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How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
To everyone. This thread can go on for days.

Christians. You have a better chance of convincing each other of Jesus than you do of convincing any Torath Mosheh Jew. Essentially, you don't have the skill set that Hashem required to try to prove the Jesus story to Torath Mosheh Jews. Your predecessors have tried for about 1,700 years and failed. So, that being said this thread ends up being a waste of time.

What are you doing with the skill set that you have? Sharing the good news? Are you acting as the 'apple of God's eye'?

You're doing what you consider to be right; you're following the Law. But didn't anyone tell you that following the law is not an act of faith?

God said it clearly, when Moses prophesied, 'I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a froward generation, children in whom is no faith. They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.' [Deuteronomy 32:20,21]
 
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Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
I mean, I think we all know what a king is. Canada doesn't have a king. (Technically it has a queen). So the term just doesn't apply to a non-monarchy.
Imagine the only word for national leader you have is 'king'.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
It's implied. The Bible speaks in indirect language. Even when admitting he was the Messiah, Jesus subtly said I am he, and only in response to the woman saying that the coming Messiah would be explaining everything to them. Bible Gateway passage: John 4:1-42 - New International Version

It's only "implied" if you already believe Jesus is the Messiah and you're looking for ways to make that prophecy fit what's said about him in the Gospels.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Here's the JPS reading of Micah 5:2 (1).
'And you, O Bethlehem of Ephrath,
Least among the clans of Judah,
From you one shall come forth
To rule Israel for Me-
One whose origin is from old,
From ancient times.'

The side note states that this is a reference to David, from Bethlehem in Judah. It is linked to the coming of the Messiah after the birth pangs, or 9 months of hardship shown to Israel.

Clearly the Messiah, David, will be born in Bethlehem.
The JPS 1917 (the one you're quoting) is basically the ASV with the Christian edits edited out.

Anyway, yes, it says that the one to rule Israel would come out of Bethlehem. But it means via Jesse who was from Bethlehem.
The prophets use the towns, cities and countries anthropomorphically to refer to the people who populate them. You can see this again just a few verses earlier when the prophet says that Zion would crush many people. It doesn't mean that the city would physically life out of the ground and kill people. It means that the people of Zion would win those wars. Over here also, it's not speaking to the literal city, but to the well-known man who lived in Bethlehem, Jesse.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Well, it doesn't mean that for all sorts of reasons...

Jesus is the everlasting Father because his essence and nature is the same. Its like how a president and the people they rule over are different in terms of authority and submission but their essence and nature does't differ. Jesus Christ – Son of God or God the Son?

Jesus the Son is coequal with the Father in essence and nature

Finally, Jesus as the Son asserts that he is equal to the Father in power and dignity, being able to do everything that God can do:

"So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. Jesus said to them, ‘My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.’ For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus gave them this answer: ‘I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because WHATEVER the Father does the Son ALSO DOES. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. For JUST AS the Father raises the dead and gives them life, EVEN SO the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son JUST AS they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear HIS VOICE and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned." John 5:16-29

Here, the Lord informs his opponents that as the Son he does not act independently from the Father, but only works in perfect union with him. As he says elsewhere:

"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me." John 6:38

And as the beloved Son he has the same Divine right to work on the Sabbath that his Father has, even though everyone else is subject to the Sabbath rules imposed by God.

As if this weren’t astonishing enough, Christ says that he is able to give life to the dead, just as the Father can, and is the very One who will raise the dead spiritually and physically, a point he makes elsewhere:

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:39-40

The Lord further says that all must honor him just as they honor the Father, which means that Christ is demanding people to worship him as they do the Father since this is the kind of honor that the latter receives. It is little wonder that the Jews concluded that Christ was making himself equal with God.

The Lord Jesus had more to say to his opponents:

"My sheep listen to MY VOICE; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one.’" John 10:27-30

Christ says that he is one with the Father in the context of preserving and giving believers eternal life, all of which are Divine functions according to the Hebrew Scriptures.

"See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand." Deuteronomy 32:39

"There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God… The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up." 1 Samuel 2:2, 6

"For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah, as on the day at Massah in the wilderness," Psalm 95:7-8 ESV

"Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?" Isaiah 43:13

Amazingly, Jesus ascribes to his own Person everything which these Scriptures attribute to Yahweh, such as:

  • The sheep hear Jesus’ voice.
  • No one can pluck the sheep out of Jesus’ hand.
  • Jesus gives his sheep eternal life.
Moreover, the OT says that there is no person who can perform works in the same way that Yahweh does:

"Among the gods there is none like you, O Lord; no deeds can compare with yours. All the nations you have made will come and worship before you, O Lord; they will bring glory to your name. For you are great and do marvelous deeds; you alone are God." Psalm 86:8

"For who in the skies above can compare with the LORD? Who is like the LORD among the heavenly beings? In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared; he is more awesome than all who surround him. O LORD God Almighty, who is like you? You are mighty, O LORD, and your faithfulness surrounds you." Psalm 89:6-8

And yet Jesus does exactly what Yahweh does! The reason why he can? Because he is Yahweh God the Son. To put this in the form of syllogism:

  1. No one can do the works that God performs, especially in the manner in which Yahweh performs them.
  2. Jesus does whatever work can God do, and performs such works in exactly the same way.
  3. Therefore, Jesus is Yahweh God.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It's only "implied" if you already believe Jesus is the Messiah and you're looking for ways to make that prophecy fit what's said about him in the Gospels.

The Messiah being God, by default, would imply a virgin birth. Many things in the Scriptures are implied but not stated directly.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
But it wasn't. Even in ancient Israel they were aware of other non-king kinds of leaders. The Tanakh describes how Israel got a king and what its governance was like before then.
There were no political systems like we have back then - any word they could possibly used would seem out of place to us.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
The JPS 1917 (the one you're quoting) is basically the ASV with the Christian edits edited out.

Anyway, yes, it says that the one to rule Israel would come out of Bethlehem. But it means via Jesse who was from Bethlehem.
The prophets use the towns, cities and countries anthropomorphically to refer to the people who populate them. You can see this again just a few verses earlier when the prophet says that Zion would crush many people. It doesn't mean that the city would physically life out of the ground and kill people. It means that the people of Zion would win those wars. Over here also, it's not speaking to the literal city, but to the well-known man who lived in Bethlehem, Jesse.

Jesus was a descendant of Jesse. Because he was God, Joseph was his step father.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
What is your definition of a Jew?
and ask Chocolate or Vanilla

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Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I ask because there are some pretty bizarre definitions of 'Jew' floating around in Christian and Messianic circle. Everyone wants to write themselves into your (Jewish) narrative, on their terms.

A Messianic Jew is a Jew religiously, ethnically, and maybe culturally. Some Messianic Jews are not ethnically Jewish but married into the faith.
 
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