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Are scientists any closer

We Never Know

No Slack
Now you are making the same error that you were making a couple of days ago. The evolution side is always willing to provide evidence. Your post indicates that you think that is not the case.

Always willing isn't always supporting.

So...
I don't care if someone's claims are about god or evolution. If they claim it, support it.
If they cant support it at least admit its unknown. There's nothing wrong with not knowing.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Always willing isn't always supporting.

So...
I don't care if someone's claims are about god or evolution. If they claim it, support it.
If they cant support it at least admit its unknown. There's nothing wrong with not knowing.
You forgot the lesson of the alphabet already. People were demanding "D" when it was explained why "D" likely did not exist. Nor was "D" necessary. That point went right over your head as I recall. You even dodged the question that demonstrated why "D" was not needed.

When people demand the wrong evidence they of course are not going to get it.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So said the donkey
You better get those eyes checked too:

62192.jpg
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't put faith in various and sundry religious concepts, but I do believe the Bible

Do you believe that man was made in God's image as the Bible reports? If so, you have a faith-based religious beliefs.

If you believe the Bible, you have a lot of unsupported beliefs, which is what I called faith-based thinking. It's very simple - if evidence supports your belief, then it is justified. If some or all of that belief is not based in evidence, then there is faith involved, sometimes just a little. I gave the example of supported or justified belief earlier, such as the belief that my car will turn over the next time I try to start it as it has the last 500+ times.

Some would say I have faith in that outcome, but they are using the word faith to mean justified belief, but I've told you that the ambiguity caused by doing that is why I don't use the word faith for justified belief. As long as my belief is commensurate with the quality and quantity of evidence upon which it is based, it is not a faith-based belief.

But take it a little further, and say not that the car will very likely start, but that it will start is a leap of faith, and not only is not supported by evidence, but is contradicted by it, since sometimes car batteries are dead.

Intelligence - the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.

That sounds more like learning, which requires intelligence, but is not the same thing. For me, the essence of intelligence is being able to recognize opportunities and avoid pitfalls by noticing and properly interpreting evidence, a definition that applies to many animals beside man. This is different from intellect, which is the ability to use symbols in thought, speech, and writing (math, language). It's also different from wisdom.

If intelligence is knowing how to get what you want and how to avoid what you would prefer to avoid when different choices produce different outcomes and one can control those outcomes, then wisdom is knowing what to want to achieve a state of happiness. Intelligent people might succeed in accomplishing their goals only to discover that those goals weren't worthy and didn't generate the expected happiness. Maybe you succeeded in marrying the wrong person, or successfully enter a career that you won't like. You achieved your short-term goal because you were intelligent enough to make it happen, but you didn't find happiness, meaning that those choices were not wise.

It's true some have their reasons for believing that common ancestry is certain... perhaps making inferences from DNA Sequencing, but then it's not based on fossils, since they acknowledge that they cannot be sure of any fossils that would confirm the common ancestor of primates, and they do have faith in the assumptions that go with their beliefs.

Nobody has a valid reason to believe that common ancestry is certain, but they are justified in considering it overwhelmingly likely for reasons discussed below.

You don't just want to believe whatever you feel to, do you?

No. And that's impossible. I can't make myself believe anything I find unbelievable.

I want to have only correct beliefs, or as few incorrect beliefs as possible. Incorrect beliefs can't help, but they might hurt. I know of only one way to do that, and it means avoiding faith-based belief. What better way to have a wrong belief than to believe it without supporting evidence?

So you are saying that only science has the answer for everything?

Only skepticism, reason, and evidence can tell us what is true about the world.

But notice that this occurs even when not doing formal science in a laboratory or observatory. We do the same thing that scientists are doing when we look both ways before crossing the street. We are skeptical enough to look before crossing and not just believe that it will safe even if we don't. We collect data - the disposition of vehicles in the area - and draw sound conclusions about when to proceed safely. We can call this informal science.

But yes, whether looking down the street or into a telescope, in both cases we using the same principles to decide what is true about the world and making decision that increase the likelihood of desired outcomes. Other methods just don't work.

It is true that, today, some researchers have a well-thought-through idea of what the LCA looked like and how it behaved. The trouble is that other researchers have equally well-reasoned models that suggest an LCA that looked and behaved in a completely different way. And that puts the research community in a bit of a quandary.

That's normal for science. Scientists try to assemble the list of possible explanations for an observation and construct tests that distinguish between them. There was once two competing hypotheses for the history of the universe, one that it was static and the other that it was expanding. Then the red shift data became known, and one hypothesis was discarded.

Actually, quite a bit is known about what the last common ancestor of Pan and Homo looked like. It would have been arboreal, an ape that brachiated and knuckle-walked, ate leaves and nuts, had about a third of modern man's cranial capacity, relatively longer arms and shorter legs than man, a snout, vegetarian dentition, shorter than man, hairy, and a robust chest, all of which still applies to Pan but not Homo sapiens. If Pan had such an ancestor, then man did as well.

How you think people don't know the difference between a theory and a scientific theory. Cracks me up.

Everybody who says, "It's only a theory" when referring to a scientific theory doesn't know the difference between an untested hypothesis and a scientific theory.

the theory of evolution is not a scientific fact.

The theory of evolution is so robustly evidenced, that it simply can't be overturned except if a certain incredible discovery were made: a deceptive intelligent designer arranged the fossil strata and various nested hierarchies in genetics, biochemistry, taxonomy, etc. to make it look like evolution had occurred naturalistically on earth over geologic time. It's analogous to finding so much evidence against a suspect that only two hypotheses are possible - he's as guilty as the evidence suggests, or he was framed. One cannot use that evidence to support any other conjecture.

Evolution has passed that point. It is now impossible to overturn it unless one finds evidence of this incredibly powerful trickster. One cannot explain the mountains of evidence from multiple scientific fields that presently support the theory any other way than that it is correct or we were "framed (deceived)."

You've probably heard that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence unless the evidence is expected: If A then B, not B, therefore not A. B is the expected evidence supporting A, it's absence ruling out A. If you went to work yesterday (A), your time card would be stamped and your coworkers would have seen you there (B). Even though you claim to have worked yesterday and want to be paid for it, you won't be. The absence of evidence that you seek is not of this kind. It's more like if A, then maybe B, not B, therefore nothing can be concluded about A. If evolution is correct, maybe we'll find and identify the last common of Pan and Homo, we haven't found this yet, therefore what? - nothing can be said about the validity of the theory based on the absence of evidence.

Which brings me to another point. Those arguing against evolution like to point to what is not known as if it were a critique of the theory, rather than focus on what is known, as is being done in this thread. If you saw @Shadow Wolf 's Simpsons video, we saw just that as missing links were added in the chain from nonhuman ape to human. Even as data was amassing - more and more fossils - all the creationist Orangutan focused on was the gaps and spaces. Looking at what has been found is where the story is, not the gaps.

So even if a falsifying finding is made that overturns the theory, the existing evidence doesn't go away. I just need to be re-interpeted in the light of that finding. As I suggested, unless you can think of another interpretation of that data apart from the theory is correct and we've been deceived, you have to choose one of those. Biblical creationism is already ruled out, unless you want the cast the god of the Bible in the role of trickster, which would mean that this impish deity didn't want us to know he created the kinds. Is that the god of the Bible?
 

We Never Know

No Slack
You forgot the lesson of the alphabet already. People were demanding "D" when it was explained why "D" likely did not exist. Nor was "D" necessary. That point went right over your head as I recall. You even dodged the question that demonstrated why "D" was not needed.

When people demand the wrong evidence they of course are not going to get it.

Over my head? Lol

Missing links aren't evidence of evolution not happening. Its simply we don't have all the answers yet. They are however holes that creationists exploit.

Which again if we don't know something there is nothing wrong with saying we don't know yet.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Over my head? Lol

Missing links aren't evidence of evolution not happening. Its simply we don't have all the answers yet. They are however holes that creationists exploit.

Which again if we don't know something there is nothing wrong with saying we don't know yet.
Yep, another Whooosh! Moment. Nice strawman argument added into the mix this time.

Once more the question that you ran away from multiple times:

If you do not have a picture of your Grandfather does that mean that he never existed?
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Yep, another Whooosh! Moment. Nice strawman argument added into the mix this time.

Once more the question that you ran away from multiple times:

If you do not have a picture of your Grandfather does that mean that he never existed?

:facepalm: Talk about whoosh.

Not having a picture of your grandfather doesn't mean he didn't exist.
Here's the point though... If someone asked you what your grandfather that you don't have a picture of looked like, you should reply I don't know.

Which again..

"Missing links aren't evidence of evolution not happening. Its simply we don't have all the answers yet. They are however holes that creationists exploit.

"Which again if we don't know something there is nothing wrong with saying we don't know yet."
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
:facepalm: Talk about whoosh.

Not having a picture of your grandfather doesn't mean he didn't exist.
Here's the point though... If someone asked you what your grandfather that you don't have a picture of looked like, you should reply I don't know.

Which again..

"Missing links aren't evidence of evolution not happening. Its simply we don't have all the answers yet. They are however holes that creationists exploit.

"Which again if we don't know something there is nothing wrong with saying we don't know yet."

Do you not read the posts? We have said that we do not know about certain missing links countless times. We have explained why they are not likely to be found and it is the creationists that try to claim that is evidence against evolution. They do not want to discuss the other evidence. They tend to grasp onto the concept that if a "missing link" is not found that evolution is false. HOw could you miss this? That you ignored the corrections of creationists and you even joined in on complaining about evidence indicates that you earned a "whoosh" again.

Here is a hint. If you want evidence don't listen to the creationist complaints. They are almost always false. Ask for the evidence yourself. People will gladly present it to you or explain why it does not exist if you ask politely.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Do you not read the posts? We have said that we do not know about certain missing links countless times. We have explained why they are not likely to be found and it is the creationists that try to claim that is evidence against evolution. They do not want to discuss the other evidence. They tend to grasp onto the concept that if a "missing link" is not found that evolution is false. HOw could you miss this? That you ignored the corrections of creationists and you even joined in on complaining about evidence indicates that you earned a "whoosh" again.

Here is a hint. If you want evidence don't listen to the creationist complaints. They are almost always false. Ask for the evidence yourself. People will gladly present it to you or explain why it does not exist if you ask politely.

I already covered this twice. Did you miss it?

Hopefully the third time is the charm.

""Missing links aren't evidence of evolution not happening. Its simply we don't have all the answers yet. They are however holes that creationists exploit."
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I already covered this twice. Did you miss it?

Hopefully the third time is the charm.

""Missing links aren't evidence of evolution not happening. Its simply we don't have all the answers yet. They are however holes that creationists exploit."
I know you did, but you were very very late to the party. That was not what you were saying the other day
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
What about Neanderthals? Would you agree a close relationship between them and humans?
I know scientists put forth a type of history and timeline, but I have questions about it. The DNA, for one. Perhaps we could start there.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
5th grade stance.

Still waiting for the bones of my great-great-great-great-great grandfather on my mother's side, lest creation be shown to be false.
yeah, well, given an exact lineage, uh, going back to some as of yet unknown common ancestor -- where is it? And while we're at it, maybe humans emerged (evolved) from -- bonobos? lol -- (who knows?)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I don’t totally believe in creationism nor evolution.
Now there ya go! :) Here's a problem I found, however, the term 'creationism' can be misleading, referring to the belief. For instance, there are those that take literally each day of creation to be 24 hours long. But the science itself testifies that would be contradictory to the real facts of geology.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
yeah, well, given an exact lineage, uh, going back to some as of yet unknown common ancestor -- where is it? And while we're at it, maybe humans emerged (evolved) from -- bonobos? lol -- (who knows?)
We don't have an "exact lineage".

Now why do you think that one is required?

And no, we did not evolve from either bonobos or chimps. We share a common ancestor with them. Sometimes it is a good idea to look at our own heritage. Let's say that you have a lot of German ancestry as shown by your DNA. Do we need to know who exactly your German ancestors were for that evidence to be reliable? Spoiler alert, the answer is "No."
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I know scientists put forth a type of history and timeline, but I have questions about it. The DNA, for one. Perhaps we could start there.
Perhaps we could keep it simple?
When do you think that Neanderthals dissappeared? How long ago?
And how long ago do you think the Ice Age ended?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Perhaps we could keep it simple?
When do you think that Neanderthals dissappeared? How long ago?
And how long ago do you think the Ice Age ended?
Scientists have said:
"Neanderthals are an extinct species of hominids that were the closest relatives to modern human beings. They lived throughout Europe and parts of Asia from about 400,000 until about 40,000 years ago, and they were adept at hunting large, Ice Age animals. There’s some evidence that Neanderthals interbred with modern humans—in fact, many humans today share a small portion of Neanderthal DNA. Theories about why Neanderthals went extinct abound, but their disappearance continues to puzzle scientists who study human evolution." That is from Neanderthals - HISTORY. So....whilst I haven't examined how or why these evolutionists say they existed from about 400,000 until maybe 40,000 years ago, the idea that the "interbred with modern humans" borders on the slightly insane. AND -- to be on track, the DNA is very important. So I'd like to discuss THAT for a moment or two.
 
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