have a problem with any Trans XYZ,
I have a problem if a Trans Woman tell me they are real women, for such is an impossible claim...
Then goes out and competes agains true women.
Or I have a problem with some woman who could not get children, for some reason, telling me I am bad because she thinks "I said she is not a woman". (which is obviously not what I said in the first instance)
...and Just as a trans man tries to tell me they are a man, for it is equally impossible.

And any person attempting to deny the scientific fact that the female gender, or sex, determines if she can give birth to a human, and the male gender or sex, can deliver sperm to the female sex, or gender, to achieve this pregnancy, is frankly denying science!

The real fact about Trans people are as follow.
You are a Man, who would like to pretend to be a woman, for some or other reason, or you are a woman, who would like to pretend to be a Man, for whatever reason.

You can NEVER change your sex, or your gender.
Any attempt to give long winded, and twisted discussions on why and how, simply stops at:
What is the Male and female gender's and sex' function.
Boy making girl pregnant, and Girl making baby.

Life is so simple, science is true, Biology works,
all the other reasonings is dismissable theories not worth the efford discussing it further.
So, untill you find a pregnant Trans Woman, who was made pregnant by a Trans Male....
The discussion is closed.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

And any person attempting to deny the scientific fact that the female gender, or sex, determines if she can give birth to a human, and the male gender or sex, can deliver sperm to the female sex, or gender, to achieve this pregnancy, is frankly denying science!

Actually, you are factually wrong here. Gender refers to gendered social expression and/or identity, not biological sex, so it is perfectly scientifically possible for somebody whose gender is female to have a penis, and someone whose gender is male to have a functioning uterus. The difference between sex and gender has been established science for many years, and the scientific consensus is that biological sex has little - if anything - to do with gender.

The real fact about Trans people are as follow.
You are a Man, who would like to pretend to be a woman, for some or other reason, or you are a woman, who would like to pretend to be a Man, for whatever reason.

You can NEVER change your sex, or your gender.

Yes and no.

Sex is biological. But gender is a fluid social construct.

Again, this not just rambling. This is firmly established science.

Any attempt to give long winded, and twisted discussions on why and how, simply stops at:
What is the Male and female gender's and sex' function.
Boy making girl pregnant, and Girl making baby.

Except this is about gender, not sex.

Also, intersex people exist.

Also, infertile people exist.

Life is so simple, science is true, Biology works,
all the other reasonings is dismissable theories not worth the efford discussing it further.

It must be very gratifying to live in a world that's so childishly simple.

Fortunately, the majority of the world is compised of adults, who are willing to accept that there is far more complexity to life, and just wishing that fact away does not make it go away.

So, untill you find a pregnant Trans Woman, who was made pregnant by a Trans Male....
The discussion is closed.

You're not a judge of the discussion, since you clearly lack even the basic knowledge required to be a meaningul part of the discussion. What's more, science overwhelmingly disagrees with you. Your position is very explicitly anti-scientific.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Actually, you are factually wrong here. Gender refers to gendered social expression, not biological sex, so it is perfectly scientifically possible for somebody whose gender is female to have a penis, and someone whose gender is male to have a functioning uterus. The difference between sex and gender has been established science for many years, and the scientific consensus is that biological sex has little - if anything - to do with gender.


Yes and no.

Sex is biological. But gender is a fluid social construct.

Again, this not just rambling. This is firmly established science.


Except this is about gender, not sex.

Also, intersex people exist.

Also, infertile people exist.


It must be very gratifying to live in a world that's so childishly simple.

Fortunately, the majority of the world is compised of adults, who are willing to accept that there is far more complexity to life, and just wishing that fact away does not make it go away.


You're not a judge of the discussion, since you clearly lack even the basic knowledge required to be a meaningul part of the discussion. What's more, science overwhelmingly disagrees with you. Your position is very explicitly anti-scientific.

And as I said...
Any further discussion on this unscientific, non biological claims...
are futile.

It is as if I am expected to discuss a fairy tale with a todler, and to actually believe it is true. If I dont, I am perceived as a person incapable to have a "meaningful discussion" with.
Damned if I do, and Damned if I dont.
I refuse foolishly to lie to myself in such a regard.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

And as I said...
Any further discussion on this unscientific, non biological claims...
are futile.

There's nothing unscientific about it. Trans people exist, scientifically. You are the one denying science right now.

It is as if I am expected to discuss a fairy tale with a todler, and to actually believe it is true. If I dont, I am perceived as a person incapable to have a "meaningful discussion" with.
Damned if I do, and Damned if I dont.
I refuse foolishly to lie to myself in such a regard.

Why is it so hard for you to wrap your head around this? Go look up a dictionary. Gender has always been defined as a social construct that is distinct from sex. When we talk about transgender people, the clue is in the name. Trans-GENDER. Hence, we are talking about GENDER, not SEX.

This is not difficult to grasp. For further proof of this, and further indication that your argument is nonsensical, when you pass by a person on the street who is tall, muscular and wears a beard, do you think to yourself:
"That person is a man."
Or
"I cannot identify if that person is male or female unless I directly observe them either empregnating a woman or being impregnated and giving birth."?

You, along with any sane person, would do the former, despite that fact that you have no idea exactly what the contents of that person's pants are. By doing this, you are acknowledging that there are aspects to gender identity that are divorced from simple biology. You literally make this assessment on your head every single day.

This is really not that hard or complicated if you actually try to think about it. I would be happy to explain in more detail or answer any questions you have if it would help.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Boy making girl pregnant, and Girl making baby.

That's not going to happen for many, many cis people but you act like it's some requirement for trans people. You have a double standard here. Infertile cis people get a pass (including also cis people who don't want to reproduce and so are not fulfilling the purpose of their sex, as you seem to view it) but trans men aren't men because we can't get a woman pregnant? Dude, you're all over the place and make little sense. You've insulted and dehumanized so many groups of people. You are actually rubbing in our faces the fact that transsexuals cannot reproduce as we want to be able to, and that's just cruelty. We are well-aware of the current limitations of technology when it comes to transitioning. Did you ever have the capacity for compassion or did you lose it at some point in your life?