dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Thank you for the reply. I'm familiar with what you're describing, but this so called Holy Spirit can also be an imposter? It still looks like a coin toss, 50/50 Holy or not.
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Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews
- Thread starter Ehav4Ever
- Start date
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
This is what Jesus said, 'Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will give him a stone?
Or if he ask a fish [like an eel], will he give him a serpent?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?' [Matthew 7:9-11.]
What is that? I don't see the point of using obscure terms in an interfaith discussion when you can use terms more readily understood by all.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
This has become circular logic. The story is discerned to be authentic by the spirit, the spirit is discerned to be authentic by the story.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
You can break into the circle....with faith!
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Thank you for your replies and answering my questions.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
I'm just an old sinner saved by the love of God in Christ!
If we are now speaking of a group, I think early Christians have not disappeared. Every Christian who remains in the words of Jesus, is an early Christian.
POST ONE OF TWO
Hi @rosends
Rosends said : “There is substantial discussion of the role and purpose of the DSS and their authorship. Using them to prove differences in text is a difficult task without knowing if they were placed in pots as genizah or if they were written by branch sects who had separate textual traditions.”
I like your points here.
1) REGARDING THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN DEAD SEA BIBLE AND THE MASORETIC
I think the best way to "prove differences" is to compare the two texts to see the differences.
For example :
Incomplete and Lost Narratives in the Jewish Masoretic Bible:
The Christian Justyn Martyr in his Debate with the Jew Trypho (approx. 155 a.d.) pointed out that Jewish text, even by that time had changed and some of the lost or corrupted text would have made the scriptures more clear that Jesus was the very Messiah, as @Billardsball indicated. (Whether the Jews would have accepted the Messiah if such changes had not occurred in their scriptures is another matter).
The Dead Sea Scrolls demonstrate examples of corruptions in the Jewish Masoretic Bible, such as lost narrative.
For example
The Dead Sea Scrolls version of the Old Testamet / Tanahk restores a missing paragraph in 1 Samuel 11:1.
This single paragraph represents forty nine words (49) which are missing in the Hebrew Masoretic Bible in just this single verse.
The restoration of the missing paragraph helps readers to understand the situation; the conditions of the treaty of Nahash, and the underlying motive to rally around King Saul and the prophet Samuel. It elucidates the Israelite motive to Slay many Ammonites and to cause the others to flee.
Missing text in the Jewish Masoretic record is NOT a rare occurrence. There are also smaller, but significant additions in verses 11, 13, 18, 22, 23 and 24 IN JUST THE FIRST CHAPTER OF SAMUEL.
Such errors in the Jewish Masoretic is partly the reason multiple modern Bibles prefer the DSS textual readings over the Jewish Masoretic hebrew text.
I am NOT saying the Jews are the only ones to corrupt sacred texts and textual histories. Corruptions have occurred in all ancient sacred historical texts of significant size whether Jewish, or Christian, or Samaritan, etc.
REGARDING MULTIPLE VERSIONS OF JEWISH TEXTS - DEAD SEA SCROLL OLD TESTAMENT OR JEWISH MASORETIC – which is more correct and more original?
I agree that there were definitely multiple versions of the Tanakh and that the DSS is a different version than that of the Masoretic and that some versions are more correct than others.
I also see and appreciate the logic of your suggestion that one cannot tell what text is written by a “branch sect” and what is the more original and more correct version.
However, the application of this observation can apply to the Masoretic as well.
Because of the errors and glosses and losses in the Jewish Masoretic, I think It is probable that the much older Dead Sea Scroll version of the Old Testament / Tanakh represents the more original and correct version and the Masoretic source texts were written by a branch sect.
2) Clear said: “… I am not talking about simply using a different alphabet, but using a different language.
Rosends replied : “This is a difference then, as I am only talking about the use of shaped letters loaned from other languages to codify a preexisting oral language.
Thus there is no argument that Assyrian and Hebrew were ever the same, just that Hebrew, when transitioning from a spoken language to a written one, might have done so by adopting the written forms of letters used in Assyrian.
I can certainly imagine this possibility. I use Greek letters to write German words to keep track of English texts even though all three are different languages.
3) Clear said: My point was that other written languages existed at a time when no evidence of written Hebrew existed.
IF the biblical stories were written down in this time before Hebrew existed, then the stories had to be written in a different, existing language.
Rosend responded : “But there are plenty of cultures whose national myths were transmitted orally. “
I agree with this as well. And I agree with the majority opinion that Hebrew traditions and histories existed in an oral form before they were written down into a written language.
4) Clear said: “We can call it “Masoretic Hebrew” or “medieval Hebrew” if you want.
Rosend said : “The two time periods referenced here are very different.”
The medieval period was approx. 5th to 10th (perhaps to 15th century)
The Masoretic Bible was created approx. 5th to 10th century.
From the standpoint of eons of history, I think the periods are similar :
Having pointed this out, It honestly doesn’t matter to me what we call the type of Hebrew that is used for the Masoretic Bible as long as it is not conflated with a different ancient language. Do you want to use "Masoretic Hebrew" or another term? It doesn't matter to me. We can use any term you want for this, specific Hebrew.
5) Clear said: “If anyone can show that the oldest writing in existence is actually Hebrew with different letters, but the same grammar and lexicon and syntax and semantics, etc, then Hebrew has to be the oldest written language.”
Clear said : “For now, there is no data supporting the claim that written Hebrew was the written language used by Abraham, etc.”
Rosend responded : “I'm not sure that anyone is claiming that Hebrew is the oldest written language. The questin related to "what did Adam speak" not "what did Adam write."
Rosend said : “Nor do we have any record that Abraham wrote anything at all. But he spoke to others.”
I agree with the theory that Hebrew was NOT the oldest spoken OR written language.
Regarding whether Abraham wrote or not, my comments were made in the context of the Jewish- Christian tradition that Adam DID write.
POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
Hi @rosends
Rosends said : “There is substantial discussion of the role and purpose of the DSS and their authorship. Using them to prove differences in text is a difficult task without knowing if they were placed in pots as genizah or if they were written by branch sects who had separate textual traditions.”
I like your points here.
1) REGARDING THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN DEAD SEA BIBLE AND THE MASORETIC
I think the best way to "prove differences" is to compare the two texts to see the differences.
For example :
Incomplete and Lost Narratives in the Jewish Masoretic Bible:
The Christian Justyn Martyr in his Debate with the Jew Trypho (approx. 155 a.d.) pointed out that Jewish text, even by that time had changed and some of the lost or corrupted text would have made the scriptures more clear that Jesus was the very Messiah, as @Billardsball indicated. (Whether the Jews would have accepted the Messiah if such changes had not occurred in their scriptures is another matter).
The Dead Sea Scrolls demonstrate examples of corruptions in the Jewish Masoretic Bible, such as lost narrative.
For example
The Dead Sea Scrolls version of the Old Testamet / Tanahk restores a missing paragraph in 1 Samuel 11:1.
This single paragraph represents forty nine words (49) which are missing in the Hebrew Masoretic Bible in just this single verse.
The restoration of the missing paragraph helps readers to understand the situation; the conditions of the treaty of Nahash, and the underlying motive to rally around King Saul and the prophet Samuel. It elucidates the Israelite motive to Slay many Ammonites and to cause the others to flee.
Missing text in the Jewish Masoretic record is NOT a rare occurrence. There are also smaller, but significant additions in verses 11, 13, 18, 22, 23 and 24 IN JUST THE FIRST CHAPTER OF SAMUEL.
Such errors in the Jewish Masoretic is partly the reason multiple modern Bibles prefer the DSS textual readings over the Jewish Masoretic hebrew text.
I am NOT saying the Jews are the only ones to corrupt sacred texts and textual histories. Corruptions have occurred in all ancient sacred historical texts of significant size whether Jewish, or Christian, or Samaritan, etc.
REGARDING MULTIPLE VERSIONS OF JEWISH TEXTS - DEAD SEA SCROLL OLD TESTAMENT OR JEWISH MASORETIC – which is more correct and more original?
I agree that there were definitely multiple versions of the Tanakh and that the DSS is a different version than that of the Masoretic and that some versions are more correct than others.
I also see and appreciate the logic of your suggestion that one cannot tell what text is written by a “branch sect” and what is the more original and more correct version.
However, the application of this observation can apply to the Masoretic as well.
Because of the errors and glosses and losses in the Jewish Masoretic, I think It is probable that the much older Dead Sea Scroll version of the Old Testament / Tanakh represents the more original and correct version and the Masoretic source texts were written by a branch sect.
2) Clear said: “… I am not talking about simply using a different alphabet, but using a different language.
Rosends replied : “This is a difference then, as I am only talking about the use of shaped letters loaned from other languages to codify a preexisting oral language.
Thus there is no argument that Assyrian and Hebrew were ever the same, just that Hebrew, when transitioning from a spoken language to a written one, might have done so by adopting the written forms of letters used in Assyrian.
I can certainly imagine this possibility. I use Greek letters to write German words to keep track of English texts even though all three are different languages.
3) Clear said: My point was that other written languages existed at a time when no evidence of written Hebrew existed.
IF the biblical stories were written down in this time before Hebrew existed, then the stories had to be written in a different, existing language.
Rosend responded : “But there are plenty of cultures whose national myths were transmitted orally. “
I agree with this as well. And I agree with the majority opinion that Hebrew traditions and histories existed in an oral form before they were written down into a written language.
4) Clear said: “We can call it “Masoretic Hebrew” or “medieval Hebrew” if you want.
Rosend said : “The two time periods referenced here are very different.”
The medieval period was approx. 5th to 10th (perhaps to 15th century)
The Masoretic Bible was created approx. 5th to 10th century.
From the standpoint of eons of history, I think the periods are similar :
Having pointed this out, It honestly doesn’t matter to me what we call the type of Hebrew that is used for the Masoretic Bible as long as it is not conflated with a different ancient language. Do you want to use "Masoretic Hebrew" or another term? It doesn't matter to me. We can use any term you want for this, specific Hebrew.
5) Clear said: “If anyone can show that the oldest writing in existence is actually Hebrew with different letters, but the same grammar and lexicon and syntax and semantics, etc, then Hebrew has to be the oldest written language.”
Clear said : “For now, there is no data supporting the claim that written Hebrew was the written language used by Abraham, etc.”
Rosend responded : “I'm not sure that anyone is claiming that Hebrew is the oldest written language. The questin related to "what did Adam speak" not "what did Adam write."
Rosend said : “Nor do we have any record that Abraham wrote anything at all. But he spoke to others.”
I agree with the theory that Hebrew was NOT the oldest spoken OR written language.
Regarding whether Abraham wrote or not, my comments were made in the context of the Jewish- Christian tradition that Adam DID write.
POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
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POST TWO OF TWO
5) JUDEO-CHRISTIAN HISTORY REGARDING Adam and Abraham and writing
I spoke in the context of the Jewish Claim that Adam and Abraham WERE taught writing and wrote texts (partly for the benefit of their descendants.)
Jewish Haggadah literature tells us that Adam knew writing and taught his descendants to write when it says : “But without the gift of the holy spirit, Adam could not have found names for all; he was in very truth a prophet, and his wisdom a prophetic quality. The names of the animals were not the only inheritance handed down by Adam to the generations after him, for mankind owes all crafts to him, especially the art of writing,..Jewish Haggadah - The Ideal Man.
Other ancient religious histories are consistent with this claim that Adam was taught writing and then taught his children to write. As Vitae Adam and Eve tells us that the son of Adam “…Seth made tablets of stone and clay, and wrote in them the life of his father Adam and his mother Eve, what he had heard from them and his eyes had seen and he put the tablets in the middle of the house of his father in the oratory where he used to pray to the Lord…”
For example, Jewish Jubilees 11 says that “...Terah took a wife and … she bore a son for him, and he called him Abram…. And the lad began understanding the straying of the land, that everyone went astray after graven images and after pollution. And his father taught him writing.” (vs 14-17)
Chapter 12 tells us Abram studied his fathers books. The translator even uses the word “hebrew” for the language but this reference is doubtful that the pagan writings from UR were actually Hebrew.
JUDEO-CHRISTIAN LITERATURE CLAIMS THAT THE PROPHETS ENOCH AND MOSES WROTE
Jubilees also tells us that from these earliest of history, others of the early prophets also wrote.
For example, of the Prophet Enoch, it was said : “… This one was the first who learned writing and knowledge and wisdom, from [among] the sons of men, from (among) those who were born upon earth. And who wrote in a book the signs of the heaven according to the order of their months, so that the sons of man might know the (appointed) times of the years according to their order, with respect to each of their months. 18.This one was the first (who) wrote a testimony and testified to the children of men throughout the generations of the earth...22 And he wrote everything, and bore witness to the Watchers Jubilees 4: 16-24;
The Prophet Enoch not only wrote in early histories, but committed his written testimonies to his descendents, saying to his children “And now, my children, place the thought on your hearts, and give heed to the sayings of your father which I am making known to you from the lips of the LORD. 2 And receive these books in your father’s handwriting, and read them. |For the books are many:| and in them you will learn all the deeds of the LORD. There have been many books since the beginning of creation, and there will be until the end of the age; but not one of them will make things as plain to you as (the books in) my handwriting. If you hold on firmly to them, you will not sin against the Lord.” 2nd Enoch 47:1-2;
We learn from the testament literature that multiple early Patriarchs made use of the written testimonies of Enoch.
Levi tells his sons, who are part of Israel, “And now, my children, I know from the writings of Enoch that in the end-time you will act impiously against the Lord, setting your hands to every evil deed; because of you, your brothers will be humiliated and among all the nations you shall become the occasion for scorn. For your father, Israel, is pure with respect to all the impieties of the chief priests, [who laid their hands on the Savior of the world,] as heaven is pure above the earth; and you should be the lights of Israel as the sun and the moon. For what will all the nations do if you become darkened with impiety? You will bring down a curse on our nation, because you want to destroy the light of the Law which was granted to you for the enlightenment of every man, teaching commandments which are opposed to God’s just ordinances. You plunder the Lord’s offerings; from his share you steal choice parts, contemptuously eating them with whores. You teach the Lord’s commands out of greed for gain; Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs- Levi 14:1-8;
In a way similar to Levi, Napthali also tells his sons, who are of Israel, “I say these things, my children, because I have read in the writings of Holy Enoch that you also will stray from the Lord, living in accord with every wickedness of the gentiles and committing every lawlessness of Sodom.” Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 4:1;
It is not merely Levi and Napthali who refer to the writings of Enoch, but similar saying are found among the other sons of Israel to their descendants. Dead Sea Scrolls 1Q AND 4Q and Geniza fragments have Levi saying to his sons, ““Consider my sons, my brother Joseph, who teaches writing and discipline and wisdom. 1Q21 Geniza Fragment, Mt Athos Greek Text, 4Q213-214, 4Q540-541
Historically, Enoch was a prolific writer, not only speaking of the evils which Israels descendants would do, but speaking to the γρεγορι the Jewish Dead Sea Scroll 4Q tells us “... in the very handwriting of Enoch the noted scribe “ and then goes to speak of evils that were done upon the earth (4Q530 Frag.2)
According to early tradition, Moses also wrote his testimony. Near the end of his life, Moses said : “The years of my life have come to an end and, in the presence of the entire community, I am going to sleep with my fathers. But (you) take this writing so that later you will remember how to preserve the books which I shall entrust to you. You shall arrange them, anoint them with cedar, and deposit them in earthenware jars in the place which (God) has chosen from the beginning of the creation of the world… Testament of Moses 1:12-17;
(It is worth noting that this is describing the very process by which the Dead Sea Scrolls were preserved for ages until finally being revealed to the world.)
Not only did Moses apparently write but there are references to written documents being necessary among his group. For example, In the Messiah’s time, the Pharisees came to him and asked : “… Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? “ The Messiah explained “…Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.) Matthew 19:7-8;
The point is that the larger histories do contain claims that writing, in some form, existed since the very beginning.
However, I agree with you that mediums such as Papyrus would long have been deteriorated and thus, we have a historical record of patriarchs writing, but no physical evidence. (Though Vitae A&E says Solomon saw and read the stone that Adams son Seth wrote upon).
It was in the context of these Jewish and Christian claims that language and writing of some simple form existed from the time of the first prophets onward that I said :
Clear said : “The main principles are :
1) Other written languages existed and stories/epic were written in them anciently.
2) There is no evidence that written Hebrew existed in such ancient times, biblical or otherwise.
3) IF written versions of the biblical stories existed before Hebrew existed, then they must have been written in another language.
Rosends replied : This all hinges on some very big "ifs". "If the bible wasn't originally written in Hebrew" relies on the fact that we don't have a copy and we would then be deciding what didn't exist simply because we don't have any of it.
However, we do have some versions of some sacred and some biblical traditions and histories that exist in other languages before Hebrew such as the Shabako Stone (the oldest book in the world) and its version of conditions of pre-creation time periods such as the fall of Lucifer, or the Egyptian books of the dead that reference this conflict, or the Gilgamesh epic and it’s version of the flood.
My point is that these versions of biblical traditions exist in other languages before the Hebrew versions.
Rosend, thank you so much for being logical and relevant in your claims and your points. There is much you point out that we can agree on. I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful and fascinating and insightful and joyful.
Clear
τωδρσετωω
5) JUDEO-CHRISTIAN HISTORY REGARDING Adam and Abraham and writing
I spoke in the context of the Jewish Claim that Adam and Abraham WERE taught writing and wrote texts (partly for the benefit of their descendants.)
Jewish Haggadah literature tells us that Adam knew writing and taught his descendants to write when it says : “But without the gift of the holy spirit, Adam could not have found names for all; he was in very truth a prophet, and his wisdom a prophetic quality. The names of the animals were not the only inheritance handed down by Adam to the generations after him, for mankind owes all crafts to him, especially the art of writing,..Jewish Haggadah - The Ideal Man.
Other ancient religious histories are consistent with this claim that Adam was taught writing and then taught his children to write. As Vitae Adam and Eve tells us that the son of Adam “…Seth made tablets of stone and clay, and wrote in them the life of his father Adam and his mother Eve, what he had heard from them and his eyes had seen and he put the tablets in the middle of the house of his father in the oratory where he used to pray to the Lord…”
For example, Jewish Jubilees 11 says that “...Terah took a wife and … she bore a son for him, and he called him Abram…. And the lad began understanding the straying of the land, that everyone went astray after graven images and after pollution. And his father taught him writing.” (vs 14-17)
Chapter 12 tells us Abram studied his fathers books. The translator even uses the word “hebrew” for the language but this reference is doubtful that the pagan writings from UR were actually Hebrew.
JUDEO-CHRISTIAN LITERATURE CLAIMS THAT THE PROPHETS ENOCH AND MOSES WROTE
Jubilees also tells us that from these earliest of history, others of the early prophets also wrote.
For example, of the Prophet Enoch, it was said : “… This one was the first who learned writing and knowledge and wisdom, from [among] the sons of men, from (among) those who were born upon earth. And who wrote in a book the signs of the heaven according to the order of their months, so that the sons of man might know the (appointed) times of the years according to their order, with respect to each of their months. 18.This one was the first (who) wrote a testimony and testified to the children of men throughout the generations of the earth...22 And he wrote everything, and bore witness to the Watchers Jubilees 4: 16-24;
The Prophet Enoch not only wrote in early histories, but committed his written testimonies to his descendents, saying to his children “And now, my children, place the thought on your hearts, and give heed to the sayings of your father which I am making known to you from the lips of the LORD. 2 And receive these books in your father’s handwriting, and read them. |For the books are many:| and in them you will learn all the deeds of the LORD. There have been many books since the beginning of creation, and there will be until the end of the age; but not one of them will make things as plain to you as (the books in) my handwriting. If you hold on firmly to them, you will not sin against the Lord.” 2nd Enoch 47:1-2;
We learn from the testament literature that multiple early Patriarchs made use of the written testimonies of Enoch.
Levi tells his sons, who are part of Israel, “And now, my children, I know from the writings of Enoch that in the end-time you will act impiously against the Lord, setting your hands to every evil deed; because of you, your brothers will be humiliated and among all the nations you shall become the occasion for scorn. For your father, Israel, is pure with respect to all the impieties of the chief priests, [who laid their hands on the Savior of the world,] as heaven is pure above the earth; and you should be the lights of Israel as the sun and the moon. For what will all the nations do if you become darkened with impiety? You will bring down a curse on our nation, because you want to destroy the light of the Law which was granted to you for the enlightenment of every man, teaching commandments which are opposed to God’s just ordinances. You plunder the Lord’s offerings; from his share you steal choice parts, contemptuously eating them with whores. You teach the Lord’s commands out of greed for gain; Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs- Levi 14:1-8;
In a way similar to Levi, Napthali also tells his sons, who are of Israel, “I say these things, my children, because I have read in the writings of Holy Enoch that you also will stray from the Lord, living in accord with every wickedness of the gentiles and committing every lawlessness of Sodom.” Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 4:1;
It is not merely Levi and Napthali who refer to the writings of Enoch, but similar saying are found among the other sons of Israel to their descendants. Dead Sea Scrolls 1Q AND 4Q and Geniza fragments have Levi saying to his sons, ““Consider my sons, my brother Joseph, who teaches writing and discipline and wisdom. 1Q21 Geniza Fragment, Mt Athos Greek Text, 4Q213-214, 4Q540-541
Historically, Enoch was a prolific writer, not only speaking of the evils which Israels descendants would do, but speaking to the γρεγορι the Jewish Dead Sea Scroll 4Q tells us “... in the very handwriting of Enoch the noted scribe “ and then goes to speak of evils that were done upon the earth (4Q530 Frag.2)
According to early tradition, Moses also wrote his testimony. Near the end of his life, Moses said : “The years of my life have come to an end and, in the presence of the entire community, I am going to sleep with my fathers. But (you) take this writing so that later you will remember how to preserve the books which I shall entrust to you. You shall arrange them, anoint them with cedar, and deposit them in earthenware jars in the place which (God) has chosen from the beginning of the creation of the world… Testament of Moses 1:12-17;
(It is worth noting that this is describing the very process by which the Dead Sea Scrolls were preserved for ages until finally being revealed to the world.)
Not only did Moses apparently write but there are references to written documents being necessary among his group. For example, In the Messiah’s time, the Pharisees came to him and asked : “… Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? “ The Messiah explained “…Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.) Matthew 19:7-8;
The point is that the larger histories do contain claims that writing, in some form, existed since the very beginning.
However, I agree with you that mediums such as Papyrus would long have been deteriorated and thus, we have a historical record of patriarchs writing, but no physical evidence. (Though Vitae A&E says Solomon saw and read the stone that Adams son Seth wrote upon).
It was in the context of these Jewish and Christian claims that language and writing of some simple form existed from the time of the first prophets onward that I said :
Clear said : “The main principles are :
1) Other written languages existed and stories/epic were written in them anciently.
2) There is no evidence that written Hebrew existed in such ancient times, biblical or otherwise.
3) IF written versions of the biblical stories existed before Hebrew existed, then they must have been written in another language.
Rosends replied : This all hinges on some very big "ifs". "If the bible wasn't originally written in Hebrew" relies on the fact that we don't have a copy and we would then be deciding what didn't exist simply because we don't have any of it.
However, we do have some versions of some sacred and some biblical traditions and histories that exist in other languages before Hebrew such as the Shabako Stone (the oldest book in the world) and its version of conditions of pre-creation time periods such as the fall of Lucifer, or the Egyptian books of the dead that reference this conflict, or the Gilgamesh epic and it’s version of the flood.
My point is that these versions of biblical traditions exist in other languages before the Hebrew versions.
Rosend, thank you so much for being logical and relevant in your claims and your points. There is much you point out that we can agree on. I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful and fascinating and insightful and joyful.
Clear
τωδρσετωω
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Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Greetings. I didn't write "early Christians" I wrote "early Jewish Christians." Even Christian scolars agree that that the early "Jewish" Christians did not exist at a certain point, as Clear even pointed out. I.e. by the time of the Nicene Counsel there was no indeitifiably Jewish Christian sect. If they did exist who were they and where were they?
I.e. Jews became Christians in the 1st cent. and by about the 2nd to 3rd century the are no longer identifiable as Jewish and Christian - at the same time.
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Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Greetings,
I am a Jew , and Torath Mosheh is not an obscure term to Jews and it is the most accurate way to describe me and what I am talking about. It also appears to me that there are enough people commenting on this thread, and others I have started who seem clear enough on what I am talking about.
I could make the same claim about the various factions of Christinaity - I could also make the same claim about the various religions listed here that I have never heard of.
It isn't important for me to define who they are - they are free to define themselves in whatever way is fitting and accurate and I am more than willing to accept them for who they say they are - whether I understand it or not.
For example, I have never heard of Hellenic polytheism and I have no idea what that is. Should I ask you to change it something I see fitting? Of course not.
I hope that helps.
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Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Thus, like I alluded to in a different thread, Christianity is one side of a road and Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews are in a completely different country. Christians should be happy with their place in things and Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews will remain happy where we are.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
I quote the Hebrew Tanakh to you in Hebrew. If you don't want to do the same I don't mind it. Just be prepared when I don't take you seriously - that's all.
YET, if you want to ignore me I have no problem with that all. You can ignore me any time you want. You can start ignoring me now if you like.
No fallacy there. Given that I have started at least three or four threads that you decided to comment on and I have literally never commented on any threads you have created that speaks volumes.
I.e. I am not trying to convince you to not beleive in Jesus since that is what you want to do.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
For those who don't know what I am talking about when I use the term Torath Mosheh.
The below link should help you.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXECa6N2EVJXImK1wGbwAQnGGeVPia6aE
The below link should help you.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXECa6N2EVJXImK1wGbwAQnGGeVPia6aE
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
This article may also help with understanding the position made about the Jewish Torah text.
Torat Emet - Textual Criticism Of The Torah
Torat Emet - Textual Criticism Of The Torah
So instead of simply answering the question as to what the words mean, you write paragraphs of excuses not to answer a simple and friendly question. That second sentence was just a suggestion you can take or leave. I see how it is. As for Hellenic polytheism, look it up yourself. (You might feel silly when you do, though.) I would've been glad to tell you but I treat others how they treat me.
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Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Greetings,
Your question, as written, didn't appear very friendly. If you had written, "Torath Mosheh, what is that?" then I would have given you a short answer.
Yet, the statement you included right after your question, and I quote, "I don't see the point of using obscure terms in an interfaith discussion when you can use terms more readily understood by all." didn't then, and I as read it again now, doesn't sound like a simple and friendly question at all. Besides, my response was very friendly - I started it with Greetings.
The OP explained the issue and there have been numerous video and links in this thread that explain what Torath Mosheh is and what it is not - given the topic of the OP.
Further, I don't have a problem with you ignoring me if that is what you want to do. In terms of me seeming to dictact things to others....only when it comes to Torath Mosheh. In terms of the religions that people hold by I don't dictact anything for someone else to do.
Regards,
No, your response wasn't very friendly. You basically said that you don't need to answer because Jews know what it means (even though this thread isn't directed towards Jews and you use the term in the title) and because other people use terms you don't know the meaning of. Whatever. I really don't care anymore. Google didn't help either. So it's some obscure term that some Jews like to use but don't want anyone else to know the meaning of, I guess. Have fun with that.
