Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

[Trailblazer]

If you find the Trinity to be ‘logical’, then you, and Bahá’u’lláh, lack understanding. The Trinity is above and beyond logic. Supra-rational.

This is NOT about my Baha'i beliefs. As you well know and as I just posted, not ALL Christians believe in the Trinity doctrine....
The Christians who are rational don't believe in it.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit work together to reveal God, they are not PART of God.

 

[Subduction Zone]

This is NOT about my Baha'i beliefs. As you well know and as I just posted, not ALL Christians believe in the Trinity doctrine....
The Christians who are rational don't believe in it.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit work together to reveal God, they are not PART of God.

Quite often it appears that she is just trolling. Look at how quick she is to post false claims about others and yet when a post is well supported and offered to be supported by Christian sources along with the offer of giving scholastic sources she has no response, my post earlier today for example:

Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

That shows how at least some of the verses that support the Trinity were known to be manufactured after the fact.

 

[Trailblazer]

Quite often it appears that she is just trolling. Look at how quick she is to post false claims about others and yet when a post is well supported and offered to be supported by Christian sources along with the offer of giving scholastic sources she has no response, my post earlier today for example:

Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

That shows how at least some of the verses that support the Trinity were known to be manufactured after the fact.

With my background and training in psychology, it is my concerted opinion that she is not a troll, but rather she really believes what she is posting; but like most Christians, she does not want to look at the evidence from her own Bible that contradicts her beliefs.

As with many Christians, she has no response to ANY evidence that proves she is wrong, because she cannot prove that evidence is wrong in an honest debate. How could she, when all she has is the Bible and her own Bible proves she is wrong?

 

[Trailblazer]

It is and it isn't. And it does not help the case of Trinitarians that what is perhaps the clearest verse (or rather verses) that support the Trinity were added to the Bible. Specifically 1 John 7-8. Here is an article from a Christian group, not a Trinitarian group, but if you like I can find the scholarly sources that support this as well. I merely like to use sources that are not atheistic when making Christian claims:

A Spurious Reference to the Trinity Added in 1 John 5 verses 7-8

Thanks, that's a keeper, and I just saved it in a Word doc to add to my collection.
The conclusion at the end is very telling, for anyone who thinks logically:

"Again, the word Trinity did not come into common use as a religious term until after the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325, several centuries after the last books of the New Testament were complete. It is not a biblical concept."

 

[samtonga43]

Demand ask I don't care.

Of course you don’t. Therein lies your problem. You should try that "Don't care" line in a real debate - see where it gets you.

And you are back to making unsupported and false claims. Just because you apparently do not understand how you demonstrate all of the traits of a threatened person does not mean that others cannot see this. Once again for your benefit. A threatened person refuses to enter into a polite debate. They tend to use your tactics. Your actions say that you are terribly threatened even if you believe that you are not.

Can you recommend a polite debate, SZ? BTW, you still have not answered my question about what YOU consider to be ‘polite’. What are some of the components of what you keep calling a polite debate?
You’re not running away again, I hope? I would hate to think that you felt threatened by my questions.

All you need to do is to attempt to enter in to a polite conversation. Yet for some odd reason you avoid doing so. Instead all you have are false accusations that you cannot justify. That is running away to me.

False accusations, which you refuse to justify. As I said, you have no insight.

 

[samtonga43]

With my background and training in psychology, it is my concerted opinion that she is not a troll, but rather she really believes what she is posting; but like most Christians, she does not want to look at the evidence from her own Bible that contradicts her beliefs.

As with many Christians, she has no response to ANY evidence that proves she is wrong, because she cannot prove that evidence is wrong in an honest debate. How could she, when all she has is the Bible and her own Bible proves she is wrong?

If you have evidence which PROVES that I am wrong, SZ, please bring it on.

 

[samtonga43]

Thanks, that's a keeper, and I just saved it in a Word doc to add to my collection.
The conclusion at the end is very telling, for anyone who thinks logically:

"Again, the word Trinity did not come into common use as a religious term until after the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325, several centuries after the last books of the New Testament were complete. It is not a biblical concept."

LOL! It certainly is a Biblical concept. You do realize that a word is different from a concept, don't you?

 

[Trailblazer]

If you have evidence which PROVES that I am wrong, SZ, please bring it on.

I am not SZ, I an TB.
But I do have evidence which PROVES that you are wrong, it's in the Bible.

 

[Trailblazer]

LOL! It certainly is a Biblical concept. You do realize that a word is different from a concept, don't you?

It is not a biblical concept, it is a Christian concept. There is a HUGE difference between those two concepts.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Of course you don’t. Therein lies your problem. You should try that "Don't care" line in a real debate - see where it gets you.

Can you recommend a polite debate, SZ? BTW, you still have not answered my question about what YOU consider to be ‘polite’. What are some of the components of what you keep calling a polite debate?
You’re not running away again, I hope? I would hate to think that you felt threatened by my questions.

False accusations, which you refuse to justify. As I said, you have no insight.

LOL!! You are the one that is avoiding a proper debate.

You really are failing incredibly here. Why are you so afraid to debate or discuss properly?

I do believe that I have told you what was polite too. No false accusations is number one on your list. You demonstrated that you do not know how to apply logical fallacies. Time and time again. If you do not understand something ask questions.

Is that so hard?

 

[joelr]

Science thinks something can come from Nothing . But thankfully when they are not trying to come up with anything to do with origins they do some good stuff.

Where does science say that? Cosmologists do not know anything about the big bang before 10^-43 seconds or if there are multiverses or why the early universe was so dense and had such low entropy or if there exists other spacetime that the singularity came from. All unknown. With spacetime creation can happen given enough time and potentiality, that is well understood and part of physics. It isn't something from nothing.
On that note how are biblical creation models are anything special?

 

[samtonga43]

I am not SZ, I an TB.
But I do have evidence which PROVES that you are wrong, it's in the Bible.

Where?

 

[samtonga43]

It is not a biblical concept, it is a Christian concept. There is a HUGE difference between those two concepts.

What, in your opinion, IS the difference?

 

[samtonga43]

LOL!! You are the one that is avoiding a proper debate.

You would not recognize a 'proper debate' if you came across one, SZ.

You really are failing incredibly here.

That's not what I hear.

Why are you so afraid to debate or discuss properly?

I'm not. That is a false accusation. (and a false assumption)

I do believe that I have told you what was polite too. No false accusations is number one on your list.

Then don't accuse falsely, SZ. Simple.

You demonstrated that you do not know how to apply logical fallacies. Time and time again. If you do not understand something ask questions.

If you do not recognize the many logical fallacies in your own posts, SZ, you will naturally accuse others of not knowing how to apply logical fallacies.
(Now that IS logic!)

 

[Subduction Zone]

You would not recognize a 'proper debate' if you came across one, SZ.

That's not what I hear.

I'm not. That is a false accusation. (and a false assumption)

Then don't accuse falsely, SZ. Simple.

If you do not recognize the many logical fallacies in your own posts, SZ, you will naturally accuse others of not knowing how to apply logical fallacies.
(Now that IS logic!)

Another sign that one has lost is breaking up a post by every sentence when there is no reason to do so.

I think that she really has a crush on me. Sorry, but you are not my type. I value honesty too much.

 

[samtonga43]

Another sign that one has lost is breaking up a post by every sentence when there is no reason to do so.

Nonsense. But ……you may have evidence for this claim (It'll make a change). I’m sure we all look forward to seeing your evidence.

I think that she really has a crush on me. Sorry, but you are not my type. I value honesty too much.

A crush? Language like this indicates that you are much, much too old to attract me, SZ. Funny, because your posts up to now have reminded me of an immature 20-year-old trying to convince himself of his own importance.

 

[samtonga43]

This is NOT about my Baha'i beliefs. As you well know and as I just posted, not ALL Christians believe in the Trinity doctrine....
The Christians who are rational don't believe in it.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit work together to reveal God, they are not PART of God.

See, Tb, the very fact that you say "they are not PART of God" indicates that you have no idea what Christians mean by the Trinity concept. I, together with thousands upon thousands of other Christians agree with you.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not PART of God.

You are correct, Tb.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nonsense. But ……you may have evidence for this claim (It'll make a change). I’m sure we all look forward to seeing your evidence.

A crush? Language like this indicates that you are much, much too old to attract me, SZ. Funny, because your posts up to now have reminded me of an immature 20-year-old trying to convince himself of his own importance.

Oh please, I have posted evidence in the past. You ignored it. right now it looks as if you are just trolling.

Tell me, why didn't you respond when I posted about the added Bible verses to 1 John that supported the Trinity. I provided a Christian source and offered to provide scholarly ones. When you ignore posts with evidence you refute your own claims about others not posting evidence.

And your projection is truly amazing. Yep, too old for you. I never made any other claims. But you are acting just like a schoolgirl trying to get the attention of a boy that she fancies.

Meanwhile all you post here are claims. I cannot remember any evidence posted by you in our exchanges.

 

[Trailblazer]

Where?

I am not going to do your digging for you. It was explained in the article below which includes verses..

Which Christian denominations do not believe in the Trinity? Why not?

The Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, Iglesia Ni Cristo, Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Dawn Bible Students, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians, The Way International, The Church of God International, the United Church of God, and Armstrongism do not believe in trinitarinanism because they do not share history with the post-apostolic process that concocted the doctrine. Also, Unitarians believe that the Father is the sole deity and the Savior was not God.

Virtually all other Christian denominations believe in the 3-in-1 Trinity because of the influence from Roman Catholicism.

The seeds of trinitarian ideas were fabricated over the course of centuries following Jesus' death and came into vogue in the 4th century AD when Emperor Constantine, an unbaptized pagan, threw his weight behind it for political reasons. After decades of controversy and much bloodshed over the issue, the doctrine of trinitarianism was made official by the Council of Constantinople 381AD. By then, there were no 12 apostles living to contradict it. (I redacted “Athanasian Creed” from this paragraph in response to Francis Mardsden’s comment.)

Trinitarianism is not Biblical - just the opposite. Jesus said, The Father is greater than the Son. (John 14:28) That alone explodes the trinitarian myth. Also, all three godhead members were manifested separately at Christ’s baptism; Jesus in the river, the Father's voice from heaven, and the Spirit descending like a dove. (Matthew 3:16-17) On many occasions, Jesus prayed to His Father with words that prove they were two distinct individuals, Jesus conforming His will to the Father’s. The risen Lord told Mary He had yet to visit His Father. Jesus claimed not to know when the end would come and said only His Father knew. (Mark 13:32) Jesus said, The Son will judge but not the Father. (John 5:22) He said, blasphemy against Him and the Father was forgivable but not against the Holy Ghost. On the cross, He asked His Father why He had forsaken Him. (Mt. 27:46) “After the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.” (Mk. 16:19) As Stephen was being stoned, he looked into heaven and saw “Jesus standing on the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55) These are but a few examples of Jesus teaching and demonstrating that He was separate and distinct from His Father.

The references in the Bible declaring the Father and the Son to be “one” are explained by Christ Himself in His intercessory prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane where He asked His Father to help the disciples to become “one” even as He and the Father were one. The Bible says a husband and wife become “one flesh” but nobody suspects that marriage transforms a couple of humans into an incomprehensible binity. (Mark 10:8) Unity of mind and purpose is a common theme in life.

Only extremely twisted logic allows a person to believe in a Jesus who is also His own Father conceived by His own Holy Ghost self! Trinitarianism pollutes the true character of the godhead and contradicts the scripture that "God created man in his own image" as we are not triple-personality nor composite individuals. Trinitarianism hyper-mystifies God, unnecessarily distancing us from the Father of our spirits while depersonalizing our Savior by denying Him of His distinct individuality.

Even those who believe it have trouble explaining it, invoking obscure terminologies that the average person finds foreign and obfuscational. “God is three consubstantial persons or hypostases.” The Athanasian Creed repeats the same theme multiple times, as if verbosity stabilizes the nonsense. “We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God.” And so on and on and on.

The question should be rephrased, “Which Christian sects hold to trinitarianism and why?”

Which Christian denominations do not believe in the Trinity? Why not? - Quora

 

[Trailblazer]

What, in your opinion, IS the difference?

"It is not a biblical concept, it is a Christian concept. There is a HUGE difference between those two concepts."

The difference is that a biblical concept is derived from what is actually IN the Bible whereas a Christian concept is derived from Christian teachings about the Bible, what Christians have (often mistakenly) interpreted the Bible to mean.