Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

[samtonga43]

Everyone interprets the Bible differently because no two people think alike.
Christians interpret the Bible differently from each other and that is one reason there are so many different denominations of Christianity.
Baha'is also interpret the Bible differently from each other because Baha'is come from different backgrounds.

Tell me, Tb, how do you interpret Jesus’ words in (for example) Luke 14:26:

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple”...?.

Since Christians have some common beliefs they agree on the meanings of certain verses.
Since Baha'is have certain common beliefs we agree in the meanings of some verses.
Bahais would agree with Christians on the meanings of some verses but not others.
Since Christians have some common beliefs they believe certain verses mean what they already believe.
Since Baha'is have some common beliefs they believe certain verses mean what we already believe.

I can only say that I read (past tense) the Bible in order to argue against it. I believed that all Christians were at best misguided, and at worst extremely gullible… (did you know that the word ‘gullible’ has been removed from the dictionary?)
I did not ‘already believe’ anything at all other than it was all nonsense.

 

[Trailblazer]

Tell me, Tb, how do you interpret Jesus’ words in (for example) Luke 14:26:

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple”...?

I think that means that whoever would be a disciple of Jesus must consider God more than anything else or anyone else and would not consider their own life important at all. I agree with Jesus.

Baha’u’llah said something similar.

“By self-surrender and perpetual union with God is meant that men should merge their will wholly in the Will of God, and regard their desires as utter nothingness beside His Purpose. Whatsoever the Creator commandeth His creatures to observe, the same must they diligently, and with the utmost joy and eagerness, arise and fulfil. They should in no wise allow their fancy to obscure their judgment, neither should they regard their own imaginings as the voice of the Eternal..... In this consisteth the complete surrender of one’s will to the Will of God. Meditate on this, that thou mayest drink in the waters of everlasting life which flow through the words of the Lord of all mankind, and mayest testify that the one true God hath ever been immeasurably exalted above His creatures. He, verily, is the Incomparable, the Ever-Abiding, the Omniscient, the All-Wise. The station of absolute self-surrender transcendeth, and will ever remain exalted above, every other station.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 337-338

I can only say that I read (past tense) the Bible in order to argue against it. I believed that all Christians were at best misguided, and at worst extremely gullible… (did you know that the word ‘gullible’ has been removed from the dictionary?)
I did not ‘already believe’ anything at all other than it was all nonsense.

So what happened to change your mind?

And I did not already believe in anything when I became a Baha’i. I had no religion and no belief in God. That was over 50 years ago, but I never read one page of the Bible until about eight years ago when I started posting on forums.

 

[samtonga43]

I think that means that whoever would be a disciple of Jesus must consider God more than anything else or anyone else and would not consider their own life important at all. I agree with Jesus.

What do you think about the use of the word 'hate' in these verses? Does it not seem harsh to ask someone to hate their mother and father?

Baha’u’llah said something similar.
“By self-surrender and perpetual union with God is meant that men should merge their will wholly in the Will of God, and regard their desires as utter nothingness beside His Purpose. Whatsoever the Creator commandeth His creatures to observe, the same must they diligently, and with the utmost joy and eagerness, arise and fulfil. They should in no wise allow their fancy to obscure their judgment, neither should they regard their own imaginings as the voice of the Eternal..... In this consisteth the complete surrender of one’s will to the Will of God. Meditate on this, that thou mayest drink in the waters of everlasting life which flow through the words of the Lord of all mankind, and mayest testify that the one true God hath ever been immeasurably exalted above His creatures. He, verily, is the Incomparable, the Ever-Abiding, the Omniscient, the All-Wise. The station of absolute self-surrender transcendeth, and will ever remain exalted above, every other station.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 337-338

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-160.html

Sorry, this is difficult to read. Too many haths and eths and ests. It is clumsily written and takes a very long time to say what Jesus said in a sentence or two. Life is too short.

So what happened to change your mind?

My mind was opened and the Light shone in.

 

[Trailblazer]

What do you think about the use of the word 'hate' in these verses? Does it not seem harsh to ask someone to hate their mother and father?

I do not think that Jesus meant that literally. I think He was just trying to make a strong point, the point I made.
What do you think Jesus means? Does it seem harsh to you?

Sorry, this is difficult to read. Too many haths and eths and ests. It is clumsily written and takes a very long time to say what Jesus said in a sentence or two. Life is too short.

I have no trouble understanding Baha'u'llah but I have trouble understanding the Bible, so I guess it is just a matter of personal abilities and familiarity with the texts. But the main thing is that Baha'u'llah did not normally talk in parables, He got right to the point, so there was no need to figure out what He meant by what He was saying. The other thing is that Baha'u'llah appointed two interpreters of His writings so if you cannot understand His original writings you can read the interpretations. Neither one of these things did Jesus have so people are just left trying to figure out what He meant. Some people cannot understand what He meant, and most people do not agree on what He meant so it is one big guessing game.

Baha'u'llah also write The Hidden Words, and they are short and convey the same meanings as the longer verses that He wrote. Regarding self and turning away from the world, these cover a lot of territory and are easy to comprehend. "Me" and ""My" refer to God, not to Baha'u'llah. "We" refers to God and His Manifestations such as Jesus and Baha'u'llah.

7. O Son of Man!
If thou lovest Me, turn away from thyself; and if thou seekest My pleasure, regard not thine own; that thou mayest die in Me and I may eternally live in thee.

8. O Son of Spirit!
There is no peace for thee save by renouncing thyself and turning unto Me; for it behooveth thee to glory in My name, not in thine own; to put thy trust in Me and not in thyself, since I desire to be loved alone and above all that is.

55. O Son of Being!
Busy not thyself with this world, for with fire We test the gold, and with gold We test Our servants.

56. O Son of Man!
Thou dost wish for gold and I desire thy freedom from it. Thou thinkest thyself rich in its possession, and I recognize thy wealth in thy sanctity therefrom. By My life! This is My knowledge, and that is thy fancy; how can My way accord with thine?

63. O Son of Man!
The light hath shone on thee from the horizon of the sacred Mount and the spirit of enlightenment hath breathed in the Sinai of thy heart. Wherefore, free thyself from the veils of idle fancies and enter into My court, that thou mayest be fit for everlasting life and worthy to meet Me. Thus may death not come upon thee, neither weariness nor trouble.

30. O Bondslave of the World!
Many a dawn hath the breeze of My loving-kindness wafted over thee and found thee upon the bed of heedlessness fast asleep. Bewailing then thy plight it returned whence it came.

31.O Son of Earth!
Wouldst thou have Me, seek none other than Me; and wouldst thou gaze upon My beauty, close thine eyes to the world and all that is therein; for My will and the will of another than Me, even as fire and water, cannot dwell together in one heart.

32. O Befriended Stranger!
The candle of thine heart is lighted by the hand of My power, quench it not with the contrary winds of self and passion. The healer of all thine ills is remembrance of Me, forget it not. Make My love thy treasure and cherish it even as thy very sight and life.

The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah

My mind was opened and the Light shone in.

The same thing happened to me.

 

[samtonga43]

Sometimes verses have one meaning and sometimes they can mean many different things. It depends upon the verse.

No, it does not depend on the verse. It depends upon the context of the verse, and the literary genre of the context. If one fails to take these into account, then one will not grasp the meaning.

I believe that as God's Representative among men, Baha'u'llah knew the correct meaning
so what I believe the Bible means is derived from what He and His appointed interpreters wrote.

Right.
You start with Baha'u'llah.
I start with the Triune God.

I can also know what the Bible does not mean from knowing who Baha'u'llah was and knowing what He wrote in His Writings that has nothing to do with the Bible.

And what was written in the Bible has nothing to do with Baha'u'llah.
(Are you enjoying this little game?)

 

[samtonga43]

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted.

Correct. the Word of God can never be exhausted. Personally I find that, each time I hear the Word of God expounded, I discover deep truths God’s love for His people, and how He expresses that love through His Holy Spirit.
“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them”.

Hebrews 13:8

 

[samtonga43]

I know what I know but I am not trying to prove anything to others because that is not a job that God gave me to do.

Tb, I have news for you; neither you nor I nor anyone else could ever PROVE anything concerning our respective faiths.
'I believe in Christianity as I believe that the Sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else'. Lewis

"I know what some verses do not mean, because I know what happened after the Bible was written." What I meant by that is that I know that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah.

How do you know?
***
I read somewhere (re your faith) the phrase “Hands of the Cause of God”. Who are these hands?

 

[samtonga43]

I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is a Person that does things, I believe the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God.That said, I believe we can be guided by the Bounty of God.

God is Triune
“It needs the Trinity to make a Christian, it needs the Trinity to cheer a Christian, it needs the Trinity to complete a Christian, it needs the Trinity to create in a Christian the hope of glory. ‘Glory be unto the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost: as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end! Amen.’ It is most sweet to be called upon to offer special worship unto the one God in the Trinity of his divine Persons, and to feel your heart readily inclined thereto, as we do at this hour” Charles Spurgeon (Circa 1860)

 

[samtonga43]

The correct meaning is the meaning that God intended but as I said before there can be more than one correct meaning.

Really? Do you also believe that 2+2 can sometimes equal 5? Or that Paris is the capital city of France and also the capital city of Italy?

How is that relevant?

I ought to have used ‘guide’ instead of ‘treat’. Do you understand now?

I do not believe I know what the Bible means 'better than anyone else', but I know what it cannot mean because of what Baha'u'lalh wrote and did. That is not my ego since it does not come from ME.

(My emphasis above) Can you tell me, in your own words, what Baha'u'lalh said to bring this negative knowledge to you?

 

[Skywalker]

Here is something most Christians don't know:

Jesus promised no less than FOUR times in the gospels that he would return to earth and his apostles would live to see it, yet he never showed up.

Paul believed fervently that Jesus would return in his lifetime:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then WE who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." 1 Thessolonians 4:16-17

Now Paul may have put this idea into the heads of the gospel writers when they started writing the gospels. They had Jesus make these four prophesies that he would return before the apostles died:

“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)

For me, this is the one that cannot be excused away with rationalizations like "Jesus was referring to the future generation", or "Jesus was referring to God's time which could be thousands of years in the future". We have Jesus referring directly to the people listening to him when he made that failed prophecy "some of you standing here will not taste death until you see me return"

...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.“ (Matthew 24: 25-34)

“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place…“ (Mark 13:26-30)

Here in Chap 10 Jesus is giving his apostles instructions on how they should conduct themselves when he sends them out to do God's work

Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (Matthew 10:23)

Naturally Jesus never showed up. Why? Because we can assume he never said he would return--this was all invention by the gospel writers probably based on Paul's belief Jesus would return and Paul would live to see it. There are five rationalizations Christians have come up with for Jesus' no-show. All are patently ridiculous but you can read them in the link below:

Jesus’ Failed Prophecy About His Return

Pentecost was not the second coming of Jesus. Was Christ Mistaken About His Second Coming?

In another sense, Jesus promised he would “come” with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the establishment of his kingdom on the day of Pentecost.
In seeking to comfort the disciples in those dark hours before the cross, the Lord promised: “I will not leave you desolate.” He then announced that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, would come (Jn. 14:16-18, 26; 15:26). Yet in that connection, Christ declared: “I come unto you” (In. 14:18).
How was Christ to come to them? Not personally, but representatively, in the Person of the Holy Spirit whom he was sending (Jn. 15:26).
This is in perfect harmony with Matthew 16:28 which depicts Christ as “coming” in his kingdom.
Note the logic:
The Lord’s kingdom was to come with power (Mk. 9:1).
But the power was to come with the Spirit (Acts 1:8).
Thus, the kingdom was to come with the Spirit.
However, as we have already shown, the Spirit’s coming was in a sense a coming of the Lord (In. 14:18). Therefore, with the coming of the kingdom, in one sense of the term, Christ came; and this is the meaning of Matthew 16:28,
“ome of them that stand here ... shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”

 

[Trailblazer]

No, it does not depend on the verse. It depends upon the context of the verse, and the literary genre of the context. If one fails to take these into account, then one will not grasp the meaning.

That is no guarantee you will grasp the correct meaning. The meaning of the Book was sealed up until the time of the end (Daniel 12). I can grasp the meaning because Baha’u’llah unsealed the Book and I read what He wrote. Unsealing the Book means knowledge has been increased so we can now understand what could never be understood before.

And what was written in the Bible has nothing to do with Baha'u'llah.

It very much does because the Old Testament prophecies and Jesus both foretold the Coming of Baha’u’llah.

(Are you enjoying this little game?)

It is not a game to me because I am not trying to win anything. I just answer posts that are posted to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

Tb, I have news for you; neither you nor I nor anyone else could ever PROVE anything concerning our respective faiths.
'I believe in Christianity as I believe that the Sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else'. Lewis

I never said I could prove anything, but certain facts of history can be proven.
I do not only believe because I have faith in Baha'u'llah, I believe because of those facts: #22 Trailblazer

How do you know?
***

I know because of the facts but also because I was guided. Baha'u'llah was quoted as saying the following:

“Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation. The memory of this night will never be forgotten. May it never be effaced by the passage of time, and may its mention linger for ever on the lips of men.”

The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586

I read somewhere (re your faith) the phrase “Hands of the Cause of God”. Who are these hands?

The Hands of the Cause, or Hands (informally) was a title for an appointed position in the Baháʼí Faith. The position was appointed for life by the religion's founders, with the last one dying in 2007. Hands of the Cause played a significant role in propagating the religion, and protecting it from schism.

There were fifty Hands of the Cause in all, four named by Baháʼu'lláh, four by ʻAbdu'l-Bahá and forty-two by Shoghi Effendi (including ten posthumously).

With the passing of Shoghi Effendi in 1957, the twenty-seven living Hands of the Cause at the time would be the last appointed (the last living being ʻAlí-Muhammad Varqá, d. 2007). The Universal House of Justice, the governing body first elected in 1963, created the Institution of the Counsellors in 1968 and the appointed Continental Counsellors over time took on the role that the Hands of the Cause were filling. The announcement in 1968 also changed the role of the Hand of the Cause, changing them from continental appointments to worldwide, and nine Counsellors working at the International Teaching Centre took on the role of the nine Hands of the Cause who worked in the Baháʼí World Centre.

The most complete list of the Hands available is from The Baháʼí World: Vol XIV. The Universal House of Justice has confirmed that this list may not be complete, and that a study of the letters and archives may reveal others named to this position.

Hands of the Cause - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

God is Triune
“It needs the Trinity to make a Christian, it needs the Trinity to cheer a Christian, it needs the Trinity to complete a Christian, it needs the Trinity to create in a Christian the hope of glory. ‘Glory be unto the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost: as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end! Amen.’ It is most sweet to be called upon to offer special worship unto the one God in the Trinity of his divine Persons, and to feel your heart readily inclined thereto, as we do at this hour” Charles Spurgeon (Circa 1860)

I do not believe that God is three Persons in one. The Baha'i Faith has a Trinity belief, but it is different from the Christian Trinity belief.

Question.—What is the meaning of the Trinity, of the Three Persons in One?

Answer.—The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent ..............

God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror. All the creatures are evident signs of God, like the earthly beings upon all of which the rays of the sun shine. But upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits, only a portion of the light shines, through which they become visible, and are reared, and attain to the object of their existence, while the Perfect Man 2 is in the condition of a clear mirror in which the Sun of Reality becomes visible and manifest with all its qualities and perfections. So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection.

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent. Some Answered Questions, pp. 113-115

The full chapter can be read here: 27: THE TRINITY

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Some people get lost in that chapter, so I wrote up a brief encapsulation of it.

I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, so in that sense I believe in a Trinity; but I do not think that these three are part of God. Rather, they are separate entities that work together.

There is only One God.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God, an emanation from God. God is like the sun and the Holy Spirit is like the rays of the sun. God remains in His own high place, and does not ever descend to earth.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which became visible and evident in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror, but God did not descend into the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the God was visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Comforter, Counselor, Helper, and Advocate are all descriptive terms or titles used for the Bounty of God that came to us through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Trailblazer]

(My emphasis above) Can you tell me, in your own words, what Baha'u'lalh said to bring this negative knowledge to you?

"I do not believe I know what the Bible means 'better than anyone else', but I know what it cannot mean because of what Baha'u'llah wrote and did."

It cannot mean a lot of things that Christians believe it means. One thing it cannot mean is that Jesus is coming back to earth to build a kingdom because Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ who revealed what humans will need to build the Kingdom of God on earth. It cannot mean is that Jesus is the Messiah of the latter days because Baha'u'llah was that Messiah. It cannot mean that the word 'clouds' as used in the Bible means physical clouds because Baha'u'llah explained that clouds is symbolic for veils that block one's understanding. It cannot mean that the word 'resurrection' as referred to in the Bible means a physical resurrection of the body because Baha'u'llah explained that resurrection means the rise of the Manifestation of God to proclaim His Cause, so it means the resurrection of the Cause of God every time a new Manifestation of God comes to earth.

The list goes on.

 

[samtonga43]

I do not think that Jesus meant that literally. I think He was just trying to make a strong point, the point I made.
What do you think Jesus means? Does it seem harsh to you?

No, because I know why He used the word ‘hate’. Again, it’s all to do with context. An understanding of context is a vital part of hermeneutics. This time the context is to do with use and meaning of words then and now.

I have no trouble understanding Baha'u'llah but I have trouble understanding the Bible, so I guess it is just a matter of personal abilities and familiarity with the texts.

Yes, I have found that many non-Christians have problems understanding the Bible. But of course any book is much easier to understand when written in modern (rather than 17th) English. That’s pretty obvious. God speaks to us as we are now, in this moment, just where we are. He’s not stuck in 1611, unlike those who dost readeth His words in a strange tongue, hoping that they mayest understand. It behooveth us to hear Him speak to us, His beloved children of the twenty-first century.

But the main thing is that Baha'u'llah did not normally talk in parables, He got right to the point, so there was no need to figure out what He meant by what He was saying.

You don’t understand the meaning of the parables? You don’t understand what the story of the Prodigal Son is all about? Or the Good Samaritan? Are you serious? Parables are by far the best way to communicate spiritual truths. Jesus knew that people remember stories, and grasp more easily the meaning behind the story, Getting ‘right to the point’ is dull and un-remarkable and easily cast aside.

The other thing is that Baha'u'llah appointed two interpreters of His writings so if you cannot understand His original writings you can read the interpretations. Neither one of these things did Jesus have so people are just left trying to figure out what He meant. Some people cannot understand what He meant, and most people do not agree on what He meant so it is one big guessing game.

“By self-surrender and perpetual union with God is meant that men should merge their will wholly in the Will of God, and regard their desires as utter nothingness beside His Purpose. Whatsoever the Creator commandeth His creatures to observe, the same must they diligently, and with the utmost joy and eagerness, arise and fulfil. They should in no wise allow their fancy to obscure their judgment, neither should they regard their own imaginings as the voice of the Eternal..... In this consisteth the complete surrender of one’s will to the Will of God. Meditate on this, that thou mayest drink in the waters of everlasting life which flow through the words of the Lord of all mankind, and mayest testify that the one true God hath ever been immeasurably exalted above His creatures. He, verily, is the Incomparable, the Ever-Abiding, the Omniscient, the All-Wise. The station of absolute self-surrender transcendeth, and will ever remain exalted above, every other station.” Baha’u’llah
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind” Jesus
and
“Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me”. Jesus
Now, who gets right to the point? Seems to be Jesus, does it not? Baha’u’llah’s prose is over-embellished and turgid.

Baha'u'llah also write The Hidden Words, and they are short and convey the same meanings as the longer verses that He wrote.

Why does B. need interpreters? Was he unable to write clearly?
Did the 'Hidden Words' also need interpretation? And why are they ‘hidden’?

 

[Trailblazer]

No, because I know why He used the word ‘hate’. Again, it’s all to do with context. An understanding of context is a vital part of hermeneutics. This time the context is to do with use and meaning of words then and now.

I also know why Jesus used the word hate, as I explained, and I know from the context.

Yes, I have found that many non-Christians have problems understanding the Bible. But of course any book is much easier to understand when written in modern (rather than 17th) English. That’s pretty obvious. God speaks to us as we are now, in this moment, just where we are. He’s not stuck in 1611, unlike those who dost readeth His words in a strange tongue, hoping that they mayest understand. It behooveth us to hear Him speak to us, His beloved children of the twenty-first century.

The KJV of the Bible is just as valid as the NIV even though it might be more difficult to understand. There was a time when there were not all these new translations of the Bible, so does that mean that the Bible was not true back then? Try to think logically.

Published in 1611, the King James Bible spread quickly throughout Europe. Because of the wealth of resources devoted to the project, it was the most faithful and scholarly translation to date—not to mention the most accessible.Mar 22, 2019

Why the King James Bible of 1611 Remains the Most Popular

You don’t understand the meaning of the parables? You don’t understand what the story of the Prodigal Son is all about? Or the Good Samaritan? Are you serious? Parables are by far the best way to communicate spiritual truths. Jesus knew that people remember stories, and grasp more easily the meaning behind the story, Getting ‘right to the point’ is dull and un-remarkable and easily cast aside.

I did not say that I don’t understand those parables and I did not say that is not a good way to communicate. I said that ‘some’ of what Jesus said was not easy to understand. That is one reason why Christians interpret the Bible in different ways, to mean different things. But Jesus said it would not always be that way.

John 16:25 21st Century King James Version
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs; but the time cometh when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly of the Father.

Baha’is believe that in that verse Jesus was referring to when He would return in the Person of Baha’u’llah, who was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth. You might not like the King James English translation, but Baha’u’llah showed us the Father plainly in Gleanings because that little book contains everything we need to know about God and His Manifestations (although more is written elsewhere).

“By self-surrender and perpetual union with God is meant that men should merge their will wholly in the Will of God, and regard their desires as utter nothingness beside His Purpose. Whatsoever the Creator commandeth His creatures to observe, the same must they diligently, and with the utmost joy and eagerness, arise and fulfil. They should in no wise allow their fancy to obscure their judgment, neither should they regard their own imaginings as the voice of the Eternal..... In this consisteth the complete surrender of one’s will to the Will of God. Meditate on this, that thou mayest drink in the waters of everlasting life which flow through the words of the Lord of all mankind, and mayest testify that the one true God hath ever been immeasurably exalted above His creatures. He, verily, is the Incomparable, the Ever-Abiding, the Omniscient, the All-Wise. The station of absolute self-surrender transcendeth, and will ever remain exalted above, every other station.” Baha’u’llah
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind” Jesus
and
“Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me”. Jesus

Now, who gets right to the point? Seems to be Jesus, does it not? Baha’u’llah’s prose is over-embellished and turgid.

Baha’u’llah says the same things Jesus said in the Hidden Words. He just words it differently but the meaning is the same.

7. O Son of Man!
If thou lovest Me, turn away from thyself; and if thou seekest My pleasure, regard not thine own; that thou mayest die in Me and I may eternally live in thee.

8. O Son of Spirit!
There is no peace for thee save by renouncing thyself and turning unto Me; for it behooveth thee to glory in My name, not in thine own; to put thy trust in Me and not in thyself, since I desire to be loved alone and above all that is.

55. O Son of Being!
Busy not thyself with this world, for with fire We test the gold, and with gold We test Our servants.

56. O Son of Man!
Thou dost wish for gold and I desire thy freedom from it. Thou thinkest thyself rich in its possession, and I recognize thy wealth in thy sanctity therefrom. By My life! This is My knowledge, and that is thy fancy; how can My way accord with thine?

31. O Son of Earth!
Wouldst thou have Me, seek none other than Me; and wouldst thou gaze upon My beauty, close thine eyes to the world and all that is therein; for My will and the will of another than Me, even as fire and water, cannot dwell together in one heart.

The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah

If you have logical abilities you would understand that Baha’u’llah wrote 15,000 Tablets; so of you cherry pick one paragraph from one Tablet and use it as an example of what Baha’u’llah wrote that is committing the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization and the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions.

Another thing is that Gleanings is not a representative example of all the Writings of Baha’u’llah. It is called Gleanings because it is an extraction of information from various Tablets, with a specific purpose in mind. From the Introduction of Gleanings:

“Gleanings is excerpts from various Tablets. In the introduction to Gleanings it explains how it is organized into five parts. Part one, pages 1-46, proclaims this as the “Day of God.” Part two, pages 46-136, concerns the Manifestation of God and His significance. Part three, pages 136-200, deals with basic questions concerning the soul and its immortality. Part four, pages 200-259, concerns the spiritual aspects of the World Order and the Most Great Peace. Part five, pages 259-346, deals with the duties of the individual and the spiritual meaning of life.” Gleanings

The reason that I cite Gleanings so much is because it contains the subject matter I am talking about and trying to explain to others who do not know about the Baha’i Faith. Also, it is my favorite book because it is very inspiring to me and I need inspiration. What you consider over-embellished and turgid I consider inspiring. Different strokes for different folks.

“Gleanings is a book for meditative study. It is not a book of history and facts, but of love and spiritual power. No one can understand the faith of the thousands of martyred followers of the Bab, unless he catches the spirit of this book. No one can appreciate why thousands of Baha’is give up the comfort of settled homes and move into strange countries to tell the people about Baha’u’llah, unless he clearly glimpses the spirit of this book.”Gleanings

If you are trying to make this into a contest between Jesus and Baha’u’llah as to who can be the most concise that won’t work, because I already cited some of the Hidden Words of Baha’u’llah that get right to the point.

Why does B. need interpreters? Was he unable to write clearly?
Did the 'Hidden Words' also need interpretation? And why are they ‘hidden’?

Baha’u’llah did not need interpreters but He appointed interpreters because to ensure that His writings would not be misconstrued. I fully understand what Baha’u’llah meant by what He wrote but everyone is not as familiar with the Baha’i Faith as I am. There was a time when I did not understand Gleanings but now that I have read other books I can come back to it and understand it.

I do not think the Hidden Words require any interpretation, they stand on their own. The Hidden Words are not called that because the meaning is hidden, as the meaning would be clearly apparent to anyone who has already grasped the meaning of the Bible. Baha’u’llah explained what the Hidden Words are in the Preamble.

Preamble

HE IS THE GLORY OF GLORIES

This is that which hath descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might, and revealed unto the Prophets of old. We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity, as a token of grace unto the righteous, that they may stand faithful unto the Covenant of God, may fulfill in their lives His trust, and in the realm of spirit obtain the gem of Divine virtue.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 3

 

[samtonga43]

I also know why Jesus used the word hate, as I explained, and I know from the context.

And what is the context within which Jesus chose to use the word ‘hate’, Tb?

The KJV of the Bible is just as valid as the NIV even though it might be more difficult to understand. There was a time when there were not all these new translations of the Bible, so does that mean that the Bible was not true back then? Try to think logically.

Now, be logical, Tb (and attentive). Did I say that the 17th Century KJV wasn’t true? I don't believe I did. Do you think God wants to His Word to be understood? I hope you realize that ‘back then’ KJV WAS a modern version. But we are here now. We were not there back then.

Published in 1611, the King James Bible spread quickly throughout Europe. Because of the wealth of resources devoted to the project, it was the most faithful and scholarly translation to date—not to mention the most accessible.Mar 22, 2019

Note the tense --- past.

John 16:25 21st Century King James Version
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs; but the time cometh when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly of the Father.

Baha’is believe that in that verse Jesus was referring to when He would return in the Person of Baha’u’llah, who was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth. You might not like the King James English translation, but Baha’u’llah showed us the Father plainly in Gleanings because that little book contains everything we need to know about God and His Manifestations (although more is written elsewhere).

I am a Christian, Tb. I know everything I need to know because the Bible contains everything I need to know about the Triune God.

Baha’u’llah says the same things Jesus said in the Hidden Words. He just words it differently but the meaning is the same.

If this is so, any ‘Hidden Words’ are superfluous. I don’t need them. I have the words of Jesus un-hidden.

If you have logical abilities you would understand that Baha’u’llah wrote 15,000 Tablets; so of you cherry pick one paragraph from one Tablet and use it as an example of what Baha’u’llah wrote that is committing the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization and the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions.

And you, my friend, are committing the fallacy of False Accusation, and the fallacy of JTC. If YOU think logically you will perhaps realize that this paragraph was cherry-picked by YOU. See #1102.

The reason that I cite Gleanings so much is because it contains the subject matter I am talking about and trying to explain to others who do not know about the Baha’i Faith.

If you really wish to explain your faith to others, I would advise you not to use 17th Century English. This is today,Tb; 2021!

No one can appreciate why thousands of Baha’is give up the comfort of settled homes and move into strange countries to tell the people about Baha’u’llah, unless he clearly glimpses the spirit of this book.”

As thousands upon thousands of Christian missionaries have done for centuries and will continue to do?

Baha’u’llah did not need interpreters but He appointed interpreters because to ensure that His writings would not be misconstrued

.
Who ensured that the interpreters’ writing would not be misconstrued?

I do not think the Hidden Words require any interpretation, they stand on their own. The Hidden Words are not called that because the meaning is hidden, as the meaning would be clearly apparent to anyone who has already grasped the meaning of the Bible. Baha’u’llah explained what the Hidden Words are in the Preamble.

.
In that case, if one has grasped the meaning of the Bible, there is no need for the ‘Hidden Words’.

HE IS THE GLORY OF GLORIES
This is that which hath descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might, and revealed unto the Prophets of old. We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity, as a token of grace unto the righteous, that they may stand faithful unto the Covenant of God, may fulfill in their lives His trust, and in the realm of spirit obtain the gem of Divine virtue.

(Bold) Now there’s irony for you!

 

[Trailblazer]

And what is the context within which Jesus chose to use the word ‘hate’, Tb?

I already explained that. Go back a few posts.

Now, be logical, Tb (and attentive). Did I say that the 17th Century KJV wasn’t true? I don't believe I did. Do you think God wants to His Word to be understood? I hope you realize that ‘back then’ KJV WAS a modern version. But we are here now. We were not there back then.

The KJV is still understandable and valid. I prefer it just as I like the Gleanings style of prose. If I don’t understand the KJV I can look at a more modern translation such as the NIV, and if I don’t understand what Baha’u’llah meant by what He wrote there are other sources I can look at.

Note the tense --- past.

Google search: What is the most accurate translation of the Bible in the world?

The King James Version

The King James Version is the world's most widely known Bible translation, using early seventeenth-century English. Its powerful, majestic style has made it a literary classic, with many of its phrases and expressions embedded in our language.

Versions | Cambridge University Press

I am a Christian, Tb. I know everything I need to know because the Bible contains everything I need to know about the Triune God.

Fine. I am a Baha’i and the Writings of Baha’u’llah contain everything I need to know about the one true God. I have absolutely no need for the Bible.

If this is so, any ‘Hidden Words’ are superfluous. I don’t need them. I have the words of Jesus un-hidden.

They are not superfluous to me because they are far more sophisticated than anything Jesus ever wrote and they contain some new information. That is what happens whenever God sends a new Messenger, that Messenger reveals new information that can be added to what was revealed before, written in a way that is suited to the intellectual capacities of humans living in the age in which it was revealed.

And you, my friend, are committing the fallacy of False Accusation, and the fallacy of JTC. If YOU think logically you will perhaps realize that this paragraph was cherry-picked by YOU. See #1102.

That argument will not work because you were the one who cherry-picked that passage and used it as an example to compare to what Jesus said.

“Now, who gets right to the point? Seems to be Jesus, does it not? Baha’u’llah’s prose is over-embellished and turgid.”
#1115 samtonga43

If you really wish to explain your faith to others, I would advise you not to use 17th Century English. This is today,Tb; 2021!

That argument will not work either, because other people can understand it and if they don’t understand it they ask me what it means.

As thousands upon thousands of Christian missionaries have done for centuries and will continue to do?

Continuing to do that is all for naught, because the Dispensation of Jesus was abrogated by the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah.
The following was written by one of the two interpreters that Baha’u’llah appointed, in plain English.

“A Revelation, hailed as the promise and crowning glory of past ages and centuries, as the consummation of all the Dispensations within the Adamic Cycle, inaugurating an era of at least a thousand years’ duration, and a cycle destined to last no less than five thousand centuries, signalizing the end of the Prophetic Era and the beginning of the Era of Fulfillment, unsurpassed alike in the duration of its Author’s ministry and the fecundity and splendor of His mission—such a Revelation was, as already noted, born amidst the darkness of a subterranean dungeon in Tihrán—an abominable pit that had once served as a reservoir of water for one of the public baths of the city.” God Passes By, p. 100

Who ensured that the interpreters’ writing would not be misconstrued?

Nobody can ensure that as we are all humans so we are fallible. However, we have the Universal House of Justice (UHJ) who we can turn to if we are uncertain as to what any of the Writings mean.

In that case, if one has grasped the meaning of the Bible, there is no need for the ‘Hidden Words’.

To each his or her own. It is much easier to find something in the few pages of the Hidden Words than to go hunting in the Bible hoping I will find what I am looking for, someday.

 

[rational experiences]

Human teaching.
Human preaching

No science statement first
Versus science knowingly destroying natural life.

Thinking by a living aware spiritual psyche.

Father a human first owned body.
Mother a human first owned body.

Never any of us.

Sperm in father body.
Ovary in mother body.

We are just baby grown into adults who die.

When healthy have sex form new baby life.

Not sciences status. Never was science.

Science is a living human thinking theories. A life equal by body but not by mind

Mind in science status self destructive behaviour via egotism.

Group cult controlled.

A human father as reviewed by a baby to adult man.

I need my adult man father to be healthy. I need to survive.

My father owns his son life partially in his father human form. A whole human owning sperm. To be a human father.

A father son theme.
Then I need all heavenly conditions the spirits gases or host to be natural.

Heavens owner half very cold clear gas. Other half sacrificed burning.
I live in the water oxygenated spirit heavens.

A father son ghost host Trinity realisation just as a human man.

Owning no other teaching except for self a man human.

 

[Skywalker]

And this is merely another defensive BS verse. The writers of the Bible saw its many flaws and had to have an excuse. This sort of verse underscores the flaws of the Bible. If the Bible was without flaw, if it was the "word of God" such verses would not be necessary.

The Bible is there to make you wise unto salvation, which is 2 Timothy 3:16. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

It's not going to tell you everything about everything. It couldn't, it's a limited document just like anything else. All writing is selective. You got to leave out a lot more than what you could say.