Commitment to God

[Trailblazer]

Let's see... I suppose it's possible that a person might become convinced that a Messenger of God is telling them that God wants them to do something awful like fly an airplane into a building filled with innocent people. Oh wait, it's not just possible someone might, someone actually did back on 9/11. In fact I doubt there has been a single suicide bomber who wasn't convinced that a Messenger of God told them that God wanted them to kill themselves and others in His name.

Surely you see those as 'negative consequences', right?

That is the negative consequences of misinterpreting scriptures, NOT the negative consequences of following them. You cannot justly blame God or the Messenger if people misinterpret and misuse the scriptures.

So the negative consequences are all the result of human error, not God error.

 

[QuestioningMind]

That is the negative consequences of misinterpreting scriptures, NOT the negative consequences of following them. You cannot justly blame God or the Messenger if people misinterpret and misuse the scriptures.

So the negative consequences are all the result of human error, not God error.

Oh, I think you can most definitely blame the Messenger, if the message can readily be misinterpreted or misused.

And there would be no negative consequences to misinterpreting scriptures, if people didn't foolishly decide that they should follow them.

 

[Trailblazer]

It seems to me that one has to ask who sets the standards for morality, God or man.

All of the evidence suggests that man is the only one who sets moral standards all while claiming to be following what some supposed Messenger of God who told them was moral.

All the evidence suggests to me that it is God who sets the moral standards through the Messengers.
Whether people adhere to those standards or not is another matter.

However, the problem with most holy books is that they are not the direct Word of God, they are written by men who claim to speak for God.

I guess that's the problem with assuming that there are Messengers who speak for God, you end up with an endless number of supposed 'holy books'.

That is only a problem if you do not understand the limitations of certain holy books.
It is also a problem if you believe books are holy that are not holy.

Another problem is that the Laws of most holy book's were written to apply to past ages, not the present age, so how can we know what God's standards of morality are for this age?

Yet some of those holy books claim that God's standards for morality are unchangeable.

It is not the holy books that make that claim, it is the people who believe in those holy books.
What those religious believers believe is illogical, that God's Laws would not be subject to change over time,
but they believe that because they believe their religion is the only true religion, which is also illogical.

Are we going to put homosexuals and adulterers to death because of the Laws in the OT?

According to those who say the a Messenger of God states that God's morals are unchangeable and apply just as much today as they did in the past, yes they should. There are nations that do that all the time.

You cannot blame God for that, because God revealed a new religion through a new Messenger and there are new laws that abrogate the laws of past religions. It is completely illogical to believe that the laws revealed over 4000 years ago would apply to present-day society, but we both know that not most believers operate on logic.

Was that ever moral? Are those Laws even God's Laws, or are they the words of men?

I've yet to see any evidence that there even is a God let alone God's Law. All holy books are the product of men and contain the words of men.

That is true, but some men who wrote holy books were also Messengers of God. Actually, there are only two Messengers of God who wrote their own scriptures, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

Perhaps there is a god and perhaps that god is the source of truth. But until this god comes down and personally clarifies what the 'truth' is, all we have is our own sense of empathy to decide what's right and what's wrong.

God cannot "come down" because God is Spirit. That is one reason among many that God sends Messengers to represent Him. Another reason is that it is totally unnecessary for God to put in a personal appearance, since God can send one Messenger to speak for Him in every age. It is up to humans to figure out who that Messenger is, and I am not saying it is as easy as falling off a log. I am only saying it is possible to make that determination. Otherwise, God would be unjust for expecting us to recognize His Messenger.

The Messenger of God method clearly didn't work, since there are plenty of people who follow religions that claim their holy book is the ONLY source for making choices.

The Messenger of God method didn't work as well as it was designed to work, but not because the method was faulty, but rather because the people are faulty. It is the religious believers who follow religions that claim their holy book is the ONLY source for making choices. Those holy books do not claim they are the only truth for all time. In those holy books it says they are the truth, but it does not say it is the only truth for all time. It requires an unbiased and logical person to grasp the concept of religious dispensations.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

By an arrangement of God the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is only according to one religion at a time. Thus each religion only applies to the age (dispensation) in which it is revealed. The obvious problem is that religious believers do not believe this, so they continue to cling to their older religions that were revealed for a past age of history. It is as if they are living in a time warp -- God has moved on and revealed a new religion but they are still stuck in the past.

Once a Messenger of God has completed His Mission on earth, what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Messenger of God appears. Moreover, every time God sends a new Messenger, His Revelation abrogates all the Revelations that came before it and the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is according to the religion that He establishes. That means that the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is through the latest Messenger of God. I believe that Messenger was Baha'u'llah.

 

[Bird123]

To commit once life to God (for believers) take a lot of effort, to come to a point where you say, "Ok God" i give my life in service to you. From today, what ever happens i lay my full faith in you.

But it does not end there, that is only the beginning. From that day, you know life will change, if you do those changes in your life, soul searching to empty your mind of bad habbits and to serve God in a righterous way. It is truly difficult to stay focused and ready when life get hard or difficult.

Why is it so hard? Because your ego tells you about all the fun things, the food you can not eat, the partys you can not go to.
Or that if you just relax a little it is ok.

Commitment to God is truly difficult, but the reward is amazing, if one make it.

Any thoughts?

Questionsoes God really need anyone serving Him? Has God ever showed up at your door and said: Serve me, or Follow me, or do not have fun, or do not party, or do not eat or even do not have sex?
It's not going to happen!!

God will never intimidate or coerce your choices as religion has done so often.

Contrary to popular belief, this physical world has not been created for God. God created this physical universe for us. It's time-based causal nature is perfect for learning.

Free will is an important part of the learning process. If you limit choices, one will choose the opposite as soon as they are free to choose just to Discover what they are missing.

Do not limit yourself. Venture out and Discover for yourself what the best choices really are. When you really Understand all sides, intelligence will make the best choices. The bad choices will no longer be viable choices you could make. It will no longer be hard.

We were never meant to never have fun, never have sex, never laugh and enjoy the diversity of interacting with others, never enjoy food or even never dance.

This reminds me of a story. A good lady friend and I were going to give to feeding hungry people. WE both brought out items the next day. I gave beans. She gave coffee. I could not believe it. I asked her how could you give coffee? We are trying to keep these people alive. Her answer not only surprised me but really gave me a different view. She said she gave them something for their soul. She knows how nice a cup of warm coffee can be.

In short, a person is more than following and restricting their lives. We are all meant to soar. Smell the roses. Great things are around us all. They are meant to be enjoyed.

Be who you must! It's a part of the plan!! I'm not worried. You will in time Discover the best choices and what choices do not bring good results. Lead with that intellect and your results will always be outstanding.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh, I think you can most definitely blame the Messenger, if the message can readily be misinterpreted or misused.

I consider that absurd and unjust to blame the Messenger for human errors. There can be no "magical message" that is completely immune to being misinterpreted or misused by humans because humans are fallible beings.

Regarding human fallibility, here is a case in point: It was clear to anyone with a thinking mind that that the U.S. election was not 'stolen' by Biden, but look at how many people believed that, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. The message was as clear as the noonday sun in Arizona, but people just ignored all the evidence.

The messages of the older religions such as were in the Bible and even the Qur'an were misinterpreted and misused because they were unclear as to the meanings and there were no interpreters of those scriptures, but this is a new age and we have new scriptures that are clear and easy to understand; and for those who cannot understand the original scriptures, there were appointed interpreters of those scriptures.

And there would be no negative consequences to misinterpreting scriptures, if people didn't foolishly decide that they should follow them.

Blanket statements are never logical. What you said is illogical on its face. That would be like me saying there can be no negative consequences of driving a car, such as getting in an accident, if I did not foolishly decide to drive a car. Therefore I should never drive a car because I might get in an accident.

There are even more reasons that what you said is illogical

First, even if people misinterpret some of their scriptures that does not mean they misinterpret all of the scriptures, so there are still many scriptures they understood correctly, scriptures that have great value..

Second, I could just as easily say that there would be no positive consequences to correctly interpreting the scriptures that they correctly interpreted, so people are foolish not to follow any scriptures.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Questionsoes God really need anyone serving Him? Has God ever showed up at your door and said: Serve me, or Follow me, or do not have fun, or do not party, or do not eat or even do not have sex?
It's not going to happen!!

God will never intimidate or coerce your choices as religion has done so often.

Contrary to popular belief, this physical world has not been created for God. God created this physical universe for us. It's time-based causal nature is perfect for learning.

Free will is an important part of the learning process. If you limit choices, one will choose the opposite as soon as they are free to choose just to Discover what they are missing.

Do not limit yourself. Venture out and Discover for yourself what the best choices really are. When you really Understand all sides, intelligence will make the best choices. The bad choices will no longer be viable choices you could make. It will no longer be hard.

We were never meant to never have fun, never have sex, never laugh and enjoy the diversity of interacting with others, never enjoy food or even never dance.

This reminds me of a story. A good lady friend and I were going to give to feeding hungry people. WE both brought out items the next day. I gave beans. She gave coffee. I could not believe it. I asked her how could you give coffee? We are trying to keep these people alive. Her answer not only surprised me but really gave me a different view. She said she gave them something for their soul. She knows how nice a cup of warm coffee can be.

In short, a person is more than following and restricting their lives. We are all meant to soar. Smell the roses. Great things are around us all. They are meant to be enjoyed.

Be who you must! It's a part of the plan!! I'm not worried. You will in time Discover the best choices and what choices do not bring good results. Lead with that intellect and your results will always be outstanding.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

A muslim serve Allah as long we are on earth. In the way we follow the teaching, and always purify our mind to become without sin. Of course not everyone do it good, and they let ego take over. And they no longer serve allah they way it was meant.

I enjoy life more now than before i become a muslim. To obey Allah is to me, to do good to others

 

[QuestioningMind]

God cannot "come down" because God is Spirit. That is one reason among many that God sends Messengers to represent Him. Another reason is that it is totally unnecessary for God to put in a personal appearance, since God can send one Messenger to speak for Him in every age. It is up to humans to figure out who that Messenger is, and I am not saying it is as easy as falling off a log. I am only saying it is possible to make that determination. Otherwise, God would be unjust for expecting us to recognize His Messenger.

The Messenger of God method didn't work as well as it was designed to work, but not because the method was faulty, but rather because the people are faulty. It is the religious believers who follow religions that claim their holy book is the ONLY source for making choices. Those holy books do not claim they are the only truth for all time. In those holy books it says they are the truth, but it does not say it is the only truth for all time. It requires an unbiased and logical person to grasp the concept of religious dispensations.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

By an arrangement of God the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is only according to one religion at a time. Thus each religion only applies to the age (dispensation) in which it is revealed. The obvious problem is that religious believers do not believe this, so they continue to cling to their older religions that were revealed for a past age of history. It is as if they are living in a time warp -- God has moved on and revealed a new religion but they are still stuck in the past.

Once a Messenger of God has completed His Mission on earth, what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Messenger of God appears. Moreover, every time God sends a new Messenger, His Revelation abrogates all the Revelations that came before it and the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is according to the religion that He establishes. That means that the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is through the latest Messenger of God. I believe that Messenger was Baha'u'llah.

The Messenger of God method didn't work as well as it was designed to work, but not because the method was faulty, but rather because the people are faulty.

Sorry, but if the method didn't take into account the fact that the recipients of the message were flawed, it seems like the method was flawed. And if this method was 'intended' to work better than it has that suggests that your creator god was surprised to discovered just how flawed his creations are.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Messenger of God method didn't work as well as it was designed to work, but not because the method was faulty, but rather because the people are faulty.

Sorry, but if the method didn't take into account the fact that the recipients of the message were flawed, it seems like the method was flawed.

I never said that the people are flawed, I said that humans are fallible, so they make mistakes and fail to recognize the Messengers.

And if this method was 'intended' to work better than it has that suggests that your creator god was surprised to discovered just how flawed his creations are.

That is what you apparently do not understand. An All-Knowing God can never be surprised because He knows everything that will happen, before, during and after it transpires in this world. Also, since God created humans (through evolution) God knows exactly what their nature is, so God knows that many will fail to recognize His Messengers.

Obviously, since God is omnipotent and omniscient, God could use another method to communicate, IF it mattered to God that all people get His message. But it does not matter to God if everyone gets the message, because God is fully self-sufficient and fully self-sustaining.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I consider that absurd and unjust to blame the Messenger for human errors. There can be no "magical message" that is completely immune to being misinterpreted or misused by humans because humans are fallible beings.

Regarding human fallibility, here is a case in point: It was clear to anyone with a thinking mind that that the U.S. election was not 'stolen' by Biden, but look at how many people believed that, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. The message was as clear as the noonday sun in Arizona, but people just ignored all the evidence.

The messages of the older religions such as were in the Bible and even the Qur'an were misinterpreted and misused because they were unclear as to the meanings and there were no interpreters of those scriptures, but this is a new age and we have new scriptures that are clear and easy to understand; and for those who cannot understand the original scriptures, there were appointed interpreters of those scriptures.

Blanket statements are never logical. What you said is illogical on its face. That would be like me saying there can be no negative consequences of driving a car, such as getting in an accident, if I did not foolishly decide to drive a car. Therefore I should never drive a car because I might get in an accident.

There are even more reasons that what you said is illogical

First, even if people misinterpret some of their scriptures that does not mean they misinterpret all of the scriptures, so there are still many scriptures they understood correctly, scriptures that have great value..

Second, I could just as easily say that there would be no positive consequences to correctly interpreting the scriptures that they correctly interpreted, so people are foolish not to follow any scriptures.

That would be like me saying there can be no negative consequences of driving a car, such as getting in an accident, if I did not foolishly decide to drive a car. Therefore I should never drive a car because I might get in an accident.

That statement is perfectly logical. If you never drive a car you'll never get into a car accident. However, many people are willing to take the risk because they need to drive a car. Personally I see absolutely no reason why anyone would need to look to scriptures in order to figure out what's right and wrong when we're all born with the ability to empathize.

 

[Trailblazer]

That would be like me saying there can be no negative consequences of driving a car, such as getting in an accident, if I did not foolishly decide to drive a car. Therefore I should never drive a car because I might get in an accident.

That statement is perfectly logical. If you never drive a car you'll never get into a car accident. However, many people are willing to take the risk because they need to drive a car. Personally I see absolutely no reason why anyone would need to look to scriptures in order to figure out what's right and wrong when we're all born with the ability to empathize.

The ability to empathize with others might be inborn, but it must be developed.
Empathy is not the same as morality as empathetic people are not necessarily moral..

Are you born with empathy or is it learned?

Empathy is learned behavior even though the capacity for it is inborn. The best way to think about empathy is an innate capacity that needs to be developed, and to see it as a detail in a larger picture. ... In time, that seed grows into empathy and the capacity for intimate connection. (This is called secure attachment.)Jan 23, 2017

6 Things You Need to Know About Empathy | Psychology Today

Personally, I believe that the only reason most people are moral is because of those scriptures. Babies are not born with morals, so they had to learn them from someone. If they learned it from parents and teachers, those individuals were most likely influenced by a religion. So how do you explain the fact that atheists have good morals? Well, dollars to donuts most of them were raised in a religion and even if they were born into an atheist family, they would have absorbed religious values through the society they lived in.

Where do moral values come from?

One answer to this is that moral values come from religions, transmitted through sacred texts and religious authorities, and that even the values of non-religious people have been absorbed from the religious history around them.

Where does morality come from? - FutureLearn

How do we develop morals?

Morality develops across a lifetime and is influenced by an individual's experiences and their behavior when faced with moral issues through different periods' physical and cognitive development.

Moral development - Wikipedia

 

[QuestioningMind]

I never said that the people are flawed, I said that humans are fallible, so they make mistakes and fail to recognize the Messengers.

That is what you apparently do not understand. An All-Knowing God can never be surprised because He knows everything that will happen, before, during and after it transpires in this world. Also, since God created humans (through evolution) God knows exactly what their nature is, so God knows that many will fail to recognize His Messengers.

Obviously, since God is omnipotent and omniscient, God could use another method to communicate, IF it mattered to God that all people get His message. But it does not matter to God if everyone gets the message, because God is fully self-sufficient and fully self-sustaining.

Then apparently you misspoke when you said: The Messenger of God method didn't work as well as it was designed to work, but not because the method was faulty, but rather because the people are faulty.

If it didn't work as well as God had designed it to work then clearly God didn't take into account faulty people when he made the design. Otherwise it would have worked precisely as well as God designed it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then apparently you misspoke when you said: The Messenger of God method didn't work as well as it was designed to work, but not because the method was faulty, but rather because the people are faulty.

If it didn't work as well as God had designed it to work then clearly God didn't take into account faulty people when he made the design. Otherwise it would have worked precisely as well as God designed it.

God did take into account faulty people when He made the design.
God did not design it with the expectation that the 'faulty people' would recognize the Messenger.
God knew only the sincere seekers of truth would recognize the Messenger.
Thus the Method worked precisely as God designed it to work, as it separated the wheat from the chaff.

 

[QuestioningMind]

The ability to empathize with others might be inborn, but it must be developed.
Empathy is not the same as morality as empathetic people are not necessarily moral..

Are you born with empathy or is it learned?

Empathy is learned behavior even though the capacity for it is inborn. The best way to think about empathy is an innate capacity that needs to be developed, and to see it as a detail in a larger picture. ... In time, that seed grows into empathy and the capacity for intimate connection. (This is called secure attachment.)Jan 23, 2017

6 Things You Need to Know About Empathy | Psychology Today

Personally, I believe that the only reason most people are moral is because of those scriptures. Babies are not born with morals, so they had to learn them from someone. If they learned it from parents and teachers, those individuals were most likely influenced by a religion. So how do you explain the fact that atheists have good morals? Well, dollars to donuts most of them were raised in a religion and even if they were born into an atheist family, they would have absorbed religious values through the society they lived in.

Where do moral values come from?

One answer to this is that moral values come from religions, transmitted through sacred texts and religious authorities, and that even the values of non-religious people have been absorbed from the religious history around them.

Where does morality come from? - FutureLearn

How do we develop morals?

Morality develops across a lifetime and is influenced by an individual's experiences and their behavior when faced with moral issues through different periods' physical and cognitive development.

Moral development - Wikipedia

There's no question that a person's empathy has to be developed. That doesn't change the fact that I'd much rather have a person use their well developed sense of empathy to determine what's morally right than to have a person replying on what someone wrote in an old book to determine what's morally right. Especially when so many of those old books advocate for things like slavery or treating females as second class citizens.

 

[QuestioningMind]

God did take into account faulty people when He made the design.
God did not design it with the expectation that the 'faulty people' would recognize the Messenger.
God knew only the sincere seekers of truth would recognize the Messenger.
Thus the Method worked precisely as God designed it to work, as it separated the wheat from the chaff.

Okay, then you DID misspeak when you said that the method didn't work as well as it was designed, since now you're saying that it worked PRECISELY as God designed it to work.

 

[Trailblazer]

There's no question that a person's empathy has to be developed. That doesn't change the fact that I'd much rather have a person use their well developed sense of empathy to determine what's morally right than to have a person replying on what someone wrote in an old book to determine what's morally right. Especially when so many of those old books advocate for things like slavery or treating females as second class citizens.

I fully agree. I would not rely upon old books like the Bible to determine what is morally right, as we now have newer books to help us determine that, books that prohibit slavery and teach the equality of men and women, among other things.

Still, we have to use our own judgment and follow our conscience, because we alone are responsible for our actions.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, then you DID misspeak when you said that the method didn't work as well as it was designed, since now you're saying that it worked PRECISELY as God designed it to work.

Apparently I did misspeak. All humans make mistakes since we are fallible.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I fully agree. I would not rely upon old books like the Bible to determine what is morally right, as we now have newer books to help us determine that, books that prohibit slavery and teach the equality of men and women, among other things.

Still, we have to use our own judgment and follow our conscience, because we alone are responsible for our actions.

If the old books got it so wrong, why should anyone expect the new books to do any better?

 

[Trailblazer]

If the old books got it so wrong, why should anyone expect the new books to do any better?

The old books were written for a different age in history, and maybe slavery and subjugation of women was what was needed in those ages. That was thousands of years ago, so how can we really know what people and the world they lived in were like back then?

The new books were written for the age we live in, so the teachings and laws as well as the new message from God were written for people living in this age

Christians and Jews cling to old books that have outdated teachings and laws because they do not want to relinquish their older religions and accept a new religion, because they believe their religion is the only true religion. It is as if they are living in a time warp, following books that do not apply to the modern age. But time does not stop; time kept moving on and they got left behind.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

 

[rational experiences]

As a human. Born a baby by human sex. I live loving honouring my parents.

A human teaching. Babies taught spirituality...human. by parents.

Infer God. Then you infer science and not self. Rational natural aware human advice.

Who changed body mass of earth?

A mass that natural law vacuum gave presence and holding of form to?

The father man adult self.

Babies don't do science

Basic human information in consciousness is supposed to be referenced first.

A lot of humans reference science first.

Science...a human thinking did not invent my life.

Now science said when ground dust chemicals and minerals changed in a sun attack on earth was when light became active......they lied.

Removal of origin of sin...sink holes was activated.

Science thesis human was vi Sion ary.

Mountain peak on a flooded earth disintegrating to a flat top.

Law stone first broken. Fission.

Equalled a human design nuclear pyramid science. Designer human.

Gas in vacuum burnt in history first naturally. Is not a sun attack to earth.

Natural light in space natural.

If night time conditions did not exist then nor would balanced life exist on earth. Our teachings.

So mother of God vacuum causes was given highest status in science.

Vi 6 son ary I.

Is a human a mountain disintegrating law broken stone? Just water atop stone...no more reactive converting.

No.

A man adult self however references that scientific advice.

Where is his owned natural life living recording image voice situated?

With him. A vision. Vision what he used his own self to get science design.

Did he falsely encode our brain psyche by AI machine converting reactivation against natural vacuum ownership?

Yes

How falsified conscious human expressed ideals came from.

Anyone would think a non peak was where all spirits first emerged out of a God UFO mass radiation Ark,?

Lying.

Microbes and water first. In water.

Science quotes life came out of the water. A science quote. We live inside water. We use water to remain alive. Replacement.

Water is taken from us. Proof to self radiation causes water to change.

Are you personally there scientist brother in reality? In water mass?

No. I am not water mass itself.

Science quotes no human came out of a UFO Ark God mass radiation release. Thinking like we all do first.

Correct thinker.

New earth flood. Involved new cloud increased mass via pyramid burning atmospheric gases. When ground images appeared in clouds. When nature living life was saved.

Boarding Ark 2x2 science quote. They built the ark from God converting wisdom. Stone and gas mass. The spirits. Science as science got warned they were destroying life and mind. Humans became depraved.

Science took no notice of its warnings. Humans saw the ark conditions manifest as they were phenomena attacked. Science built it.

Changes in nature wood life proved it. Bushes ignited set on fire when recorded science man voice got heard speaking.

Documented advice. Brain chemical irradiation also. Reason to hear voice unnaturally.

Spiritual father human memory advice. Do not give God any name and never change earth mass again.

Attending mass. Agreement to love honour family a ritual.